Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions AV receivers for music?

Hello all. I guess this is a bit of a newbie question, but it seems AV receivers aren't so great for music, right? I just got a used Pioneer VSX-915 AV receiver, and although movie soundtracks sound pretty impressive on my monitors, music is quite dull and disappointing. Too bright, lacking in bass, and simply not full. How is it possible that a movie soundtrack can sound so full, but not music? By the way, I have just two monitors, and no other speakers at the moment.

Is my best option then to buy a good 2-channel amp for music, and use the pioneer as a preamp when listening to music?

What are the settings on the receiver. Have you went through them at all?

What was the music source? CD? I've always found the better your amp/reciever and speakers the more hollow or harsh a bad recording will sound. Maybe it was the particual CDs or every music source sounds not so full?

I've used cds and have connected my pc as well. It's true, that some cds are much better sources than others. I'm listening to beck right now, and it sounds pretty good.

Still seems like something's missing on the low end though.

I'm running DM603 S3s by the way.

Outlaw Audio RR2150

My Denon AVR sounds great for BOTH music and home theater listening, as should the Pioneer.

What denon avr do you have? My pioneer is more or less an entry level avr, that cost $400 when new...

It shouldn't matter. That Pioneer should do a great job.

Could be you are just accustomed to bass heavy systems like so many car audio enthusists build. have you heard your present speakers with 2 channel amps in your present room? It could also be the room is sucking the life out of the music or your present speakers are too hard(low sensitivity) for the amp to drive to good levels as bass is the hardest to reproduce.

With a Sensitivity rating of 90dB I can't see it being the Pio not being up to driving them to serious levels. Could be positioning, the room itself, the settings on the avr and a host of other reasons.

I doubt it's the Pio unless the room is a cavern.

No, I haven't heard the speakers with just a 2-channel amp. At least not in my living room. Perhaps the room is too big? It's 20 by 30 feet with tiled floors. I have the speakers toed in and sit 10-12 feet away. The weird thing is, sometimes the bass is satisfying, and on other recordings it seems way too weak. All with the same settings on the AVR, and all professional recordings (beck, dave matthews, d'angelo, etc.)

I should also say that I haven't cranked the avr up totally. That's because the with the lack of bass, the highs just get too overbearing when I turn it up too much.

Sounds like it's more of an issue with the speakers and the recordings!

SOunds like it is just the music and recordings

maybe, but I've read that a powerful 2-channel amp can really make the speakers sing, so I'm on the lookout for one. Probably used first, just to see the difference it makes.

Anyone ever use a NAD 3020? I can probably get one used on ebay for pretty cheap, and I've read only good things about them.

If the recorded material includes vocals, the speakers will "sing"; the amplification has nothing to do with it.

Maybe a stereo shop would allow you to demo one for a weekend just to see if it makes any difference. I know of one here in town that does this sort of thing, pick up the component late Saturday and return it Monday morning.

dmbartender, what speakers are you using?

Edit: N/M, B&W 603's. Nice speakers, BTW. I've heard 603's before, while demoing before my M60/80 purchase. I wouldn't have described them as bright. If anything, they were a bit on the "warm" side. Pleasant though. Their range is 44Hz–22kHz, ±3dB, so they certainly should be (and are, from my experience) able to produce decent bass. And they're 8-ohm speakers, so they should be easy for just about any AVR or amp to drive.

You could certainly *try* a dedicated amp with them and see if it makes any difference. Some say amps matter, others say they don't. The only way to know is to try it out for yourself. Borrowing one from a local shop would be ideal, but I doubt many would do that unless you have a good relationship with them already. If you buy one new online, most online-only retailers (Emotiva, Outlaw, Axiom, Amazon, etc) have full return policies if it doesn't work out.

Another option would be to just get a new/better receiver. That would give you new and potentially worthwhile features and a more powerful amplification section. Might be more fun/useful than just slapping an amp in the system.

But do check your receiver's settings. Check crossovers, connections, and sound modes. Make sure you don't have something "weird" somehow set up so that on 2-channel music it's not using the sub when it should be, or some such thing.

Could be. But the VSX-918V-K (rated slightly higher, at 120wpc, than this -915) hits 1.0% distortion (not 0.1%) into 8 ohms at 36.7 watts. Now I know all amps are the same, and all that, but come on, if the amp is making 1% distortion at 36 watts (like its big brother) then you can't assume the amp is capable of good sound. Given his issue is bass notes, I'd think a does of clean power would help provide those peaks he is missing as his amp goes into progressively greater distortion as he demands more bass.
As Peter says, a new AVR would be the more practical approach.

