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#256425 - 04/11/09 07:45 PM Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. [Re: tomtuttle]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle

Even if you chose the wrong mains. \:\)

LOL! ;\)

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
I had a similar occurrence with Audyssey and the QS8's (a pretty high xover point). Weird.

So did you change them to 80 Hz? I vaguely remember reading it's OK to manually 'raise' x-overs, but that if you 'lower' them, Audessy does not control that range (like 80Hz - 150Hz on my back QS8's. Anyone confirm or contradict this?

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Will you be using the Ceiling FMB for the QS8's? My inclination would be to use that method AND to angle them a bit.

No FMB's for my ceiling mount application. I want more space than the ceiling clearance FMB's allow (2" not tilted, 3-4" tilted). I am creating my own DIY brackets. I'll post photos when I get into making them. Are your backs tilted? Are your HT pics up on Axiom?

You have a good week end as well.

Cheers
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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#256426 - 04/11/09 07:55 PM HIgh x-over set by Audyssey for back Q's wahh! [Re: dewd]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: dewd
It is safe to adjust up, but not down.

D'OH ! ! ! I should have read down two posts before replying and asking this question. Thanks for confirming my poor memory.

So why in the heck did my old 5 1/4" driver Bic America V52's as backs way on the back wall always get set to 80Hz by Audyssey (and, Randy, when I run Audyssey the crossover points for each pair of speakers & center are set. Maybe it is the 1909, but to me, it happens when I run Audyssey ;o) and the QS8's get set to 150Hz?? Audyssey must not be hearing the up and down firing drivers of the Q's is the only explanation I can guess. HEY, maybe this is the way I can determine the best angle for my back QS8's! play with angle until the (top only) driver(s) raises the Audyssey set crossover point! I'll try this. Now I just need to devise a way to add an adjustable tilt on my temporary stands.

What are people doing about Audyssey set high x-overs?
What x-overs are your side and back QS8's set to by Audyssey?


Edited by davekro (04/11/09 08:01 PM)
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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#256428 - 04/11/09 08:18 PM Re: HIgh x-over set by Audyssey for back Q's wahh! [Re: davekro]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
In reading the Audyssey thread on AVS, I'm pretty sure Chris from Audyssey says the speaker "small" or "large" setting and crossover settings are determined by the receiver, not Audyssey.

I've also read that when your speakers are very high, like you have them, it might cause strange settings. Have you followed the setup guide posted over at AVS's thread?
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#256431 - 04/11/09 08:29 PM Re: HIgh x-over set by Audyssey for back Q's wahh! [Re: SirQuack]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
It does appear Audyssey sets the appropriate crossover frequency, but does not determine the "size" of the speaker. My guess is your results may have to do with placement of the speakers within your room, acoustic properties of your room, or where you had the mic in relation to the speakers. Your rear Qs8's are just floating in space with no wall behind them, that may have something to do with it, not sure.

From the Audyssey Website:

Why does Audyssey set my speakers to Large (or Small) when I know they are not?

MultEQ does not set the speakers to Large or Small. This is a decision made by each individual AVR manufacturer and each uses a different speaker roll-off frequency to make this decision. Audyssey recommends the decision should be made using 40 Hz as the roll- off frequency. That is to say, if a speaker is found to roll-off below 40 Hz it should be called Large and all other speakers should be called Small.

If your AVR manufacturer sets your speakers to Large then all content below the crossover frequency is lost as it is not redirected to the subwoofer. Audyssey recommends changing the speaker setting to Small manually after the calibration is finished.

During automatic set-up MultEQ first finds how many loudspeakers are connected in the system, then determines the loudspeaker type (satellite or subwoofer), checks the absolute polarity of each channel, and identifies the optimum crossover frequency for each loudspeaker and the subwoofer(s). After that it calculates the distance between each loudspeaker and the first microphone position in order to automatically sets the appropriate delays. Finally, it identifies any level differences among the loudspeakers and automatically sets the trims.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#256444 - 04/11/09 10:57 PM Re: HIgh x-over set by Audyssey for back Q's wahh! [Re: SirQuack]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10359
The difference between the frequency which is sent to the sub because of the crossover setting and the frequency which is subject to the Audyssey equalization should be kept in mind. For example, if a "small" speaker has its crossover which was set at 120Hz during auto-calibration manually changed to 80Hz, the frequencies from 80Hz to 120Hz aren't lost, but stay with the speaker rather than being sent to the sub. The separate factor of the Audyssey equalization couldn't operate below 120Hz for that speaker because Audyssey only equalized it down to 120Hz(and manually changing it to 80Hz doesn't add equalization down to that frequency). This lack of equalization for those frequencies may or may not have any audible effect.
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#256450 - 04/11/09 11:36 PM Re: HIgh x-over set by Audyssey for back Q's wahh! [Re: JohnK]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
Audyssey recommends 40hz as the determination if a speaker should be small or large, this is the criteria then used by the receiver manufacturers (Denon, NAD, Onkyo, etc.) which then set the speakers size setting during the setup. This is followed by Audyssey setting the appropriate crossover for each speaker. Marantz is the only company that still has not come onboard like the other Audyssey enabled products, and they still use 80hz for the small/large determination. In these cases you will have to manually change the speakers setting to small.

