Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Large great room. 7.1 speaker placement & dipole v

Hey guys,
First, let me apologize in advance for the short novel to follow... (but at least it has pictures.) Dean (grunt11) suggested I post this over here in the Axiom HT forums, so I copied my first post and Dean's excellent reply (from AVS).

Any other thoughts would be appreciated. Sorry for pictures you may have seen on the Axiom speaker threads.
It was also recommended by my buddies in the other Axiom threads to try over here for some ideas and experience on 'best for the situation' speaker types and placement. I would also appreciate pointers on the best locations for my three subs. I just ran into a steal of a deal on the Paradigm Servo 15-a. I had no idea how subs were 'supposed' to sound. I have the two 10" KLH's so I keep them hooked up too.

I recently bought the Denon 1909 and am finding I may have been better with a 2809 for this 31'L x 23' W room. I have not nailed down my specific speaker choice for the 7.1 backs, because of differing opinions and ideas on various locations also affects the Direct Radiating (DR) vs. Reflective Radiating (RR)types.

I will be buying Axiom speakers, that is a given. I am trying to decide 'which' type of Axioms to order. I can order extra for testing. I just would have to pay the return freight ($30/ pair of small speakers).
- Front L/R M60's, 8 ohm (maybe stretch the 1909 (90wpc) to the 4 ohm M80's ??)
- Center VP150, 6 ohm
- Sides QS8 quad pole, 6 ohm (two tweeters firing at angles L & R, two 5 1/4" woofers firing up and down)
- 7.1 backs.... (DR) M2's or (RR) QS8's ????
(Zooming in a bit clarifies the diagram)



- If I put the 7.1 backs 16' behind listening position on back wall, I'd most likely go with M2 (DR) bookshelf's.
- The (RR) QS8's have kind of been less liked for the back wall because of:
1) concern the RR speakers might not be so effective 16' behind list. pos.
2) as you can see in the back wall photo, an up/down firing speaker would need to stick out from the kitchen cabinets, which would stick out like a sore thumb.
- This SBL location over kitchen cabinets and left (as viewing pic) of the white boxed in vent pipe has some issues being boosted 1.5dB over the SBR which already sounds boomy being directly in the corner. The SBR in the corner is temporary, until I KNOW where I want to make holes in the wall.


- The idea of mounting a 6.1 QS8 5' directly behind the primary listening position with tweeters at ear height was mentioned. This one possible mid room 6.1 mounting location would be at the end of the bar/counter. *** Is this a good or bad location for a quad pole RR 6.1 speaker??? (a cardboard mock up is shown)




More pictures to give you an idea of how the rest of the room is laid out for sound field considerations. The small bookshelf speakers in the pics are a bunch of speakers I had from my old house's music in several rooms. The last picture shows the Klipsch Cornwalls I've had for 26 years (since new). My wife has patiently waited five years for me to warm up to the idea of their leaving the family!







Good bye old friends....



A very big thanks to you guys over on this end of the forums. Glad to have a reason to visit.

Dave

***************************************
reply from
grunt11 on my AVS thread...

First, awesome room Dave!

Your right that the 2809 may have been a better choice mainly because it has pre-outs for all the channels which would allow you to use a separate amp. That is a big room and if you wanted it louder than a receiver could handle a separate amp would be the way to go.

FRONTS: Denons are very good at driving the 4 ohm M80s so if it’s the M80s you really want then get them. I have a Denon 2807 driving 3xM80s and 4xQS8s to over 100 dB w/o any problems. As a rule you should select your speakers first and then get the electronics to match them. Even if you’re stuck with the 1909 it will need upgrading just due to technology changes long before you will wear out the speakers.

You might experiment with moving your L/R mains farther apart so they provide a wider soundstage for your fairly wide seating. This will also help them blend better with the surrounds. It may also help them sound better getting them away from the screen which they will reflect off some. One caveat to moving them to far apart is that the sound can become disconnected from the picture. So when something happens on the edge of the screen it may sound like it’s coming from several feet outside the screen. Some people don’t like this but others prefer a wider soundstage. Looks like you have room to experiment so I would.

CENTER: I always recommend vertical center speakers if someone can fit them over or under the screen. That’s a wide room and a vertical center will give you better off axis performance. The M22 is a near perfect match to the M80s, not sure which Axiom bookshelf best matches the M60s but I also imagine it’s the M22. Besides being a better speaker IMO, the M22 is also less expensive than the VP150.