Interesting arguments...is 0.1% distortion average? My amp at 1% would be pretty disappointing in that case, at least as far as this characteristic is concerned.

Has anyone had any experience with a marantz 4002 or 4003? I've read many reviews that marantz are great for music. Unfortunately, I can't test any avr or amp without buying one first.

1% is considered the point at which we can start to hear distortion, so a receiver that can produce it's ratings at less than 1% is better than one that is rated at 1% for its given power spec.

Zimm. You should give This article in Axiom's archive a read. Our ears are not equally sensitive to all frequencies.

I've heard some multichannel receivers which are terrific for 2 channel music. Perhaps the most surprising was a dirt cheap ($150 at Fry's) Technics SADX 940. Sounded great. Onkyo tx ds 898 also had great sound quality. My friend has an old Outlaw 1050, wonderful sound quality in 2 channel.

The older Technics got high marks and either were right on with their power rating or surpassed it. I had one that my brother now uses.

My old Sony ES1000 does a fantastic job in 2 channel listening. I've given my m80's several high decibel workouts without any shutdown issues or distortion problems.

Okay, I read it. Very interesting. But still, 1% is noticeable at many frequencies. And here, am I correct to assume that the 1% figure will increase sharply as the he begs for more watts? 37 watts in an average room at 12 feet gives _____ db (I don't know, fill it in for me).

Sorry, I just can't buy it. Hitting audible distortion, even in a small frequency range, at less than 40 watts does not cause me to blame the B&W 600 series speakers, or the architect. I can buy that 100 watts is good enough for most listening, and 50 will do fine for background music. But come on Fred, there has to be some point at which you no longer say any amp will do when the guy is having problems generating acceptable bass on decent speakers? Right? Come on, work with me here. It's the amp Fred, say it, its the amp.

Here is what I'm trying to describe. Possibly off base here, but here it is:



and:



It's your amp buddy - Alan says so.

Well, if you're (note punctuation) THE deaf monk, I think you have it exactly right.

You can always search out an online calculator to give you a number. I know at 8' I can play at 90db and will require around 65w for those 12db peaks Alan talks about.

I actually agree with you on that 1% distortion at 37w. I have no idea what the relationship between power increase and distortion is, but it can only go up. I bet it varies depending on the specs of the components involved.

I posted the link when you wrote about distorted bass.

Charles? The 918 has to output over 120 watts(pursuant to the rating)at 1.0% distortion.

You might also check what EQ setting the amp is using. Try turning any EQ off to hear the music in it's unmodified state. I am referring to any auto-eq adjustments done during setup and to any preset EQ settings like [Statium], [Jazz] or [Rock]. Not saying you won't find an EQ setting that you actually prefer, but it's a worthy experiment.

Mine accidentally got set to [Flat] one time and even my wife commented on how horrible everything sounded. Movies automatically switched back to [None] so movies still seemed great. Puzzled me until I found the discrepancy.

Of course the ultimate experiment is the simplest. Borrow another amp to swap in and out. Make sure both have all EQ settings off so it is an equal comparison and that both are calibrated to the same sound levels with a db meter so you don't automatically prefer the louder one. Ignore minor nuances unless you can do a true, double blind, test but if one is actually as bad as you suspect because it is broken or what have you, then such a major difference should be apparent.

I went from an entry level RX-V461 (that I still use in another room)@ 100 watts per channel and weighed about 18 lbs total, to the RX-V2700 @ 140 watts per channel and weighs around 40 lbs.

The difference in performance is significant. The 2700 sounds much more powerful. More robust and full through the whole sound stage. The little 461 is very good though and for its price a very nice reciever. Maybe the old "you get what you pay for?"

Still sounds like the individual recordings are at fault for lack of bass.

No surprise, but I did not do this test myself. See Home Theater Mag test at HT test.
Unless I am reading their test results wrong, they found that with all channels driven it hit 1% under 40 watts. In two channel it made the 150 range at 1% you would expect, but they don't say what frequency range that number came from. Wouldn't that indicate this amp has little power in reserve, and thus the bass peaks (needing 16 times the power, Alan describes) that are evading this listener could be due to the amp? Room, placement, reflections, etc, all still on the board as options.

Charles, you're reading the test report right, but you're emphasizing what're probably the least significant numbers in real-world home use. The all-channel driven number isn't what the rating is based on(the usual two channels driven measurement for five continuous minutes, to meet the FTC regs)and doesn't represent what happens playing music at home. Even one channel rarely would have to supply full rated power, much less all channels simultaneously.

