Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M80s and Denon 2808CI

Hello all,

After what seems like forever, last week I finally placed my
order through the Factory Outlet Shop: VP150, QS8s, EP350, and
M60s.

In anticipation of arrival 3 weeks from now, I've been reading
all of the posts comparing M60s and M80s. Worried that I am
going to eventually be hit with the upgrade bug, I've been
thinking about ordering the M80s now.

I have a Denon 2808CI. Reading through the users manual, I've
found that they are rated for 6 - 8 ohm speakers. However, there
is a mention of 4 ohm speakers and the possibility of
over-heating/auto shutdown.

Is anyone running the 2808CI with the M80s? Is overheating an
issue? How about distortion?

I can swing the extra $$$ for the M80s, but I've only had the
2808CI about six months, and my wife won't go for a new receiver.

I'd love to order the M80s, but if they are not
compatible/optimal for my current AVR, I'd be happy with the
M60s.

Thanks in advance.

You'll be just fine with the 2808Ci. Denons are often referenced around here as being quite stable with M80s. If you find it's not loud enough without distorting (as in, you're pushing +10 on the receiver), you can always add an outboard amp.

The Denon will be fine! And Welcome!

ditto what they said.

The key is not to let any amplifier enter clipping when playing anything. I never allow my amp to start distorting no matter how loud I might want it to go. Nobody here will argue with this.

*** Unless your as good as Jimi Henrix was using it to it's fullest potential. These aren't Marshall stacks but dang they sound like em alot.

Thanks guys.

I like loud, but probably not as loud as some other folks. Loud for me is probably between 0 and +5. Probably wouldn't go up to a +10 and definitely not for a sustained period of time.

I agree, any hints of clipping would immediately get turned down.

Hopefully all of my mp3s wont sound bad because of the clarity of the speakers.

I called in and upgraded to the M80s. Only 3 weeks to go!!

Uh oh.

What's the bitrate on your MP3's? Axiom speakers are going to reveal everything. GIGO. Axioms have a big "Wow Factor" with good recordings, but are not terribly forgiving of suboptimal source material.

I think you will find you won't be running the Denon at 0 or +5 much with the Axioms, they are more sensitive than many other speakers, I hit about 98 db cleanly with my old Denon 1804 and that was very loud in my room , I can now hit around 105 deepnding on the material with the 3808 and that is still around 0 on the volume control.

I trust your MP3s are ripped to at least 128K or higher, otherwise you will find them to sound bad. The M60s are slightly more forgiving IMO and might have been a better choice to stick with, I think I would have stayed the course and had a listen to the M60s as to whether or not you NEEDED to upgrade to the M80s, if your main source is lower grade MP3s.

If you have the money spend it on the speakers and work on the rest as you go. You will rarely regret it. They are THE main puzzle piece. In this case you have the satisfaction of having the best mains Axiom offers. Peace of mind is worth alot, imo.

mattress, coffee cup and speakers...do it as right as ya can.

Most of my mp3s are encoded at 192K or higher; about 25% are encoded at 128K, but none lower. I've listened to them through Audio Technica noise-canceling headphones, and most of the sound pretty clean. Hopefully the M80s don't make them sound too bad and I can still bear to listen them through the Axioms.

Jay,

I was going back and forth on weather to audition the M60s and most likely would have been happy with them. But its that never knowing what you don't have. Most reviews I've read have them pretty close with differences being at high levels and clarity at lower levels.

I have a 1 year old, so most of my movie watching is when she is asleep. She can sleep through noise, but I won't be cranking the volume while she is sleeping. I'll appreciate the clarity at lower levels.

Also, by the time you pay return shipping, you've paid a good portion of the price difference.


I was all set and happy with the M60s, but too much free time and reading convinced me that M80s were the way to go. But if most music will sound better through the M60s, I'm not too sure.

And you guys actually wonder why people can't make up their minds.

Hey Stain and welcome! I'm sure you'll have plenty of time to change your mind about a million times before your speakers are ready to be shipped. Stick around and ask a LOT of questions. These guys just LOVE that!

I have a 2309 that I will be driving my M80's with when they get here. I've been assured many times (and even from the Denon Tech Support) that a Denon will have no problems with the M80.

What color did you get?

I got the Boston Cherry. They should match the rest of my furniture.

