Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Recommended stereo receiver for M60's.

Just got a new pair of M60's. What recommendations are there for a stereo receiver? I will not be running a sub. Budget is under $1000 US.
I also may just by a stereo amp and listen to CD's only for now; so any suggestions on an amp is appreciated as well.
I listened to a NAD stereo amp and cd player(not their high end stuff) with two PSB towers(T55?), no sub, and it sounded pretty good. Anyone using NAD? Thanks.

Harman Kardon 3490

Outlaw Audio RR2150

What Wid suggested. I have two of them and for the coin, you can't beat them.

Or, you could pick up a quality used receiver for $100-200. With so many people upgrading to new formats there are lots of good units to be had.

A Yamaha RX-V3300 works well for me. IMO,Yamaha AV receivers have simple controls, and lots of clean power.

Welcome to the M60's club!

Danny, welcome. If you're pretty certain that this isn't going to expand into a surround setup in the reasonably near future I'd agree with the HK3490 that Rick suggested. You might also, however, consider getting a multi-channel HT receiver which can do a good job in stereo at this time and has the ability to support future expansion.

John: What do you suggest for an HT amp with outstanding stereo performance for the M60's?.....Lee

If your budget is under 1K, then any of the Denon Stereo receivers fall into that group. Like John mentioned, any AV receiver will do a great job for music listening and open the door for future options.

Lee, "outstanding stereo performance" is no problem. Driving two speakers is easier than driving more and the same standard for audibly flawless amplification, i.e., flat frequency response from 20Hz-20KHz with inaudibly low noise and distortion applies regardless of how many speakers are involved. There's no mysterious factor which somehow requires a different standard in a stereo setup.

There're many fine HT receivers that qualify from Denon, Onkyo and others. A particularly good buy at this time is the factory refurb Onkyo 706 for $450 from Accessories4less .

Put me down for the Outlaw as well, $200 off it's regular price and I love the looks of it.

Hi Dannyg,

Besides the already recommended H/K 3480, the Sherwood Newcastle RX-770 stereo unit here is an excellent performer at a bargain price with a robust amplifier that will drive the 4-ohm Axiom M80s with ease.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/sherwood_rx770.html

If you have vinyl, it also has a built-in phono preamp (many others do not).

Any of the Denon AV receivers are excellent if you want to allow for future expansion to a surround system. The Outlaw stereo unit is gorgeous looking with some excellent features but it was fairly expensive.

NAD gear is nicely designed but tends to be overpriced and sometimes lacking in features.

Regards,

Alan

I have a Nad 352 integrated amp with my 22's and have used it with the 60's. I think it sounds great

“NAD gear is nicely designed but tends to be overpriced and sometimes lacking in features.”

Considering the cost of the Axiom A-1400- 8 / - 2 @ $4389.00 and $2987.00 respectively, isn’t the above statement analogous to the “pot calling the kettle black”.

If these zingers are going to reduce the cost of the Axiom amps, I'm all for them, but something tells me we're only going to get a reasoned rebuttal.

I hate it when people resort to sh stuff like that!

Unfortunately “reasoned” is not synonymous with the words” agreeable” or “reasonable”.

I have a Harmon Kardon 3490 powering my M22's and HSU STF-2 sub. I know you are currently not interested in a sub, but should you decide to add one, the 3490 has two subwoofer outputs, digital input (w/built in DAC)for CD player and an great remote. For the price ($269 thru Amazon) it's hard to beat. I am very pleased with this receiver paired with my M22's

I am curious why knowone has recommended any of last years or better still, any of this years Yamaha receivers??? For the dollar I do not see how you can get more? From everyones opinion of them thus far they all have adequate power supply and at some point if this 2 channel stereo wants to be come 5, 6 or even seven there is room to grow!!!

It has been proven that Denon amps sound better than Yamaha amps. Just a fact.


Ask FredK and JohnK, they love to explain the inherent sound characteristics of some amps that make them sound better than others.

[...runs to get flame retardant avitar...]

I have always respected Yamaha equipment and do so to this day.
I’m not really familiar with their AVR equipment in surround mode but have read some good reviews and some not so good reviews of their AVR’s, although this can be said of most, if not all equipment that is reviewed by multiple sources.
I do know that the Yamaha’s sound excellent in two channel mode, and they have plenty of balls behind their output stage.

They are certainly the most feature rich avrs out there this year. I was quite excited about them when I started researching. Unfortunately I have M80s and Yamis do not play consistanlty well with 4 ohm loads.

For an 8 ohm speaker, they are probably fine.

