Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Sub level- adjust at sub vs let Denon/Audyssey1909

I have been wanting more bass from musical selections. I was using Dire Straits, MTV demoing surrounds and my drummer neighbor said he liked more bass than my set up/ adjustments was putting out. I have plenty of sub power (Paradigm Servo 15a and two KLH 10" just as filler). I have always just left the sub level wherever Audyssey sets it, usually =/- 3dB from zero. Sometimes I would bump it up 2-3dB from the Audyssey setting. My Servo15's volume knob had always been set at about 11 O'clock, with the KLH's set about the same, but a bit lower, more to sound so they would not compete with the 15" with their less than smooth at loud levels.

So today, my drummer buddy who has the exact same Servo 15, has his sub vol knob set higher at about 2 O'clock. His smaller room with his 130w x 5 Yamaha and one Servo 15 sounded much better on the bass than my set up. We came back here and turned my sub knob to 3 O'clock, then also raised the trim in the Denon 1909 about 3 dB from the prev, Aud. setting of -3dB. It sounded good. He liked it and I liked it.

Assuming I will wanting to run the sub hotter than the Audyssey setting, the question for you guys is whether there is any sound quality difference between:

1) Increasing the subs trim at the sub, then when Audyysey sees it hot, it compensates by lowering the subs trim to say -7 in the 1909. I then manually bump the 1909 setting to say zero, or +3,or whatever to get what sounds good.

2) Leave the subs vol. knob at straight up at 12 O'clock, or what ever setting that yields an Audyssey zero +/- 3dB. then bump up the sub in the 1909 somewhere in close to the maxximum 12 setting?

Is the SQ absolutely no difference between increasing the trim at the sub before running Audyssey, or raising the 1909's setting more because it was not done at the sub before AUd. was run.
I'm repeating my self now. I'll stop.
1)

There is no difference between having the gain on the sub low and the receiver higher, or having the sub higher and the receiver lower. The point is that you want to level match all the speakers AND sub to the same SPL. Many don't use the auto setups in receivers and use a Radio Shack SPL meter to level match all the speakers and sub.

Some people like running their subs hot, some do not. There is NO room that is the same, so the settings that work for your drummer friend would not apply to your room.

Audyssey also level matches the speakers and sub. I am not sure if its goal is the exact same SPL (for ex. 75dB). Part of your issues may have to do with where your subs are placed in the room. Again, every room is different, so corner or midwall locations in one house may not work in another house.

It is personal preference on if you like to run your subs hot or not. If it sounds good, that is all that matters.

I have 3 subs, currently I calibrate them one at a time to 75dB, then once they are all turned on, they are around 80dBs, about 5dB higher than the speakers.

I see more subs in your future.

I think you are a good candidate for REW. It is entirely possible that you have some peaks/nulls in your room that are affecting the way you perceive the bass. It is very hard to say how good a job Audyssey is doing on leveling out your bass without measuring.

Fred,

Do you concur with Randy (A risky proposition all in itself ), that it makes no difference where the sub level is adjusted from (sub vs. 1909)?

Randy you lucky son of a gun... it's on order! When do you expect it?

no word yet, haven't received the tracking# yet.

Dave, the only possible problem would be if the sub output on a receiver distorted when set near its maximum. Have no idea if this might be a problem with the 1909. In general, however, it's suggested that neither the level control on the sub nor the sub trim level on the receiver be at its maximum or minimum setting.

I concur with Fred, I think you NEED multiple subs Dave. Your room is VERY large and you are just having a hard time filling it up with low frequencies. I also suspect you would be greatly benefited from a much more powerful amp after my A1400 experience, but I know that isn't possible.......yet

Dave. As usual, Johnk covered it better than I ever could.

Get ready, Dave and REW equals 10,000 post in 48 hrs. I would recommend getting happy with the system by the seat of your pants for a few months, before opening the REW can of worms. In fact, I would say the same about Audyss. You can't know if it helps if you don't know how it sounds without it. REW can make you feel that your system is not as good as you thought - even though the sound does not change. I like it, it gave me a visual of some of the sound issues i could not pin-point. It caused me to move my towers around, which did help on imaging. But a flat graph is not perfect, so it does cause even more questions than answers. Be forewarned!

Very sage advice from someone so young. I listened and did basic adjustments (level matching) in the first few months.

