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Re: Speakers just arrived! Question.
Adrian #255908 04/07/09 08:43 PM
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::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Speakers just arrived! Question.
MarkSJohnson #255909 04/07/09 08:46 PM
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\:D \:D pass the salt please!


Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
Re: Speakers just arrived! Question.
Adrian #255916 04/07/09 09:27 PM
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OK all, I'm back, up for air. Funny it takes a lot longer to get things set up than I initially think... even with two of us. Remember, I'm slow, but I do poor work!
1) unboxing,
2) putting on spikes
3) removing spikes to install rubber feet (Jay I concur, spikes were less stable on my carpet)
4) wiring the speaker selector box
5) pulling gear to move to bottom shelf to make room for the VP150 on the top shelf (1" too wide to have components on each side <sigh> ;o)
6) pulling the in-wall side surrounds, making a temporary backing plate to mount QS8 brackets to.
7) run temporary back 7.1 wires across the floor to where the back QS8 (temporary) stands will be placed
8) manually set SPL on all speakers to 75dB with RS meter...
....FL 80's +4.0, 60's +5.5
....FR 80's +4.0, 60's +5.5
....CC VP150 0.0 (but I bumped to +2.0 while watching a movie)
....SL QS8 +4.5
....SR QS8 +4.5
....SBL V-52 +4.5 (old Bic V-52's still on back wall)
....SBR V-52 +4.0
....SW (3) -3.0 (Paradigm Servo-15a, (2) KLH 10" 120w)

Still to do:
a) Make temporary stands for back QS8's to move around backs to find best compromise of ceiling mount location
b) Mount QS8 back an connect wires
c) test back QS8 locations
d) remove one side surr. QS8 and re-install in-wall for comparison to QS8. (I was a bit surprised that I could hear the location of the QS8's on the sides. They may nor be AS localized as the direct firing in-walls, but I'll test to see... in a few days)
e) paint my 'DIY' QS8 ceiling brackets, them mount back QS8's (this week end?)

More listening to do over time for QS8 effect and locations (backs). I will report my initial impressions in my next post.(this one too long already...) This post is just to rationalize why my energy is low today. <must just sit down and watch movie. stop designing, figuring calculating, evaluating. shutting down processors for a few hours to actually relax and enjoy. OCD will be there when I finish relaxing...>


Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."
My replies
davekro #255920 04/07/09 10:00 PM
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* As Mark suggested before via PM, I have not taken the time to run Audyssey on the Axioms/1909, I've just manually set channel levels to 75dB with RS meter. (Distances were still good) All speakers (still) set to small (3 subs ;o).

1) Rick WID, JohnK- Low ohm load concern: not an issue. I did just realize this morning that the protection circuit was engaged for our A/B listening tests on fronts last night. :o( off now) Though, before getting the hang of turning OFF 'A' before turning ON 'B', did not hurt. ;\)
2) RickF-Pictures... careful what you ask for <too late>! \:\) I will have plenty of photos of all stages including building the back QS8 DIY brackets.
3) FredK, "receiver <-- " Hey putz, turn me down!! Thats a 4Ohm load. I'm getting hot here..." (glad I'm not the only one that inanimate objects talk to! \:D
4) FredK, "Don't forget to try an M60 as a center" I'm scared to! ;o) ...but I will. The VP150 has a much different sound (in my application. On shelf below 73" DLP, not enclosed, but there is are two wood panels directly behind it. Photo later.) I can see why (grunt?) kept lobbying for an M22 as a center IPO the VP150. I bumped the CC level up from 0.0 to +2.0dB for better dialog loudness. Hmmn. All spkrs are crossed at 80Hz, except the CC. I did not change from pre Axiom settings. Maybe changing CC to 80Hz as well might help?? I will do this before my (upcoming) relax period.
5) Charles: "Everything that guy said is Bull$^!+ ! Math? We don't need no stink'en Math. The key is better speaker wire, that will fix all your concerns. ;\)" Oh, I'm covered on wire. I have run 0000 AWG (.46") oxygen free wire through metal conduit, from the AVR to all speakers. The wife thinks the 1 1/2" conduit running through the living room is a problem. She had NO IDEA her glee from seeing the Klipsch Cornwalls leave the living room, might have a down side! \:D

(Oh yeh, that was a short post, Dave ;o)


Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."
Re: My replies
davekro #255925 04/07/09 10:28 PM
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 Quote:
I'm slow, but I do poor work!