Mt, welcome. No problem at all with the Yamahas as to basic amplification, which can match the Denons, Onkyos, Pioneers, etc. in that regard. When features are considered, in my view the comparison of room equalization systems becomes the deciding factor. The presence of Audyssey in otherwise nearly identically-performing receivers give Denon and Onkyo receivers an edge which leads me to mention them more often.

I agree John. Yammy and Pioneer does not have the edge when it comes to setup and calibration.

Hi all,

I've owned excellent Yamaha stereo gear in years gone by as well as some of their early soundfield processors (prior to the era of Dolby Digital 5.1, etc). Unfortunately in recent years, as FredK has pointed out, there have been issues with some models of Yamaha AV receivers (Pioneer, Sony, Onkyo as well) driving the 4-ohm M80 tower speakers. Because of that history with M80 owners, and also because other inexpensive AV or stereo receivers (Denon, Sherwood Newcastle, Harman-Kardon, Outlaw Audio) have no problems with overheating or shut-down with 4-ohm loads like the M80s, I tend to not recommend Yamaha, Onkyo, or Pioneer receivers for use with any 4-ohm speakers. With 8-ohm or 6-ohm speakers, they're fine.

Regards,

Alan

Damn, all that trolling and chumming the water and not a single bite.

Alan,

I actually emailed one of your reps at Axiom today in regards to the yamaha being able to handle the 4ohm load of the M80's... his response, (and please do not think I am throwing you under the bus if you read this) was that he looked over the yamaha 863 manual and based on what he found felt that the yamaha 863 would have no issue driving the M80's...

I do not want to start a debate over this but I am interested in hearing more in regards to the science behind this reasoning and what your take on the situation is besides previous experience as well as everyone elses approach...

Alan you also mentioned that you have used yamaha receivers in the past... how long ago and what models? Based on what I have read the yamaha's have had a pretty good overhauling over the past few years alone... The amplifier in the 863 is the same that they came out with last year or the year before I believe due to the fact that it is a proven amp and works well under "pressure"?

I am as they say... all ears

Alan and Brent are on the same team, I think Alan is the boss and makes the rules.

Axiom did many tests in their lab in the past. Denon, HK, SN, and a few others proved to have no issues. Yamaha, Onkyo, to name a few, had issues.

All receivers can drive the m80's, the question is to what levels you push them before the built in circuitry protects them. Current models from Onkyo, Pioneer, and Yamaha have proven to be more compatible.

I figured they work together, and I am sure they are both very qualified to answer the question which is why I was thrown off by their contrast in answers making me hesitant to validate either answer as right or wrong. I was not made aware of any testing and until I got a response from Brent after he took the time to actually look at the manual for the 863 (which as a future customer I find VERY appealing) most of the responses in regards to this question of Ohms sounded more like doubt and or peronal preference in regards to the performance of the Yamaha recievers compared to that of their own. from very knowledgable audiophiles either here or at Audioholics... My major concern of course was doing damage to my brand new receiver which I still have quite a bit to learn about. Because of this I want to be sure and knowledgable about what I am attaching to my receiver to be able to make a smart choice.

With that being said please do not take any of my comments, questions or concerns as disrespectful or inconsiderate...

Cheers!

We are not looking at your post as being disrespectful or inconsiderate, if you feel that way. These are questions that come up all the time. Most of us have been around long enough to remember the days when certain brand receivers didn't play nice with 4ohm rated speakers. It is not just Axiom, but other brands as well.

You won't harm your receiver, it has built in circuitry to go into protective mode if needed.

MT. I have based my responses on a couple of things.

1. A conversation with Tom cumberland, the principle engineer at Axiom. He has been in the business a long time and knows many people in the industry including people at Yamaha. According to Tom, in the consumer division, they completely redesign their amps with each new series so you get variation in the quality/power from series to series.

In contrast, he told me that Denon takes an incremental approach to amp design. They keep a base design for a much longer time and make incremental changes over time.

2. I read a number of reviews done at audioholics on Yamaha receivers and it reflected Toms comments. Some receivers well exceeded their stated specs and others just met them.

3. Take a look at similarly priced Denon and Yamaha amps. The Yamis will have a lot more features. Everything has its price. If you add more components/features, you either need to add to the price, or cut back somewhere else. I think Yamaha cuts back on the amp section to deliver more features. For most people, its probably a good trade off.

Hi Mtbound10,

Oh, that's OK. I see all the emails and the audio experts' answers, including your email to Brent and his response. Given the text quoted in the Yamaha manual, I'd agree with Brent. It seems the 863 will be fine with the M80s provided you keep the impedance switch at its highest setting. It seems Yamaha has upgraded the robustness of the amplifier output stages in recent models, if the 863 is any indication and that's a good thing.