It's necessary to read between the lines a bit and Home Theater Magazine is one of those which test at 1000Hz. At the 20Hz or 20KHz(could be either)frequency extremes the result would be on the order of 5-10% lower. The two channel driven results shown on the graph and described beneath it indicate that over 100 watts would in fact be available.

Damn, I was so close. I fell for the bold print!
So what would make this amp trip up at 40 watts with all ch driven, where so many other AVRS can come relatively close to their single/stereo ch levels? Power supply limitations?
I continue my search for specs that matter...

Yup.

Well then, that still seems relevant. I wish all mfg would adopt the CES testing methods, at least the unwashed masses, such as myself, could compare apples to apples - even if the apples have nothing to do with the steak we are cooking!

What is the point of marketing if you can't unfairly influence prospective buyers to thinking that whatever wares you are hawking are better than that other stuff.

Oh...and also?

Shower already, dude.

Can't argue with that, but I was surprised that in the mobile audio end, the CES standards allowed the better companies to show they had dependable products that were not full of BS. That forced the lower-end companies to either step or have the obvious omission of the key testing criteria. It really helped. I saw a AVR review recently that tested using the CES measurements, so hopefully it will begin tricking into the mfg test as well. I won't hold my breath.

Charles, you don't need to hold your breath; the FTC regs governing the power specs of home entertainment amplifiers have been in effect for over 20 years. As I've pointed out previously, this is the one area of audio that's subject to mandatory standards and where we can feel confident that the claims are true. The irony is that many of the same audio enthusiasts who believe or are at least willing to take seriously unsubstantiated claims about the "sound" of players, amplifiers and even pieces of wire view with extreme suspicion the official power rating numbers. When we read, for example, "100 watts, 20Hz-20KHz, maximum 0.08% THD, 8 ohms(FTC)" that's what we get, as the independent lab tests have consistently shown.

"CES" in an audio context usually refers to the Consumer Electronics Show, so you may be referring to the CEA(Consumer Electronics Association)suggested voluntary standard(unlike the mandatory FTC regs)for car amplifier specs that was published about 5-6 years ago, and which some use. Again, stronger mandatory rules for home amplifiers have long been in effect.

It's just the specs are written a lttle misleadingly. Too many people think they are getting a 700W all channels driven amp, when in fact they are only getting 100W on one channel with 1/8th power on the rest.

I thought the same as Jay when I read your post last night John.

Has anybody ever investigated and written about real world power usage in a 5.1 system? I have no idea how much power any of the speakers draw at any given point during use.

Even when it comes to dynamic peaks. Do those peaks appear across all speakers at the same time? If this is the case, I would imagine a modest receiver could run out of power very quickly, even at lower volumes.

FOr most uses, there is usually very little demand on ALL channels driven but if you are one that likes to listen to 5/6/7 channel stereo and crank it up, a modest receiver will run out of power very quickly. I would think even during loud battle scenes and such a modest receiver could run low on power.

I see that written a lot, but I have never seen a reference to empirical data.

I listen to everything 5.1 and my receiver delivers 90wpc 2 channels driven.

By the way, it took me a long time to figure out why my receiver is rated at 100w x 5 but only delivers 90w, 2 channels driven AND how those statements are not contradictory.

...and? Don't keep us in suspense.

Does FTC testing require 20 to 20? I thought it only required 1 frequency, which is what caused the BS wattage arms race to begin years ago. Everybody had a 1000 watt amp when run at 15,000 hz.
If FTC means 20-20 then ok, I'm coming around. Now a dumb [dumber?] question: does your comment only apply when they cite "FTC" or any time they claim 20 to 20? I don't want to assume FTC if that is not the case.

Finally, yes I meant CEA, not CES. Good catch. I think to get CES certified, you have to have neon lights hooked up to the amp, and the sub must spin. Still working on that in my HT - wires keep getting tangled.

No, the regs don't require that the manufacturers test at any specific frequency or range of frequencies, but the frequency has to be specifically stated in conjunction with the power number. Typically the 20Hz-20KHz range is used for the testing and the published specs, with a 1KHz number(typically 5-10% higher)sometimes listed as a supplementary figure, or as the basic rating for some less expensive units.

For example, I'll quote the spec for a receiver that cost $151 delivered as a factory refurb: "75 watts minimum continuous power per channel, 8 ohm loads, 2 channels driven from 20Hz to 20 kHz, with a maximum total harmonic distortion of 0.08%. 100 watts minimum continuous power per channel, 6 ohm loads, 2 channels driven at 1 kHz, with a maximum total harmonic distortion of 0.1%" These are the specs from the measurements pursuant to the FTC regs(at least 5 continuous minutes at the full rated power). Additional numbers(higher)follow, under standards suggested by industry groups in various countries.