This is amusing! I don't think either Peter or I (the only posters >10000 posts) have ever used REW.

Couple points to add to this discussion....

Changing the trim on the sub or the AVR will not alter what Audyssey has done unless you are using Dynamic EQ/Dynamic Volume. Both of these depend on the speakers being calibrated to 75 db.

Second, what your drummer friend may be used to hearing is a bloated midrange (think Honda Civic boom-booming up the street). What you get with Audyssey is a flat response. This is something most folks are not used to hearing. Think of your experience at a better movie theater and compare what you hear at home with that.

Jay, Fred.
How many more than the 3 subs I have would you think I need?

Jay, I am tetering on upgrading my AVR from the 1909 between 3808, 3310 and 4310. Mind you one of the new models would be a bigger stretch to the budget than a $1,000 +/- 3808 would be! Just waiting for the complete new Denon model specs to be announced so I can make an informed decision of value to features choice. Or did you mean a huge A1400 increase in power? If so, you are right, I will continue in the sub A1400 shadows, probably for the rest of my days. I can't understand the usefulness of comparing a high end $3800 A1400 amp to sub $1100-$1500 AVRs? To me, that's like telling someone shopping for a new Corvette, that they really need to try a Ferrari! Now I was at a party this afternoon, where the host happened to have a Ferrari in his garage. Maybe this logic would fit his situation. Actually it probably would, considering his Maserati was parked right next to the Ferrari! (an exec at my wife's company, not someone I rub elbows with in day to day life mind you. )

Dave,
I went to my friends house to hear the base in his system (he has one Servo 15a sub in a smaller room. Sure the room was a factor, and him having it near a corner too. But after coming back and raising my subs level, I did like the difference. I now feel free to adjust the sub level to my taste depending on the source material. As has been said many times here, what sounds best to you, is what ids right. I often enjoy prominent base as long as it blends well with the rest of the material. I am now understanding that I do not need to accept Audyssey's setting's as gospel. I feel it does an outstaning job of equalizing the sound to my particular room, but that adjusting to personal taste is acceptable... duh. Like I have said many times, I may be slow, but...

Dave, regarding the new models, I suppose that you've read the info that Matt from Denon has provided at the RC forum .

Unfortunately Dave, I am suggesting an amp of the same power range of the A1400, but as we have been mentioning there are some less costly alternatives. Luc, seems to be liking his Behringer and many others have the Crown XTI1000, much cheaper options to drive the M80s.

And I would also be looking at upgrading the other 2 subs to the same quality of the Paradigm. If they were able to contribute as much to the system as the Servo does you might find you won't need to run the Servo as high.

Just wondering how you calibrated all 3 subs? Maybe this is where the issue lies.

Each should have been calibrated to the same level as the speakers with the other subs off, then all 3 subs should then be turned on. This would net you 9db(is my math right?) gain. Audyssey isn't set up to handle multiple subs correctly. If the 9db is too much you could set each sub 1 db less than the speakers and achieve 6db gain, etc.

Dave, you mention you have 3 subs. Have you calibrated each of them one by one to 75dB, or whatever db your other speakers are set? Also, are they placed around the room, or all up front?

Process:

Turn all subs off.
Turn sub "one" on, and calibrate it to 75dB's like the other speakers.
Turn sub "one" off, and turn sub "two" on and calibrate it to 75dB.
Turn sub "two" off, and turn sub "three" on and calibrate it to 75dB.
Then turn all subs on which will give you about a 5dB gain over the speakers, but that is what sounds great to me, and recommended in Ian's video.

For distance (delay) you have to average the distance of all your subs, it is best to try to space them equal distance from you, but that may be difficult, so just average their distances.

Then, run Audyssey.

Then, ignore Audyssey.

Just a note, Audyssey on my Denon 3608 sets my sub so low it's very, very close to inaudible. That's just one of the reasons I have never used it except for initial experimentation. For me it seems to make my already square room even more blah sounding, to put it scientifically.

Note to my Note: It could possibly be I have a faulty microphone as well. I have to crank the sub to crazy levels so Audyssey will get past the speaker identification phase. Otherwise it stops dead and says it can't find all the speakers I've told it I have.

Is your firmware upgradable on your 3608, have you followed the Audyssey "setup" guide posted on AVSforum? Others have expressed similar issues and found they were not positioning the mic correctly.