Surround Sides: QS8 for sure. The location looks great. I would mount them anywhere from a few feet up above ear level to near the ceiling just make sure to leave at least 4 inches, preferably a little more for he top driver to breath.

Surround Backs: Either the M2s or QS8s will work as they all have the same drivers, which to choose depends IMO on where you put them. Because of the width of your room 7.1 might work better than 6.1.

If you go all the way to the back wall I would prefer the M2s. Their directional design will better aim the sound toward your listening position were as the QS8s might become to diffuse that far back. I you wanted to use QS8s in the back I think it would be better to ceiling mount them closer to the listening position (Axiom makes some nice adjustable mounting brackets). The suggestion to mount a single 6.1 QS8 at the end of the counter looks good however I would prefer it up at the same height as the surround sides. It probably wouldn’t be an issue but it might cause some pans to change in height. If you can get a couple ladders I would experiment with the various locations to find what you like best and then nail it down. I did this and found that in the smaller room I was just in 5.1 with the QS8s in the corners actually worked better than 7.1 because of how close they were to the wall for reflections.

I have tried both QS8 and M22 back speakers and found that when sitting close about 10 feet or less I prefer the QS8s, however as they move farther back I prefer the M22s. Whether to use direct radiating or multi-polar rear speakers is a huge debate for some people. For the most part it comes down to personal preference with speaker distance the deciding factor for me. This would be a good place for your idea to buy both to try out and return the ones you prefer least. Careful though! I thought I was going to do that and ended up liking the M22s so much I kept them as zone 2 speakers.

To recap I would try this:

Fronts: 2xM80s
Center: 1xM22
Sides: 2xQS8s
Rears: order 2xQS8 and 2xM2s and keep what works best.

Hope this helps. If you want the best advice on Axiom speakers you should post this over in the Axiom forum and you may get more responses from those who actually own the speakers.

Sorry my novel had no pictures.

Cheers,
Dean
__________________
"Tact is just not saying true stuff" Cordeia Chase.

Dean,
Excellent to hear from both a person with speaker placement experience AND specifically with Axiom speakers! I have spent a lot of time over at the Axiom forums and gotten great info. I wanted to come over here to see if I got any more ideas. Bingo! Success. It sounds like you have covered all the bases well. As y'all know us fence sitters (stuck in indecision), often need some coaxing. So others ideas would be appreciated too.

1) 2809/ more power...
I was surprised my wife this morning agreed that it's best to get what works best since we already have a good HT foundation with the Mitsub. WD-73734. She is a saint! I'd still like to find a way to get the upgrade cost closer to $300 than $500. I may be dreaming...

2) Fronts...
I have heard the M60's and was surprised to be a bit underwhelmed. ( I really need to hear the M80's to be sure that I do not feel they are to bright (for me), like some people feel for them. Listening to an ocean sounds CD this morning, my commented on how the subtle seagulls sounds in the background were nice. I did not here them. I the summer when the crickets are singing, I can barely hear them if I strain to. So my high frequency hearing loss may tame any perceived brightness of the M80's.

Once I hear the M80's and find I like them, I would have no problem ordering those. Even if I need to keep my 1909 until 2809's become more affordable. I will experiment with moving the fronts further apart. Bummer that I heard the rumor of the 1910, likely does not mean a 2810 would come out this year (making bargain prices on 2809's like there were on 2808's). An opinion I heard was that this was the year a an upgrade to the 3808 and not the 2809. (
If you know anyone in the SF bay area with M80's willing to audition, I'd love to be connected with them.

3) CENTER...
Shoot, I was thinking you said M2 as center center. That would fit under if I removed the glass shelf. Only 15 1/2" ht under w/o shelf. ( I took a pic. with a (M2 size) speaker balancing on top. My wife said that is my first 'no'. Then realized you meant the M22 at 19.8" tall. A definite no go for on top...



I do not I am willing to have that 20"h x 7"w M22 on top of the 73" screen. I know the WAF is -10! (TV ht. is 62")
How would you describe the difference between the VP150 and the M22 at a center, since it seems I am limited to that route?

4) Surround Sides...
The QS8's would mount right over the the lower part of where the current in-walls are. That would make the top woofer 9-10" from the ceiling, 2 1/2' above and directly L & R of the primary list. pos.

