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#250081 - 03/03/09 08:11 PM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: bridgman]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
I worked in the tooling industry for approx 20 yrs(until 2 yrs ago) building/machining assembly lines for the "Big Three" as well as most of the other manufacturers with plants in N. America. To put things in some kind of perspective, us guys who did 5000 hr Tool & Die/Machining apprentices and invested thousands ($30,000+ for me) in tools and had to work to tolerances of as little as .0001 (about 1/30 the hair on your back!! lol) were making less than the guy who pressed the "start" button on the assembly line. I'm not trying to press anyones "start" button here, nor am I trying to 'toot' my own horn....but there's a lack of perspective here. I'm going to stop here, because I'll probably step on some toes....but the idea of people who have been making good $$ (both management and union wkrs) asking the guy in the factory across the road, working for $14-15 hr making widgets to bail them out is wrong on so many levels.
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Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#250083 - 03/03/09 08:25 PM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: bridgman]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
I think this quote sums up my thoughts on the bailouts

“There is nothing so disastrous as a rational investment policy in an irrational world” (John Maynard Keynes)

I agree with the bailout and see it as a wise economic policy, however this economic "bailout" has been rushed and I am not confident that the people responsible for spending this money will make the correct decisions especially for the long run. There needs to be accountability and I do not see that yet. I do not like seeing the people resposnible for these failed business practices given money to try to turn things around.






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I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#250125 - 03/04/09 01:51 AM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: BlueJays1]
danmagicman7 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 1467
No for the bailout on the auto industry.

The economy will eventually bounce back...stocks are a bargain right now!

People buy new cars when the money is flowing and the economy is doing well, they won't when the economy is crap...the beater car they have right now will be fine for a while. This could be said about many other entertainment industries...
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M22s|VP100|QS4s|HSU STF2

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#250134 - 03/04/09 04:07 AM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: Adrian]
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
 Originally Posted By: Adrian
(both management and union wkrs)
CAW/UAW aren't the enemy. They're the ones trying to insure there's still a middle class.

Everyone wants to make big money and spend small money, and they're quick to "roll over" on the next guy - he should make less, I should make more.

Bren R.

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#250139 - 03/04/09 07:24 AM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: BrenR]
Worfzara Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 709
Loc: London area, Ont, Canada
I tend to agree. Unions do more than increase wages for their members, although that is probably their main fuction. They also ensure proper working conditions and give the little guy a voice.

If you blame the union, you essentially blame the entire work force. And I just can't blame someone who is asking for more money, better benefits, imporved working conditions, etc.

However what I can't get around is CEO's that run a company into the ground due to bad decissions, and then walk away with more money than most of us make in multiple lifetimes.

paul
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paul

Axiom M80, VP180, Qs8, EP500
Panasonic PT-AU900
AudioTrak AT-6100
Denon AVR-990

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#250140 - 03/04/09 07:31 AM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: Worfzara]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6841
Loc: PEI, Canada
And another thing, how come I can't get no Tang 'round here?
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#250149 - 03/04/09 08:43 AM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: BrenR]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
 Originally Posted By: BrenR
CAW/UAW aren't the enemy. They're the ones trying to insure there's still a middle class.


Bren R.
You have to understand that over the last five years, in Ontario, many companies have gone under because companies like GM, were overpaying their own then asking their suppliers and assembly line builders to keep giving them better deals. I have seen this happen over and over again. You can't be paying millions to CEOs and union workers then expect your suppliers and builders to take less to make up for it....and now ask taxpayers to bail you out on top of that. No company should be asking for a penny until THEY do what THEY can to save their companies first...that means paycuts, no bonuses ect.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#250151 - 03/04/09 09:23 AM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: Adrian]
Worfzara Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 709
Loc: London area, Ont, Canada
Last year there were more cars and trucks made in Ontario than in Michigan. The main reason for this is healthcare costs. In the US the automotive companies pay approx. $1500 per vehicle towards healthcare. This is because the US doesn’t have a national healthcare plan. In Canada it’s $300 per vehicle because we do have a national healthcare plan. It is important to note the Canadian healthcare plan is subsidized by it’s taxpayers.

My view is that if it’s the government’s responsibility to help/serve/protect its people, then it must provide no cost healthcare similar to what we have here in Canada (diff. topic and lets not digress here). This is one of the things that have been killing Ford, GM and Chrysler in the US. Take the number of cars that have been made in the US, times it by $1200 ($1500 - $300). And you can see how much the US taxpayer has been saving, relative to the Canadian taxpayer. Isn’t it time for the US taxpayer to anti up and pay their share? It should never be a company’s responsibility to pay for healthcare, that is the role of government.

Remember, Toyota and Honda don’t get hit nearly has hard here, because they have only been building cars in North America for around 20 years. They don’t have any retirees yet. But that won’t last forever.
_________________________
paul

Axiom M80, VP180, Qs8, EP500
Panasonic PT-AU900
AudioTrak AT-6100
Denon AVR-990

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#250152 - 03/04/09 09:30 AM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: Adrian]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
The average UAW worker's pay is roughly $28/hour. If you factor in the healthcare and pension, the figure rises to more than $70/hour. But I'll be realistic and just stick with take-home pay. Assuming a 40 hour workweek, 52 weeks/year = $58,240 per year. That's according to GM itself, as of 2/12/08.

The average public grade-school teacher's salary is $51,009/year, according to http://www.aft.org/salary/. Teachers have pensions too, but I won't consider that because I didn't consider that with the UAW figures.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why people who stand around and punch rivets into metal, screw on a door, or bolt on a tire all day, everyday, should make more money than those who are charged with educating our society.
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#250153 - 03/04/09 09:46 AM Re: Should our governments help out the auto indus [Re: PeterChenoweth]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6398
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
 Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth
I'm sorry, but I don't understand why people who stand around and punch rivets into metal, screw on a door, or bolt on a tire all day, everyday, should make more money than those who are charged with educating our society.

Agreed. If I could have made the same money as a teacher, I would have gladly foregone medicine.

As a mild tangent, if you really want to get angry, consider how much we pay our entertainers and athletes. I heard on the radio the other day that the average NBA player's salary is $5 million a year. Just an average, bench-riding athlete. Any way the second-string forward on your local team is worth 100 teachers? That really chaps my a$$.
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"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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