I am drooling over the real wood finishes but don't have the money for them. Looking at the pictures of the rosewood finish in the forum's gallery, they look nice. I love the extra touches with custom serial, coverings, and cases for feet. Definitely worth the money.

Bob,

Ive read some of you post and your decision making process. When the speakers come, you'll have to let me know how they sound with the 2309.

Stain, Don't get me wrong the M80s do have have a thing or 2 over the M60 and I would be very surprised if you didn't think the M80s sound great even with MP3s, you will find that they sound even better with a more full range source, the actual cd or higher bit rate MP3. I just think we may push people over their budgets to get the M80s, when they really would have just been as happy with the M60s, you never know what you are missing sort of thing.

A few years ago most talk here was of the M60s, then upgraditis hit the group and the M80 has become the defacto standard most of us have.

So far as paying to return the M60s, you would have only paid the difference in price between the 2, shipping both ways would have been free.

Anyway from what you have described as mostly lower volume listening, the M80 IS the speaker you want.

Some observations on Stain, Bob and me just for fun.

Bob don't take this wrong ok but you have over 400 posts in your search here for info before buying and that's just fine. It's your journey. What I like reading here is the common themes
that so many share. It's so interesting...each person's journey.

Many of us did our due diligence took axiom at their word and trusted the owners posts here too.

I bought mine the way stain did ...almost no posts or inquiries. Just lurking, reading this site and some others and hit the buy button. Damn the torpedoes! This is gonna be fun to TEST these puppies to see if they can be as good as they are being touted.

Now here's my kicker. I have been in the audio-video world and biz since 1976 at the tender age of 14.
I ordered the Ascend 170's to just compare for safety's sake.

I DIDN'T EVEN OPEN THE 170 BOXES! Sent them back.

That's how good they are for the money. But I had all my experience to tell me that. Just a cool story for ya's.

Rock on...or jazz or classical or w/e.

PS. I forgot about the fact that Axiom's are so nice at normal and low levels. I don't know how Ian got every facet of these speakers so right but he did.

Hey Dude,
Thanks for your keen observations of my post count. I am trying to figure out what that is about and why your post is addressed to me in the first place.

So, some observations, just for fun.
I registered on this Forum on Dec 26, 2008. (Two days after I purchased a Denon 2309) I made my purchase of a pair of M80's and an EP-350 on Jan. 12, 2009 (at 5:10 PM EST) I have absolutely no idea how many posts I was at when I made my Axiom purchase, but since you brought it up for some reason, I can assure you that I was no where near 400 posts at that time.

Just for more fun, I'm happy to let you know that 2 days later, (Jan 14, 2009 at 11:12AM) I upgraded my order to include 2 QS8's and a VP-150. I also have no idea how many posts I had then.

I haven't been the most patient in waiting for my order and many here would think that an understatement. It would have been so much easier to get the speakers right away instead of waiting from the Outlet Store. I would have had my speakers by now and would probably be really enjoying them. Glad that you are enjoying yours.

So I hope you have enjoyed reading about my journey as much as I have enjoyed telling it.

For further info check the thread titled: Why Axiom

Thanks Bob for the background. Interesting stuff.
Sounds like you are learning alot and that's usually fun.
I paid full boat because I know myself pretty good. I don't do waiting very well on certain things in life.

We can all appreciate the anxiety of your purchase though.
Tick Tock

Bob, I have to say I have had the most fun reading your posts and enquiries, inspite of the way some of my responses may have come across. You appear to have a passion for this and I think you are actually enjoying your time searching for information. Keep it up even after the speakers arrive

As a charter and sustaining member of the M60 posse, I absolutely agree.

M60's are great speakers, especially at low volume levels. They are also somewhat easier to place; the M80's extra 2" in depth may or may not matter in your room.

Don't worry. Be happy.

Turtle: I disagree whole heartily, M80s are the best bang for the buck Axiom offers.

Speaking of placement, what is the recommended distance to the wall? 6 in?

Rick, I think the Forum is the best bang for the buck Axiom offers.



Stain, I'll defer to actual M80 owners

I think I have my M60's about a foot away. Really, there is no absolute. How the speakers sound is going to depend as much on their proximity to the other adjacent surfaces. Your room, your ears.

What ever makes them sound the best in your room is the required amount. I am stuck with a poor placement and they still sound great, mine are about 3-6 inches away.

Welcome and congrats on your order.

Thanks DG.

