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Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
Micah #249594 03/01/09 03:02 AM
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I'd love to have the A1400-8, but that price is borderline McIntosh range. To be honest, I think I would rather spend the $4000 on a 2 channel McIntosh, and let the Denon handle the rest.


LFR1100 Actives,QS10HPx2,QS8x2,EP800,M3x4,M3x2 (Wood),M5HPx2 (Wood),AxiomAir,ADA1500-8,ADA1500-7
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
SRoode #249616 03/01/09 08:39 AM
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Whoa... those are some beautiful looking amps!


I've been wondering what the advantage of a 'digital' amp is anyway? I mean they have to convert it over to analog at some point anyhow, so what is the point of amplifying it digitally, only to convert it to analog in the end? Why not just amplify it purely in analog and save yourself the extra step?


My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
Micah #249619 03/01/09 09:24 AM
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"Digital" is a misnomer when it comes to Class D amps. The don't work with digital data. They take a continuous analog wave form as input and compand that with a high frequency triangle wave which produces a square wave of varying duty cycle. That square wave is used to open and close the output stage valve, finally that output is sent to a low-pass filter to remove the remaining high frequency artifacts.

Class D amps are very efficient because they are either all the way on or all the way off (which combined with the classification of 'D' is why many people call them digital).

I've always liked this note from Audioholics when they were reviewing a Class D amp:
 Quote:
What's important to note is it can be MORE expensive to properly design a Class D amplifier than a conventional linear one. You still need a good, high current power supply in both designs, but the Class D requires costly power inductors for the reconstruction filters and fast switchers being clocked at high frequency to handle the high current demand and also keep the harmonic content pristine within the audio band.


For more information (and there is a LOT of it out there) just Google "Class D amp"


Pioneer PDP-5020FD, Marantz SR6011
Axiom M5HP, VP160HP, QS8
Sony PS4, surround backs
-Chris
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
ClubNeon #249621 03/01/09 09:33 AM
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Well thank you for that clarification. I can dig it now!


My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
Micah #249693 03/01/09 11:05 PM
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I am sorry, your right, with regards to amps in that catagory it can be considered expensive. With the economy we are entering now, it is expensive indeed. But with that said..its a great amp. Alot of people are going to technobable you, but if you are looking for pure unadulterated (if that is a word) power for the insane moments you were talking about...this is the amp for you.


M80-QS8-VP150-EP600-A1400-8
STR-DA5300ES BDPS5000ES.

Mark
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
willscary #249698 03/01/09 11:16 PM
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 Originally Posted By: willscary
A decade ago, someone posted Stereo Review power output findings on the web. What it showed was that manufacturer's ratings mean nothing. I seem to recall where a Denon receiver rated at 90X5 or 100X5 only actually met its rating with one channel driven. If all channels were driven, it struggled to produce more than 20 or so wpc.

All receivers and amps are not created equal. Discrete channels reduce crosstalk. This is plainly audible. Better and bigger power supplies mean the difference between producing 20% more than the rated power with all channels driven and producing 20% of the rated power when all channels are driven.

Bill


This seems right to me based on the educated but differing points of view always put forth on this topic both in this forum and in print and my own experience. Fact is, my Denon AVR 3300's 105 w/c will not sound as good as Wid's Rotel at 120 w/c when pumping 5 chans in spite of the fact the 15 w/c difference is mathematically insignificant.

The fact is, the Rotel amp will deliver its full rated power, or more, to all channels under all circumstances. My Denon will give me probably one Chanel of 100 watts. With 2 channels running hard it starts to clip at 78.6 watts (.016% THD). At 5 channels pumping hard - as is very common now with DD and Surround Music - my AVR will not give me 100. I hope it is more than the 20 mentioned above, but clearly not 100 or even 78. I think that is the difference between the lower-end AVR claiming 100 (e.g., Denon 700 series or Onkyo 700 series) and the better AVRs (e.g., Denon 3808 and Integra 8.9) and the moderate separate amps (e.g., Rotel and Bryston 9B). One example I found interesting, if not completely understood, was on the Integra website where between two models with only 10 w/c difference between them, there was a 100% increase in current capacity from 35A to 72A. I'm not positive how the current/volts/watts equation works, but looks like the 72A current supply could deliver more of the 140 promised watts than the 35A model when I beg for it.