Dave, below is a response Chris from Audyssey gave another person about lowering the crossover point Audyssey finds.

"If you lower the crossover then you won't be getting any MultEQ correction below the rolloff point that was found. MultEQ stops correcting below that point to avoid overboosting below the –3 dB point of the speaker (as it measures in your room)."
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#256452 - 04/11/09 11:43 PM Re: HIgh x-over set by Audyssey for back Q's wahh! [Re: davekro]
dewd Offline
local

Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 200
Loc: Mechanicsburg, PA, USA
 Originally Posted By: davekro

So why in the heck did my old 5 1/4" driver Bic America V52's as backs way on the back wall always get set to 80Hz by Audyssey (and, Randy, when I run Audyssey the crossover points for each pair of speakers & center are set. Maybe it is the 1909, but to me, it happens when I run Audyssey ;o) and the QS8's get set to 150Hz?? Audyssey must not be hearing the up and down firing drivers of the Q's is the only explanation I can guess. HEY, maybe this is the way I can determine the best angle for my back QS8's! play with angle until the (top only) driver(s) raises the Audyssey set crossover point! I'll try this. Now I just need to devise a way to add an adjustable tilt on my temporary stands.

What are people doing about Audyssey set high x-overs?
What x-overs are your side and back QS8's set to by Audyssey?


Because the speakers were "on the back wall", which boosted the lows. My QS8's are set for 90 hz on the sides and 120 hz in the back. It is all about rooms and placement....
_________________________
Dave
Audyssey Setup Guide

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#256454 - 04/11/09 11:47 PM Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. [Re: SirQuack]
dewd Offline
local

Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 200
Loc: Mechanicsburg, PA, USA
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
True Dave, I forgot about Chris mentioning that on AVS. \:\)

Hey, just checked your website, looks like the pictures are not loading? Also, I just started a thread in the technical area about considering a new Onkyo, if you have any feedback that would be great.. \:\)


I did see your thread earlier, but I can't really add anything constructive since I have M60's. Yes, my website could stand some TLC.


Edited by dewd (04/11/09 11:47 PM)
_________________________
Dave
Audyssey Setup Guide

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#256462 - 04/12/09 02:12 AM Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. [Re: dewd]
Captain4105 Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 124
Loc: Southern California
All this techno talk regarding Audyssey and the initial setup confuses a simple man like me. In an earlier post didn't you show a picture of the Denon manual Dave? My gosh, I was initially looking to buy the 2309 but picture scared me. Together with the reports of a poor performing remote and other complexities I would now rather another recommendation for a simpler surround receiver for what I think I may purchase...the M60's. My room is much smaller than Dave's about 2100 Cu ft. (it's a bedroom). Does anyone think the M80's to have a significant advantage over and against the M60's in my medium sized room? It may be hard enough to squeeze in the 60's. The 80's would certainly require some furniture removal, but it could be done and will be if indeed the 80's are judged by me to be superior. I am not one who wants to test things out and return items. I hope to make a decision based on these posts. I have a sub and will use the set up mostly for music. So I guess I am asking two questions....a simpler surround receiver (for M60's) other than a Denon and which speaker's sound would be maximized most cost efficiently with a sub for classical and oldies from past 30 years. If this request seems redundant...well it is (this is rough decision for me to make). Thanks...Lee

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#256463 - 04/12/09 02:31 AM Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. [Re: Captain4105]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
The M80s are only a couple inches deeper and taller than the M60's, if you have room for the 60, I would bet the 80s would fit just as easily.

Going with the M80 in any size room you still have the benefit of the better low end and detail they offer, IMO.
_________________________
Jason
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