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Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
fredk #249823 03/02/09 05:21 PM
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The spec sheet for the 3808 shows Fronts L + R, Center, then side surrounds L + R and back surrounds L+R and they do state "Identical Quality and power for all 7 channels". I know this is not the same as a true all channels driven spec, I think H/K is one of the few that reports in their specs an all Channels driven rating, at least on the avr146/154 I just looked at.

I did look at Sony's spec sheet for the STRDG820 and no where do they state identical power, they just say it has 710W available and the specs only show 2 channels driven and a spec for 10% THD into 5 channels \:\( .

It does take some reading between the lines.


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
fredk #249824 03/02/09 05:21 PM
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Integra is giving a bit more information that others I have looked at. The comparison of the power from various test methods is interesting. Now, someone tell me what parts would make the watt rating in each category stay the same - power supplies, capacitors, do-hickeys, whatchamacallits?
Integra 9.9


Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
Zimm #249828 03/02/09 05:35 PM
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The Total power is limited by the power supply and the rest is decided on by the design of the system. As I mentioned the Sony has 710W available but at 10% THD to all 5 channels, this would sound terrible so a realistic listing might be 10-35W/Ch(just a guess) and at this level only a small room with lower volumes would work well with this receiver.
This is where that minimum spec listing comes into play. Manufacturers are ALLOWED to list there specs as one channel driven and the rest at 1/8 power. It takes a much smaller P/S and amp to do this. It is from this spec that many low end avrs are able to get such high Watt/ch rattings, because they in fact can achieve the specified rating on any of the channels just not all at the same time.


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
Zimm #249830 03/02/09 05:36 PM
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Here is an example of what I am talking about from Zimms link:

 Quote:
7 ch x 280 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven

I read this as the receiver having a maximum of 280w available to the amp stages no matter which way you slice it. so, thats 140w x 2 channels driven or 40w x 7 channels driven. Yet, there is that 7 ch x 280 w again, implying to the unwary, which is most of the buying public, that the receiver is capable of a lot more.

Jay, given your link to the 3808 testing, its value went up quite a bit in my eyes based on it being able to deliver a lot of power to any given channel if required.

Hi Johnk. Yes, I know, all channels are never going to be driven equally, but it is nice to know that with the 3808 you will have a full 150w available at all times. On the flip side, you may end up with considerably less power to your fronts with the integra because of the power supply.

That would not make much difference to me in my current setup, but for people with larger rooms, it is something to be aware of.


Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
fredk #249832 03/02/09 05:44 PM
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Actually, as I have said before, if you are listening in a 5-6-7 channel stereo mode you WILL need nearly all available power to all channels driven when listening at high volumes. This is about the only time I think anyone would ever need near full power to all channels, so this feature alone makes the all channels driven spec that much more important.

I found the integra specs a little confusing as on the side it states all channels, then in the specs it speaks of 2 channels driven at 8,6,4 ohm impedances, weird.


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
fredk #249833 03/02/09 05:45 PM
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Ok, well while the battle rages on as to whether or not today's AVR's reach their claimed 120, 135 or 150 watts x 7 or not, let me quietly point out that the M80's (even the QS8's for that matter) are rated to handle 400 watts. And thus, as I've stated many times, for those of you who enjoy the way a reciever powers your system and want not to explore the upper regions of their capabilities, then more power to you (or should I say less? Oh never mind).

However, there are those who like a bit 'more', and that's where separates can take you, to the land of 'more'. And unlike the, "can you hear differences in amplifiers" debate, there is no arguement as far as power goes. More power = higher volume. We can go round and round about how loud a Denon will play M80's (I have a Denon, and yes it plays loud), but a good separate amp will play them louder, end of story. Not twice as loud mind you, no one here is claiming that. The differences in volume levels are not enough to convince most AVR users to make the switch, that's fine. But there are differences, and human nature has always driven some to explore the absolute furthest boundaries out there (that's how man made it to the moon. Was going to the moon practical in any way? Nah, we just wanted to see if we could actually do it).

People who invest in separate's are people who want the ability to squeeze the absolute most out of their system even if they rarely ever need/use it. To them it's not about whether or not a Denon can push an M80 to acceptable levels of performance. To them driving a 400 watt M80 with a 200 watt amp is like driving an 800 hp Ferrari Enzo around with a gas peddle that only goes half way to the floor. "400 hp is more power then anyone in their right ming would ever NEED". Yeah, but some still want access to the full 800 reguardless.

Logic, or a sense of rationality has nothing to do with it.


My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
Micah #249834 03/02/09 05:54 PM
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you can't compare watts with HP, and fyi, we never went to the moon. \:\)


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
Micah #249836 03/02/09 06:03 PM
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No one is denying the benefits of a high power amp over a 100W/ch avr for high volumes, the question is will a low end separate system that costs the same as the all in one solution of a known producer like the 3808 sound any better/louder? The answer, I believe, is no.


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
SirQuack #249837 03/02/09 06:07 PM
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Agreed; you had me going until the Moon thing. Take off the tinfoil hat and return to earth Melvin.


Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
Zimm #249840 03/02/09 06:24 PM
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I'm out of popcorn. Does anyone else need anything while I'm up? \:\)

I'm impressed that we've managed to keep this civilized for this long. Kudos guys!

And of course we've been to the Moon. Just ask Bing Gordyn.
;\)




M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office
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