But at least you're expensive, too.

I'm really looking forward to your listening review. It's not that I don't enjoy and appreciate the setup/engineering stuff, but it would be nice to see you relax \:\)

Keep in mind that the differences you perceive in the timbre of the VP150 are not necessarily a product of the speaker, but more likely from placement/positioning. The way I understand your setup, you probably don't have a lot of flexibility there, but it's worth trying a few things before providing grist to the insatiable "VP150 Weak Link" club.

I don't know why you WOULDN'T cross the VP150 at 80Hz.

Have fun. Post pictures. \:\)


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: My replies
davekro #255939 04/08/09 12:41 AM
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OK, I made you suffer through all that BS before getting to my initial impressions! ;\)

Like I said above, by mistake, the protection circuit, was 'ON', on the speaker switching box. (It is now off) When I turned it Off, the SPL went up 2.5dB. Meaning. with prot. cir. ON, while testing last night, the channel level to achieve 75dB was set to +6.5dB, with prot. cir. Off, ch level can be set to +4.0.

****** So the caveat on these initial impressions are with the PROTECTION CIRCUIT ON (from last night).****** AND, these are mine and my friends feelings of the sound in my room. We are not audiophiles and have a very limited audio vocabulary.

- Testing was done in Direct mode (just L& R fronts). No sub unless noted.
- when sub was included, I used 'CD Virtual' mode (the only mode I found on the 1909 the included just front L&R + sub)
- Speaker placement: 60's and 80's were next to each other side by side 1" apart at front. This 1" gap was 4' from Sound Stage Center (SSC). So the (centers of) outer set was spaced about 8' 9" apart. while inner pair was spaced at about 7'3" apart. Round one had 60's outside. Round two, their positions switched.
* Spkrs were toed in pointing at SSC 12' back (primary seat)
* Spkrs were ≈ 15-20" from front wall. The fronts of the outer speakers were 4" further from back wall to keep their grill surfaces even or in line.
* Distance from side walls of the '1" center gap' (between spkrs) was 7' on both sides. [note: LF spkr(s) has a wall to ceiling shelf 2.5' to their left. 'Outer' spkr is 5" forward of bookkshelf, 'inner' is 2" forward of BS (again, grills face equally towards SSC as if they combined as one spkr grill).
- Switching from 'A' to 'B'. One person sat SSC 12' back from SSC. The other operated the switch from just in front of TV, but near it to impact sound as little as possible.

The M60's sounded very good. The sound stage was focused in the center of the Sound Stage (SS). The mids and highs were more pronounced. The vocals were more pronounced. On good recordings (DS,Brothers in Arms, EC Unplugged), this was perceived as a plus. Vocals were clear and easily understood.(all comments contrast to the 'other M' being tested) Switching to 80's on same passages, vocals seemed more muted. We preferred the 60's here for vocals.

We guessed that the 'perceived' more forward, bright highs and mids, may have just been that the 60's did not have as powerful and deep of base reproduction, thus 'appearing' stronger on mids and highs. [note, my buddy, Steve, preferred the 60's with the sub engaged, when we did this later. (to engage sub, I used 'CD Virtual' mode, since it was the only mode I found on the 1909 that played the front L&R + sub)]

The M80's:
Over all we both clearly preferred the M80's. (large room 31'l x 23'w, over 6,500 cu ft.) Compared to the 60's Sound Stage being focused in the center, the 80's SS immediately upon switching, filled the entire SS from left to right. The sound was significantly fuller in this big space. As mentioned above, vocals seemed less pronounced than with the 60's, but the rest of the sound seemed far fuller and richer than the 60's. I will keep both pairs hooked up for further testing. Remember, by mistake, all the above was listened to last night with the speaker switch box's protection circuit 'ON'! (changing to 'OFF' this morning [as it will stay now], the SPL level went up 2.5dB.)