I think much of the debate stems from lower listening levels. Much is the same there and audible differences are minute and difficult to describe if heard. But at the edges of the performance envelope - either in terms of dBs or dynamic peaks - the more expensive amps distance themselves in very noticeable ways. Some people don't listen at those levels so the amp sections all sound the same to them and bear out the simple math.

I like to listen to music at very real levels (when I can). Whether that is an acoustic guitar on Dave Mathews, or Ray Brown's stand-up bass plucking away, the accuracy of the illusion is created when the instruments and voices sounds as if in the room. At those levels (upper 90 - low 100 db, to me, in my room) all watts are not the same. At the edges of the amps envelope math does not tell the whole story - microfarad supply capacitors and other power widgets and do-dads that you can't find on the spec sheet seem to make a significant difference. i guess that is where some of the money for Krell and Bryston and McIntosh, etc., goes and why I may appreciate those amps when others here rightfully would not ever notice a difference.




Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
Zimm #249719 03/02/09 01:24 AM
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I can't find it...but there were several big brqnds that did poorly and yes, there is a direct correlation between amperage and wpc. The Denons, Sonys, Technics, Onkyos and others that did poorly were your run of the mill 90X5 or 100X5 recievers from 8 or 9 years ago. NAD and Harmon Kardon were two that beat their ratings.

Remember, this was Stereo Revew (or actually, Sound and Vision), so Rotel, Parasound, McIntosh, and other better amplified receivers were not included.

Bill


"Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness"...Go Packers! and Go Badgers!
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
willscary #249748 03/02/09 03:40 AM
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I recall the site that posted that info. It would now be rather badly dated(the latest was about 2003)and was misleading even several years ago. In one column it showed the advertised power rating, which in most cases was the more realistic 2-channels driven at full power for at least five continuous minutes rating complying with the FTC power regulations. Then in another column it showed a 5 or 6 channel driven result, which was of course significantly lower than the rating with 2 channels driven. The implication was that the receiver had "failed" to meet its advertised power rating, which would be a violation of the federal regulations, and which wasn't true of course.

More sophisticated analysis of power requirements recognizes that driving all channels simultaneously at full power isn't a realistic home audio scenario, regardless of the number of channels in the source material. Audioholics, for example, has been quite clear on this and tests with one and two channels driven.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
JohnK #249757 03/02/09 04:24 AM
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I don't know...If I buy a receiver that is rated at 90X6, like my 7 year old Denon, I expect 90X6, not 90X1. My reciever is one that does not put out its rated power. I believe it actually produces just under 40X6 with all channels driven. That is over 3db of headroom lost! This is unacceptable.

On the other hand, my Parasound amp is rated at 85X5 and you know what? It puts out 98X5 into 8 ohms and much more into 4 ohms, all channels driven. My other Parasound amp does even better. It puts out nearly 20% more than its rated output with both of its two channels driven.

Last edited by willscary; 03/02/09 04:26 AM.

"Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness"...Go Packers! and Go Badgers!
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
willscary #249759 03/02/09 04:33 AM
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Will. Did the Denon litterature actually state 90w x 6 channels? I know marketing types use weazel words all the time, but if you read carefully, they usually have a different implied and actual meaning.

Whenever I have looked at specs on receivers, they have been very clear on how much is delivered with a specified number of channels.

OK, I went to the Denon site and took a look at one of their products and I see what you are getting at. The marketing specs state XXXw x 7, but if you look at the specs in the back of the manual it gives 150wx2 into 8 Ohms (the FCC 'spec').

I also see that Parasound lists their amps as XXXw x Y channels, all channels driven.

I guess, having done sales & marketing for 15 years, I just automatically put on my waezel word filter every time a look at anything in the way of a brochure/specs. If I don't see all channels driven specifically, I assume its not.

Last edited by fredk; 03/02/09 05:13 AM.

Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
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