Thanks,
I checked for updates at the time and was current. There may be more now but it is not a big concern for me. I could definitely use some bass tweaking for sure but am otherwise happy with my sound with just db levels calibrated manually.

The mike was screwed into a tripod, ear height on the center of the couch where I sit. Slightly above the backrest so open on all sides. Pretty much where it needs to be, I think, and the mounting hole on the bottom pretty much dictates correct orientation.

Well Dave, I know it is crazy but the audyssey works on sound waves, it does not mean it is right or wrong. It is about the distance. So your ear or a spl meter might be a better judge, but the audyssey is great for distance for your speakers. Maybe move one of your subs in the room at a time to see if any changes.

I'm not sure he should be doing that. There have been some discussions on AVSforum and diyAudio recently of the Geddes approach to subs, which is (roughly, in my crude paraphrase) to even out bass response using a variety of sub types, placement, and volume-phase adjustments. Essentially, you place the subs and adjust them in whatever way works best.

Been there, done that, did that.

Why should he not do that, it is a proven method that has been around a lot longer, and has a lot more followers than the GedLee approach.

My results following Toole and Welti's approach, as well as Ian, Jakeman, Craigsub, etc. have brought about much flatter response then the GedLee method, and they are much easier to accomplish.

ps: i forgot to mention bass traps and frz's in the equation are a must.

SMS-1 graph with 'NO' eq added after following the methods I described above with my ep600 and twin ep350v3's.

John, Thanks for the reminder. I forgot about that great resource. Matt is great!

Jay, yes the two smaller subs don't really count as real subs. second used Servo 15 for $350 would be nice.

What I've done until now... I leave all on when Audyssey runs.

So the way you suggest. After running Audyssey (I just did with my new back brackets holding the back speakers mid ceiling), I turn off subs 2 & 3. Go into manual test tones to listen to each speaker. I'd use the subs volume knob to adjust the sub to match the SPL of the other speakers with the RS meter. Then repeat with #2 & #3. Is that correct? Then as now, I can still adjust the sub level on the fly with the Denon remote, correct?
Thanks, Dave

Ken, no worries, I won't be going down the REW path.

Coward!

Randy, I should have read on a bit. You and Jay are saying pretty much the same. I did not know you'd 'then' run Audyssey after that. Previously, I have had the two 'lesser' subs adjusted to just below where they distort. Then run Audyssey pos.#1 for the sub check to get it around =/- 3dB, then run Audyssey. I wonder if this has a similar effect, except making sure the two lower end subs don't go into clipping or port chortle(tech term ;o). I actually took apart one KLH and checked all screws for tightness, thinking something was vibrating inside. No change. Turns out the port (though glued in solid, was creating an awefull noise. So I just turned them down a bit in elation to the Servo 15. Pretty much, when in a bass heavy seection, if they'd distort/chortle, I turned down the kn ob until this was eliminated. That is why I have always felt the two KLH's are just sort of filler LFE, not being asked to perform to the SPL that the Servo15 does.

I did not realize others have felt Audyssey sets the sub level too low. Does just manually bumping the sub trim up from the remote on the fly not reproduce bass as well because Aydyssey did not set it there?

Greg & Randy,

I will try the individual sub adjustment that so many recommend. But I wonder if that will ask the two KLH 10" 120watt subs to try to make the same volume as the Paradigm Servo 15. If that is the case they may distort when when heavy LFE demands are made. This case of using subs of such hugely different capacity may cause a problem in having the KLH's t6rying to produce the same peak SPLs as the Paradigm is capable of. I certainly will not tone down the Servo15 to the level the 120w subs can handle.

So would you expect with SPL matching that the cheaper subs may distort, thus causing me to turn there gain knob down anyway. Do you think with the diff, SQ subs I should still match their SPLs to the other speakers?

Simple way top find out for sure, try them out and see if they distort/chuff etc. If they do then turn them down and if you feel they are not adding anything get rid of them and buy a second good sub.

Dave, if your subs are calibrated to 75dB's like the other speakers, and not adjusted to be to "hot" as many set their subs, you should be fine. The combined amount will be about 5-6 dBs higher in what we can hear. Keep in mind the RS meter is not as accurate below 50hz.