Misc. sound quality comments:
Boy do I get what people always say about poorly recorded CD' sounding bad! We did most of our critical listening with DS Brothers in Arms (dig. remastered), EC Unplugged and a few minutes of Dave M. & Tim R. Live at RC (it was late and we were hitting the wall). All was sounding nice with our various opinions on M80 vs. M60. When we got to a CD I had just bought, Best of Scorpions, Holy Crap! That M60 preferred for vocal clarity had the lead singer's voice shrill and piercing. I had to turn it off, fast. Then on to Black Sabbath/ Paranoid. Ooooh, that is a poor recording, Steve says. Maybe later on I'll experiment with different sound fields for those poor recordings.
Anyone have any suggestions on a sound field or other way they find helps with the poorer CD's short comings, especially rock?

Center VP150:
I was a little disappointed in not being able understand the dialog well enough with CC channel levels set match all others at 75dB on RS SPL meter. After a while, Steve said why not just bump the CC level up a bit. DUH! I changed the CC channel level from it's SPL meter setting of 0.00 to +2.0. That was better. I now wish I HAD ordered one M22 to try as a center! Julie and I nixed the idea, because there is not enough clearance in shelf under the TV, EVEN IF I removed the glass shelf. \:\( (OEM Mitsub. stand which looks the same as RickF has) Julie and I felt would not like a speaker sitting in front of the TV/stand combo. Now I'm thinking If it sounded night and day better, we may want to reconsider.

RickF, I believe you have the exact same stand and you do have a VP150 below your TV (Mits. 73"?). Does the following feel true for you in your set up?
--- When running the Denon test tones, the VP150 has a much different sound than both the 60's and 80's. I don't know if this contributes to my perception of the CC not being loud enough. [note; both Steve and I have some hearing loss. I have a hard time hearing conversation if spoken low. I actually can not hear crickets or the alarm on my digital watch on my wrist. (high frequencies I guess). The hearing loss may contribute. I will test with 'known good ears', Julie's, and report back later. \:\)
RickF, do you leave your CC channel level where Audyssey sets it? OH,maybe this CC issue will go away or subside after running Audyssey. Hmmmmn... maybe I will try running Audyssey before Julie gets home (if dog is quiet enough... in garage?? :o) VP150 is angled directly at the list. pos. ear ht.

QS8's as side surrounds: I was a bit surprised that the Q's did seem a bit localized. This may be from to high an expectation of not being able to hear that the sound was coming directly from the side. I'll have to pay attention if I hear the sound from up high (7'), where they are. (top of QS8 is 11" from ceiling) I have stared at them and it seems the sound is coming from them. As I relax and use the system going forward, I'll see if my perception changes. I just had read it was a night and day difference. When I feel like bothering, in several days maybe, I'll swap out one side Q and put back the in-wall (8" Kevlar woofer, 1" alum. tweeter) to see how the SL & SR compare. That should be a good test.

I don't know if today, I will get to building temporary stands (8' tall) to mount the back 7.1 QS8's.

Looks:
Both my wife and neighbor (lady), independently gushed over how good the speakers looked. I was pleasantly surprised. :o) To be honest, I was second guessing my Mansfield Beech choice and wondering if black might have been better. I am sure that because every one else loves them, I will too, after getting over my 'gotta make perfect choice' issues. \:D
Side note: boy did the boxes look super dirty and beaten up. I thought Fed Ex is awfully rough on packages! Then I guessed this was likely a second (or more?) trip for the packaging. I did order FO, so no problems from me if packaging is reused (I would if it was my business to keep costs down.)