5) Surround Backs...
I agree with your thoughts here. My ranking guess as far as best sound quality (not considering WAF): (what do you think?)
a) QS8's ceiling mounted 4' - 8' back from primary listening position. Is there a rec. dist. given my room layout? Actually this is a choice my wife likes. She is willing to put up with the mid ceiling speakers because, when in the kitchen or dining room, she will not be getting blasted by the backs as she currently is!
b) M2's on back wall. This looks better, but still is boomy sounding PLUS, blasting people in kitch./din. rm.
c) QS8 as 6.1 at end of counter. ... the down sides you mentioned. In theory this one spkr could be mounted 3' from center peak to match sides, but this would not be a good visual choice. If a single spkr was mounted ctr peak on ceiling, it would be about 3' higher than the sides.

My wife (somewhat surprisingly) feels like I do, that if we are going to the expense, get the best sound field possible as best we can. So how much better would the two QS8 7.1 backs (same ht as sides) sound than one QS8 6.1 (either ceiling of end of counter mounted)? Did I mention I'm nominating my wife to the Pope for sainthood!

Hey I like novels! Rather than back and forthing with 25 posts, putting all the relevant info in a novel of a first post, lets everyone see the complete picture. Dean, I really appreciate the time you have taken to cover all my areas of concern. Of course I did have to 'novel' right back at ya' again.

Dave
PS. Any if there are any thoughts on better placement of the two front subs, that is good too. :o)

A few ideas: (1) the 6.1 idea seems pretty good if you can't get a better plan. (2) Consider putting the RS on ceiling mounts to avoid all the issues you are having. With high ceilings and matching color, you would not notice them much. You could also do a false wood beam across the ceiling at that line to give the little Q's a home while giving a visual separation between the kitchen and the HT. you could also consider good in-ceiling speakers at that point. They are not preferred, and they are not Axiom, but given your Axiom system I don't mind offering that they can work very well, especially when you have 5.1 covered. (3) you should center the new L/R speakers so that each is equidistant from the boundaries (i.e., walls and shelf) as the other. That will keep the image clear and centered as the time of the reflections will be equal and bass reinforcement will likewise be equal.

Edit: never mind, looks like you got that already. Slow on the keyboard today.

First off don’t go buying any set of speakers unless you can demo them first, or can return them easily if you don’t like their sound. That said with the Axioms you have a couple avenues available. First check out this thread:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=184230&gonew=1#UNREAD

Send a Private Message (PM) to someone listed nearby and see if you can arrange a demo. Kcarlile is a very active member of the Axiom forum who I believe has the M80s and would be an excellent choice as he‘s far more knowledgeable than me. Alternatively if for some reason you can arrange a demo you could always order a pair of M80s (listening in your own room is always the best option) and return them for about $60.00 shipping if you don’t like them.



Don’t sweat replacing the receiver right now, speakers are most important. When you do end up upgrading your receiver, base your choice mostly on it having the features you want like the most up-to-date decoding if that’s important to you. Also with a room that big if you like things really loud you may eventually want to get a separate amp(s) so I would make sure to upgrade to a receiver that has pre-outs for all the channels.

One option is to buy a B-Stock or refurbished receiver from an authorized dealer:

http://usa.denon.com/OnlineETailers.asp

I bought my Denon 2807 from Dakmart at the suggestion of an Axiom forum member and got a substantial %45 discount off the MSRP. One drawback is it only came with a 90 day warranty, however it’s been running my M80s and QS8s for 2 years now with no problems ever. Just throwing this out as a possibility but not the choice for everyone.
If I were buying a Denon right now I would go with the 3808.





I mentioned the M22 center because I have experience with it. I have my doubts that a M2 would work better then a VP150 but someone on the Axiom forum may know otherwise. If your budget could handle shipping one back you could order both and keep the one you like the best.


Perfect!



Cool! I thought for sure your wife would shoot down the speakers-hanging-from-the-ceiling idea. I would go with either “a” or “c.” Your best bet would be to order 2 QS8s and using ladders or something try getting as close to the different suggestions you made, and see which sounds best. Soup can work great to lift the bottom driver off whatever you’re sitting the speakers on.

My instincts tell me that “a” will work the best because your room is pretty wide. If you can play with the distance a little and see what blends best with the side surrounds. Generally mounting speakers symmetrically around the center of your listening position gives the best overall results but as they say “measure twice, cut once.”