Some of my warnings about certain brands go back five years or more and may well be out of date. In recommending certain brands, I err on the side of caution. I know that Denons, Sherwood Newcastles, H/Ks, Outlaws, Rotels have no problems with 4-ohm loads, so that's what I recommend.

We did test quite a few brands when Axiom was deciding to take on an electronics brand that we'd sell on-line, and we wanted one that we knew would be stable driving the M80s, which is one of Axiom's most popular and biggest selling speakers. That's why we picked Sherwood Newcastle, among other reasons.

Regards,

Alan

Whatever happened to Axiom's own pre-pro? Do I dare ask?

Was is a pro-pre ated?

Alan,

Thanks again for all the support. I have not even bought anything from you guys yet and your customer service far exceeds what I see on a daily basis! I am sure we will be talking again soon when I place my order

Cheers,
Matt

<groan>

The 4 ohm posse strikes..........again.

Just to throw some more confusion into the mix...

I drove my M60's for the past 5 years with a Yamaha RX-V1400 and I think it sounded great. Lately I started looking at getting even better sound and I was looking at the M80's. Instead I purchased an Emotiva MPS-2(now discontinued) to try things out. To make the story short, the M60's were transformed. The lower bass is so much stronger and so much more detail as well, they just feel alive. I've been listening to music without a sub for the last two weeks and honestly I don't feel like it's needed(movies excluded).
The Yamaha by itself could play to insanely loud levels without breaking a sweat, but now I can listen at 75-80db and the speakers sing with enough bass to make my hardwood floors vibrate. Before I had to play at much higher db level for the same "sound".

I beleive the newer receivers like the 3808 will prove better than my 5 year old Yamaha though, and the difference between it and a separate amp might be negligable. I have not heard the newer ones though.

Mistico, just don't upgrade to the 80's now, as the MPS-2 may shut down. long story from former MPS-1 owner...

sirquak,
Thanks for the heads up! I read all about it and have voiced my concerns on the emotiva forum for this very reason. No reply there, but to be honest I'm so pleased with how M60's sound now that I probably won't upgrade for a while.

I had m60's for a couple of years and I loved them, however, peer preasure from the m80's club got the best of me.

We'll strike again when the M100s come out.

That was how I felt with the M80s and the A1400. My Denon 3808, much like your Yamaha, can hit very loud +100db levels but the A1400 just worked soooo much better even at the same low db levels, so no, older/newer receivers are not in the same league as seperate amps, IMO.

M60's are awesome

I want you guys to stop talking about amps now, though.

Hey, it's the Hitchhiker's Trilogy!

In all the work we're planning on having done, I'm going to have my HT system put on it's own 20amp circuit just in case Outlaw has a "can't resist" sale someday....

I keep putting the A1400-2 in my shopping cart and then clearing it before I hit enter. My wife has given me the go ahead to buy the A1400-8 as soon as I have saved up for it Anyone need some work done on their cars, it will only cost you $4500 cdn

I give you one more week.

I wish

You people are killing me. Just when FredK and JohnK and their troops convince me there is very little to be gained by adding an amp, you flying monkeys come out singing your hypnotic notes from the wicked witch about the clear improvements in almost all respects from upgrading.

I assume there is no chance Alan would step in with some double-blind test results of the A-1400(s) on M60s and M80s to "prove" the upgrade is more than just a placebo. Right Alan, no chance of that...no reason to be waiting around for a new article...right?

You know, I would love to spend a day at Axiom doing blind listening for to different speakers and amps/receivers etc.

As would I Fred, as would I.

I auditioned some Paradigms this past weekend due to not being able to find a close enough Axiom owner. The guy I talked with was amenable and appeared knowledgeable. In the course of the hour I spent, he engaged me in conversation about my "system". I told him that I had purchased a Yamaha 663 but had some regrets due to the lack of independant crossovers. He said that they were thinking of picking up Yamaha in light of Tweeter shutting down. Their primary receiver is the Pioneer Elite series. I asked about Denon - his response is that they used to carry Denon. I asked why and he said that recent Denons were experiencing problems with their circuitry - "blowing up" to be exact. I have not seen anything about that problem but thought I would ask the Denonites here if this was just his "pitch" because they don't carry Denon?

This is the only forum I frequent, but it's never been mentioned here even once!

Sounds like a pretty bad sales-pitch line to me!

Sounds like BS to me.

Ball one, outside!!

Denon is widely regarded as very dependable, sounds like he was trying to sway you in their direction.