I hate having free time on my hands. I keep reading posts and going back and forth between M60s and M80s.....

The only thing that worries me now about the M80s besides the sound quality of the mp3s is the heat generated from pushing 4 ohm speakers. My cabinet is one of the enclosed entertainment centers with glass doors on the front. The receiver gets warm to the touch pushing my current speakers, some 10 year old Sony tower speakers. I know lots of people are running Denon AVRs without problems but does anyone's receiver get hot at all? I cant take the doors off of my entertainment center because my kid would be all over the pretty lights.

From what I have read, everyone seems to be happy with both.

And just think...only 3 weeks till they ship. Enough time for me to over think things and change my mind a million times.

You could take the doors off, kids do learn not to touch things, eventually. They are only buttons etc, they really can't do much damage to anything. Another possibility would be a cooling fan mounted to the cabinet to move some air out of the cabinet. My Denon is in the open so I can't really comment, it just gets a little warm.

Those older Sony speakers might not be as efficient as the M80s and require more power. What are their ratings?

My PSB's are also low ohm and my Denon 3300 does get hot. I used to have it in a closed cabinet and had to add a cooling fan to keep it cool. Now it is open air, so no issues, but better start looking for a fan if you want to protect your AVR from heat and little fingers. And yes, little fingers can F up a Denon AVR - been there, done that.

Oh!!!!!!!!!! And it starts already!!!!!!!!!! I did warn ya!!!!

Don't worry! These guys have the patience of SAINTS and will be with you every step of you changing your mind. They actually like that! (I think?) They feed these little dastardly thoughts into your pretty little head for weeks and then POW!!!! They let you have it like it's all YOUR fault. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I had to let that out. I had a Mitsubishi back in the day. Had a big volume knob. I drilled a hole in the knob and one in the face of the receiver and put a screw in each hole that couldn't pass each other at a certain point even by me. EVERY TIME I turned on my receiver my volume was turned up all the way. I think I blew a few componenets in my speakers and I have been without up till now with this purchase. Better find another way besides taking the doors off! Good luck! and don't worry. You have plenty of time to change your order. again and again and again and again.....................

LOL. Right you are Bob. I think the more you the harder the decision is when everything isn't cut and dry.. Maybe if we didn't order from the factory outlet we wouldn't have had the time to agonize over the decision.

Wid,

Speakers are 8 Ohms and rated for 200 watts. I looked online and cant find any info on sensitivity or frequency response. Im sure the Axioms are more efficient.

The only reference i found online was this youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEN9E44MiBM

Mine don't sound that bad thankfully, but I am looking forward to the upgrade.


Zimm,

Did you just cut a hole in the back and mount the fan blowing out? I have computer fans sitting around and saw a site that sells ac to 4 pin adapters for about 10 bucks.

I currently have my AVR sitting next to my cable box, but may move them so they are each sitting on their own shelf. This should help a little.

This is directed to anyone who is looking at Axiom speakers.

When I first looked at Axioms I started with the M60s until I was assured by many people here on the forums, and personal contact with both Alan and Brent that my Denon would, in fact, be fine with M80s. The reason it may be hard to decide is because there aren't really any 'dogs' here. Whichever setup one chooses, is the "right" setup if you know what I mean. It's always helpfull to PM/email/call Alan, Brent or JC and ask them a few questions before making your decision, they're there to help make the right choice, not to try and sell you more $$. When I enquired to Alan about the M80s combined with a Denon AVR, he assured me it would be fine and suggested that the M22/sub combo would make a very viable alternative as well. I've had a lot of help from the forum as well and appreciate the input of many of the members here. I never expect everyone to be unanimous in their recommendations, but I see an overall consensus about what works/doesn't work/tried it but...ect. Anyway, I did actually change my order slightly a couple of days ago...simply changed from Boston Cherry to Black, because I had purchased a Black P'Digm sub recently. Black speakers sound 'darker' don't they?

If your having problems deciding between the M60s and M80s, let your budget decide. Do you want to upgrade anything with the difference in $$? if not, for me, I would opt for the M80s. They are both going to please you regardless and if anyone needs help deciding, like I did, you can ask for advice from Axiom or from the forums, just remember that you'll get some different opinions.

Black speakers do play darker, you should try AC/DC back in Black, Black Ice, even Metallica Black Album have much darker imagery than when played back on speakers of different colors.