There is no reason the option “c” down low on the counter wont work if it’s far enough back for the sound field to disperse and blend with the side surrounds before reaching your listening position. The only way to know is to try it, and it sure would be a simpler more elegant solution than ceiling mounting.


Often the best placement for 2 subwoofers is in the center of the two side walls to help even out bass response across your listening area. However, in a room that big you might benefit more by putting them near corners (corner loading) to boost some of the bass. Unless someone can offer more better advice here again your best bet will likely be to test them in different locations.

I’m also posting this in the Axiom forum so my fellow Axiomites, some of whom don’t come over here, can critique what I’m telling you.

Cheers,
Dean

I dunno, Dave, after seeing your room, I'm not sure I want you to see my (extremely) humble abode...

I'd not worry about the amplification for now; you can always add an amp later if need be. My M80s run off of a H/K 75 WPC receiver.

Yeah, I am sort of hoping he doesn’t spot the pictures of the HT room in the house I’m trying to buy. The whole house could almost fit in that room.

Dave. On the M22 as center question, they certainly work as both Alan and I use them for this. From a frequency response perspective they have a slightly better bottom end than the VP150, however, from a power handling/volume perspective it is a different story.

The VP150 has a sensitivity of 91db and power handling of 400w vs 87db and 150w for the M2. The vp150 will play noticably louder. The M2 might be just fine in your room in a dual configuration. I would ask Alan. I suspect he will know.

Hey Zimm,
1 & 2) I was thinking a QS8 6.1 at the peak of the ceiling 5-6' back may be a pretty good compromise. But if two ceiling mounted QS8's centered, and 13'-15'apart (ctr to ctr), would give a much noticeably better rear sound stage, I'd like to go with that. I will test it when I get my Axioms, but if I can learn from ya'lls experience and knowledge of how things have/haven't worked in cases maybe similar to mine, it will give a good head start on what to try out.

3) Interestingly, we recently moved the TV about 2' to the left to center it with the peak of the ceiling to look better aesthetically. This made the 2.5' left of center between bookcase and the right wall. If I now had each L&R front equadistant from bookcase and rt. wall, they would not be equadistant from the TV. I'd guess the center of the sound field should also be the center of the TV screen, correct?

As it is now, the left front is closer to the left (bookcase) than Rt. front is to the rt. wall. This is compounded because the SBL will be 18" - 30" from the kitch. cabs., while the SBR (if equidistant from room and sound stage center), would be 46" to 58" from the left side wall. With the TV centered in the room, the sides are equidistant. If either the dual or single QS8's are used for the back, they could be room centered too.

If the TV moved 2.5' to the rt., fronts could be as you describe, sides would no longer equidistant ( they were not before), the backs might look unbalanced (room center wise) but could shift off center to the right with the TV.

Aesthetically we much prefer the TV where it is, centered. I do not know how much of a problem the SBL QS8's tweeter bouncing off a surface (cabinet) that is 40" closer than the SBR is from the right wall? As well as how much the fronts not being equidistant between bookshelf and rt. wall? (note: front of LF spkr is only 1' back of the end of the book case.)

Was that any shorter??

Thanks,

Again, just talking about ideas, I get WAF, etc. But the rears not being equidistant is not as critical. the front image is more important - as I understand it. My Q's are not equidistant in the rear, but heading this advice regarding the fronts was very helpful in improving the imaging of my system for music. For HT not a big change except for bass evening out. With bigger speakers you might find the equal spread across the front to actually look better too.

Just ideas.

AA) I have sent a PM to every single person on that page within a 2 hour drive. I got a response from Adam (AdamP88). He graciously had me over last Thursday to hear his M60's. Thank you SO much Adam!!! Ken had sad something might be doable but not right away. When Adam told me they were expecting any day... OH! I understand now, Ken. no worries. There is a guy, Koiman with M80's, 20 mins away in Antioch, but he not responded to PM's or emails. :o( If anyone knows Koiman, tell him I am not an axe murderer. ;o)

1) very good point to put off thinking of a new amp at this point. Ken running M80's with HK 75wpc is encouraging. Even though HK is know for understating their power, maybe the 1909 is similar enough.

3) I'd be surprised to hear an M2 really was better Center than the VP150, but I'd love to hear peoples experience.

5) I'm thinking (a) dual QS8's would be much better than one, but people's experience here is way better than my 'thinking'! ;o)