Condition: Is very good. In looking VERY closely I could see at a few of the vinyl edges there were some imperfections. These are not noticeable from 1 foot away. I am very pleased with their fit and finish. One of the M80 grills has a strange 1" wide curving line running down the center of the black speaker cloth. Imagine a (humongous) snail trail down the center of the grill. Weird, but I know Brent will send along another M80 grill when I get around to contacting him, so no worries there.

EDIT: Relaxing now... here mr beer

Last edited by davekro; 04/08/09 12:42 AM.

Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."
Re: My replies
davekro #255943 04/08/09 01:01 AM
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One thing to consider, by having the speakers right next to each other this will affect their sound, mostly in the low frequencies. For example, bass can be changed or reinforced by what is around the speaker, like walls or other speakers.

I guess what I'm saying is that the speakers won't sound the same as soon as you move the other speaker out of the way, or change the position of the speaker in relation to the walls around it, this may account for why the the bass sounds different between the two.

Also, I have never heard of Virtual mode, I use "Stereo" or "Direct" modes when listening to music.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: My replies
davekro #255946 04/08/09 01:24 AM
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Dave, I've quickly gone over your new posts and just a couple quick comments. Yes, Dean(crunch)has indicated his preference for a vertical center speaker and during the seven years I've been here I've pointed out their advantages numerous times.

Your difficulty with finding a mode for using the sub with the mains in 2-channel play shouldn't be, since the regular stereo mode(not direct)sends signals to the sub below the crossover set when the mains are set "small".

As far as making poorly recorded material sound less offensive, I found in the past that reducing the upper midrange/lower treble area around 3-6KHz(on a receiver with variable crossovers)helped somewhat. On your 1909, using the manual equalizer to drop that area a bit might help on some recordings. Since bad recordings sound worse the louder the playing level, the best cure may be to listen to them with the sound level set to about 30dB(assuming that your listening room noise floor is higher than that).


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: My replies
SirQuack #255947 04/08/09 01:28 AM
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Man, that would have been SO MUCH easier to understand with pictures.

\:\)

Thanks, Dave. Nice job. +1 on Randy's comments about boundary effects, and about just finding the "Stereo" mode.

Cheers!


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Re: My replies
SirQuack #256001 04/08/09 03:48 PM
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 Originally Posted By: sirquack
One thing to consider, by having the speakers right next to each other this will affect their sound, mostly in the low frequencies. For example, bass can be changed or reinforced by what is around the speaker, like walls or other speakers.

I guess what I'm saying is that the speakers won't sound the same as soon as you move the other speaker out of the way, or change the position of the speaker in relation to the walls around it, this may account for why the the bass sounds different between the two.

Also, I have never heard of Virtual mode, I use "Stereo" or "Direct" modes when listening to music.


We did swap their orientation, but they were always 1" apart. Good point Randy. Soon I will move completely away, the speaker not in use, for a better representation of how each will sound on their own. I will do this after mounting the back QS8's on their temp. stands AND running Audyssey. Though for stereo testing Audyssey is not in play (correct?).

After our 2 ch Direct testing, we wanted to hear them with the sub included (no surrounds) for music. Turning the mode selection knob, I came across "CD Virtual". This is the only mode (1909) that showed the two fronts + sub in the right side of the display as being output (left showed 2 ch input). My neighbor, Tim, a drummer, thought the base was no where near the level he likes, or that you'd here at a live performance. It was certainly not nearly as pronounced as the LFE with movies. I just assumed it produced what it was fed. I maxed the Sub level from -3.0 to +12.0. Then even changed the crossovers from 80Hz to 100Hz, thinking the subs would handle more and produce more. He still thought base was lacking. We then tried Rock and Jazz modes. He preferred Jazz to Rock modes. We had been listening at about 82-85dB continuous (-20 vol. level). After he left, I reset to 80Hz xover, -3.0 sub level. When I cranked it louder to about 95dB (≈ -13 vol.), the bass drums were more pronounced. It sounded good to me. I'll get him back to hear at 95dB. (Audyssey was OFF for all 2 and 2.1 stereo listening)


Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."
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