From my experience, in this case, Denon, more than likely pulled the plug on them, not the other way around. The large mainstream companies want the retailer to have plenty of shelf space and sell a certain minimum amount to maintain a competitive wholesale discount level. This retailer probably did neither. When it comes to where I might buy, my rule of thumb has always been and always will be, if you walk in to a retailer and the sales person starts knocking equipment they don't sell, turn around and walk out.

Did anyone follow the link Johnk put up the other day to a discussion on denon receivers? It was a forum populated by Dennon dealers/integrators.

One of the dealers posted that he had a lot of issues with the 3 digit series Dennons recently. He had expressed concern that it was an issue with receivers manufactured outside of Japan.

Actually, the thread is a very interesting read, whether or not you accept what this particular dealer posted. It seems the CI line has a series of features available only to dealer/integrators.

I'm not trying to sling mud here, I just thought that particular post might be relevant.

Some people take the "balls out" attitude in life, to the extreme.

See, I clicked on that link, but I saw the title before it loaded and closed the tab. Fool me once...

you're an internet lightweight.

It is a small shop that specializes in Custom installations - it just happens to be the only game in town other than BB. He did say that Business has been very bad with the economy in the state it has been in. Of course he was checking out my "system" with an eye towards additional sales beyond the Paradigms. Any time a salesman speaks down about a product that they don't carry, my radar goes off.......

Zimm, i've done some in-home true A/B blind testing with a few solid state amps and a switcher. It was some time ago but the bottom line was sound quality did not change. If there was some kind of a differnce it was usually related to things like a ground loop hum with one unit, and not another, or with power output and higher SPL levels. The switcher was made by an electronics guru friend of a friend who was also once a believer that all amps sound distinctly different, until the two fellows relented to the idea of trying a blind A/B test and now both of them are re-evaluating 20 years of former beliefs, albeit rather slowly.

I do have an Anthem amp hooked up with a Cambridge Audio receiver to power a pair of Tannoy Definition speakers for our main floor. On occasion i do like to turn up the volume (and on occasion a tv channel has a low volume) and i quite easily reach the point where i hit distortion somewhere about the 102dB mark (at around 10 feet). The room is larger than our basement media room, but at the same linear distance my Axioms and an Onkyo receiver can hit 104-106dB before distortion is audible. To eek out those few more decibels, i need something more robust.
I have had those Tannoys hooked up to a beefier amp in the past (a Coda) and at the elevated SPL, it does make a difference but in regards to distortion. The Anthem amp just runs out of juice. I will be looking for a small Class A/AB amp in the future with more capacitance and i do have my eye on the new Axiom 2 channel offering.

Thanks, that was a refreshing view. I've come to think (for now!) that the issue is volume and dynamic range. I think much of the real difference between a "cheap" AVR and a good AVR or separate amp has to do with the lack of instantaneous power to cleanly reproduce peaks - all the more so with 5 and 7 channel systems. Add to that a loud listening level and problem becomes more serious. Based on Alan stat of 16db peaks, and reports showing all channel driven power can be 1/3 the FTC power I see the distinction.

Still not sure of what to make of the live/pro amps, put out over 500wpc into 8 ohms for under $800. Even Emotiva (or Jake's Amp Shack for that matter) don't claim such lofty numbers.

Those live/pro amps have more THD with their specs, still under 1%, so I think you can believe the ratings.

The pro amps also have fans, which can by noisy unless you are willing to open the case and replace them with something quiteter. The Behringer EP2500 is a steal even in the pro-amp catagory.

There is also the purdy factor. Not everyone goes for the industrial look.

To me its like driving an econobox vs a (insert your favourite stylish vehicle here). They both do their job of transporting you just fine.

I think it might be more like a new Mercedes SLK vs an old muscle car both get you there quick one does it quietly and in style.

Although from the reports I have seen, many of the fans in the pro amps are heat activated so they are not on all the time and the ones that are on all the time, the owners state the fans are less noisy than their favorite gaming console fan.

I love my purdy things, but I don't mind hiding the ugly stuff either. I may go by guitar center today and grab one to test. They have a 30 day return deal. If they can give a real 300 or more watts without noticeable noise I may give it a try.

Go balls out

I've always wondered if a pro amp hidden in the back of the closet would just give me gobs of power without me being able to hear the fan much.

Of course, I'd miss the pretty lights. Especially if they are blue!

Behringer is to pro audio as pinto is to nascar

This QSC has a real bright blue LED in front that won't be good at night. Need to cover that up. But 700 w/c at 4 ohms is nice to have.