Here is Ian's video on setting up Multiple Subs

But apparently rather expensive. The least of your subs costs about twice what all 3 of mine cost. Geddes bills his approach as an economical way to achieve even bass response.

The fact Sirquack spent more money than you has nothing to do with it. From what I can make of the GedLee study, he randomly located the 4 subs in his room with no corner loading and took some readings, big deal, it is well known to keep your subs out of the corners for best response and having four in the room will even out the frequency response, multiple sub placement basics these days.

The economical part I suspect is in reference to the lack of buying seperate EQing equipment and room treatments, not in that it works better for cheaper subs.

You pay for better overall performance when you are talking about subs and in particular low end extension.

You're mistaken. See for example:
Are three inexpensive subs better than one expensive sub-Dr. Earl Geddes Approach

From Mr. Geddes in the linked thread "In my setup the room is special, its designed to be a listening room and it has extensive LF damping" so the question is will his theory still work in an undamped room as well as his with "extensive LF damping". SO he has spent the equivalent of a good sub on room treatments, how is this cheaper?

He has also chosen 3 subs using different crossover regions with each sub, this sounds like a pretty extensive DIY project or at the very least a lot of research to get the correct subs so they will play nicely together.

I think the majority of us are just looking to plop something down and have it play smooth with very little effort. An hour or so of level adjusting good subs to achieve smooth bass qualifies for plop down smooth bass.

I will and have always ascertained that multiple subs of the same are not necessary but there will most likely be a draw back or two.

I have tried a set up similar to what he is suggesting with out any more expense to my self. I ran my old sub with my PB13 and I couldn't even tell my old sub was turned on, it couldn't compete with the PB13. I did try the PB13 at 40hz and the cross over on my old sub was set to work from 60hz down and my M80s XO set at 60. I could not hear any difference except what I felt was a lack in the mid bass that my old sub was supposed to be producing even though it was level matched, so Mr. Geddes theory isn't as simple or easy or guarranteed to work with 3 subs you pick up cheap, IMO.

I think that the bigger point is that multiple subs DO smooth out your bass response through out the room and that there are multiple ways of adjusting the subs for the smoothest response.

Forgot to bring up the point that he is still running one good sub down low for LFE, 50hz and lower which is the majority of what we hear/feel as bass and then using smaller cheaper subs for the mid bass region much like the Hsu MBM, so in effect still a one sub configuration in my books.

"But apparently rather expensive"??? Who said that?

Dr Toole and Weltis methods at Harmon International don't require expensive subs, it is about balancing out the frequency response in your room by placing them on opposite walls. Dr. Geddes has commented on how similar the two approaches are, I've read the thread.

For me it is about flat, powerful, non-distorted LFE at any levels. You can't get that with mediocre non DSP subs following this plan. Enjoy your GedLee approach.

Those are good points (among others you make). I don't know exactly how Dr. Geddes makes his living, but I get the impression he is a pro at speaker building and room setup. When he says his subs are inexpensive, he seems to be counting up only the costs of materials, because he makes them. They might seem pretty expensive, to me.

And I agree that his methods take more equipment, time, and expertise than I, or many of us, could muster.

I just now said that, in reference to the cost of the three Axiom subs you said you had, and whose response curve you gave in support of your point.

Greg, Sirquack needs those subs just to keep the LFE even and powerfull let alone mid bass etc. He has a HUGE open room not a "listening" room.

It seems to me what Dr. Lee is saying is that it is important to smooth out the response in the 50-150Hz region and relatively unimportant below 50Hz.

If that is the case, then using multiple lower cost subs for the above 50Hz stuff seems to make sense.

The above is exactly what he is saying.

From the thread:

"The one thing about room response at LF that I feel gets missed in these discussions is how the response varies arround the room at LF. At near DC there is NO variation of the response arround the room, it is everywhere the same. As the frequency goes up it gets greater and greater. But a sub operating from 25-50 Hz will se virtually NO spatial variation in either its response at the seating location or its sensitivity to location. Usuing more than one will thus only increase the output, but do little to nothing to smooth the response as there basically is nothing to smooth."

Yes Greg, I assumed you were saying it takes expensive subs to follow the methods I use, that is not the case. I've saved up through the years. Started with a EP350v1, then EP500, then EP600, then added 2 EP350v3's.