That should help with the brightness issue. Wait a minute. Hold on a second. Hello, Noreen, Is that you? Has my order gone out yet? Oh It just got loaded on the truck? Can you do me a favor and change my order to black? Why? Oh, because the guys on the forum think that will put my worries to rest about Axioms possibly being bright because dark speakers play darker. And besides my buddy Adrian siad I should do it!

The light maple ones are the "brightest"

Since you're having fun with decisions, you could also look at the Vinyl upgrades which are 13% more.. so not as much as the real wood but pretty nice I think. These are the High Gloss Cherry Vinyl.

I submit the HG ones are the brightest, much more reflective than my light maple.

Hey Jay,

I didn't think anyone had a situation similar to mine. How far is the back corner of the speaker closet to the wall from the wall? Looks like that corner is almost touching.

My setup is in a corner except that the right corner is the backside of a staircase going up. Under the stairs is open with a curtain hung where a wall would be if it was closed in. Then the wall of the staircase cts back between the right side of the mantle and the switches so that wall is parallel with your left wall. The back left corner of my right speaker will will be close to the stair wall just like the back corner of your right speaker. That staircase is part of the foyer so my right speaker will pretty much be sitting against that wall in the foyer with about 10' behind it to the front wall of the house.

I know I should just get a pic. Where can a draw up a plan from the internet?

Jay, that's a nice fireplace. Is it black granite, marble? Also, if anyone finds their speakers too bright just wear some sunglasses.

Or you can pair them with some Blose and dumb them down a bit

Sorry Bob, must have missed that post, The LF speaker I think you are refering to, is 2.5 - 3 inches away from the plumbing wall that sticks out from the side wall, the rear of the speakers are also about 2-3 inches from the fireplace hearth and side walls leaving them about 6 inches away at the ports.

Actually I was talking about the back left corner of the left speaker and the back right corner of the right speaker. Those corners look like they are almost touching the wall. I expect my left speaker to be almost touching the wall just like how that looks. My right speaker will be the same like the left speaker with the back left corner almost touch my stair wall running parallel to the wall of the left side. That would give the back of my right speaker more breathing room behind than the left.

Of course a picture speaks volumes (pun intended)

Speaking of speaker placement, the back of one of my M80s will be open to another room(left side), where my other M80 will have a wall behind it(right side). Would this cause more bass to come from the side(in this case the right side) with the wall behind the speaker? anyone.

The same 2-3 inches away applies for the back corners as well.

The left side will have no wall behind it though, does that mean I will lose some bass on that side(reflected)?

You will lose a little room gain with out the close proximity, but the sub will make up for it.

I thought you didn't want "close proximity" to eliminate boominess. My concern is being too close to a wall on the left.
Adrian is concerned about having no wall behind the left. I guess neither of us have a beautiful HT room that so many picture here.

I think there are more of us without a dedicated HT than there are with one.

Yes close proximity can create boominess, I find when I run a 40hz crossover I get boomy bass, actually more of a peak in that range according to REW graphing, anything above that seems to work ok.

I have run the M80s upstairs where I have more room for them to 'breathe' and they have a wider soundstage and the bass is less prominent, still smooth and noticeable, perhaps I just get used to the room re-inforced bass I have in the 'bassment'.

Bob,

I spoke to Brent from Axiom on the phone and asked him about the required distance from the wall. He said that I should be alright with 4 - 6 inches of space.

This is the best ... Great fun and learning something new every day..

Bob, in my "experience" (don't laugh! ) boominess is too broad a concept to so quickly equate with corner loading. I think boominess is a potential outcome of corner loading, but it is all about the complex reflections of a room. The corner will emphasize lower notes, but in a given room that may flatten the bass curve at the listening position, not spike a range and cause booming. I’m not disagreeing with you, just saying the issue of placement is not subject to such a clear rule - I wish it was, so I could stop moving my speakers around.

Yep. I bought a 110v computer fan and plugged it into the switched power outlet on my AVR. Worked fantastic, kept it nice and cool. BUT...it was loud. For critical listening I would unplug the fan. If I was doing it again, I would pay extra to get an ultraquiet fan or multiple small fans. And with the amp behind doors with no fan, I promise you will wake up one morning and find you forgot to turn it off last night. I almost burned my house down as the Denon had heated the wood above it to the point I was sure a flame was next. I got the fan that day!