Keep in mind, my room is around 8,000 cubic feet. Cheap, wussey subs just can't cut it to preasurize that space.

Fred, the quoted statement appears to be incorrect, at least in part. "Near DC" is one matter, but frequencies such as 25-50Hz, which are subjected to room modes in listening rooms of typical dimensions, are another. For example, in a room with a 20' length dimension, the first mode is at about 28Hz(1130/(2x20) )and certainly varies at different locations within the room, as all modes do. The benefit of placing two subs at mode minimum locations and/or where the mode frequencies are opposite in phase and tend to cancel, would exist down to the lowest mode frequency of the room, although not to "near DC".

No, that's not what I was saying. I was saying that the example you give purporting to show that other methods work better than Geddes' doesn't show that, because your subs are expensive, and Geddes method applies only to inexpensive subs. The response curve you give for your three subs, though interesting in itself, doesn't show anything one way or another about Geddes' theories. Maybe, as you suggest, Geddes is all wet, and Toole's and others' theories work better, but the specific evidence you gave doesn't show that. That's all I was saying.

I never said one method works better, please don't put words in my mouth. Your the one that said "I'm not sure he should be doing that". I was giving Dave ideas on how to manually calibrate his subs, then you jumped in. So one persons ideas rule out others that have been around much longer? I studied and practiced the Geddes method as I like to tweak things to get the best results. Although he makes it sound easy, it is not if you follow Mark's website. Most people do not have the equipment required in an FFT Real Time Analyzer, those cost money and you can't use REW or other free products, they are not the same.

I also never referenced my subs in my statements or said you had to have expensive subs to calibrate them. I was only telling Dave how to calibrate multiple subs manually, prior to running Audyssey. These methods weren't born yesterday, and have been referenced by true AV experts for years and can be used on any subs, no matter the cost.

My graph shows the end result after calibrating each sub individually, and placing them centered on the walls per Welti's Harmon papers. Can I see a graph of your room that has less deviation, less than 10dB?

Below is a "before" graph with just the EP600 and no room treatments, I see a huge improvement to FR by adding the additional subs and a few FRZ's and basstraps. All that was done was calibrate the subs to 75dB's with an spl meter and place them at the midpoint of opposite walls, pretty easy. At least I don't have to put one above the center line like Geddes suggests, or not use treatments like he disregards.

John. I noticed that as well. If you read through the thread at all (its quite interesting after you wade through the troll droppings) he acknowledges that his room has one mode below 50 Hz, but still sticks by his original asertion.

His point is that, compared to the 50-150 range(where there are increasingly more), there are none.

Well, after reading page 5 of this thread, I can see I will stay out of 'sub tech talk'. A guy could get hurt.

After weeks of theorizing about speaker choice, then ordering, waiting, getting and trying many Axioms... I am tired. I need a break to just be a listener/watcher of HT for a bit. When my batteries get recharged, I'' do the individual sub calibration that Randy and Jay outlined. Jay, From your comments, I will try unplugging the Servo 15 to see what the 2 KLH's are actually doing. I never thought of that. Thanks. Then I'll try with just the Servo15. After I do the individual sub calibration, I will repeat the above process, noting differences I hear (or don't ;o).

Thanks to all here for the great ideas. It will likely be a week (or maybe a few days ;o) before I get back into testing mode.

Cheers to all.

Glad I could help Dave. Kick back, grab a cold one and enjoy the Axioms.

And by a cold one, he does not mean a witch's tit.

Dude, your one interesting cat! Why else would I follow you on Twitter.

Randy,
Is it Friday yet? Hang in there! ;o)

It just left IL, heading for IA...awesome..

Randy, watch out! You just summoned apostrophe_bot again.

You better logoff/login then.

Randy,
I imagine you are blissfully busy tonight with the new 3808CI! Congratulations!

So far I am VERY impressed with the new Denon AND Audyssey MultEQ XT WITH Dynamic EQ and Volume. There is a big learning curve with these new remotes, they really suck in my opinion. I think my 2805 remote is so much easier to navigate.

I'm sure I'll get used to the shortcuts at some point.

With Audyssey engaged the overall experience from my surrounds and bass is amazing compared to everything disabled. I think I could even sway Alan if he was hearing what I'm hearing.

Been a long evening, so I'll try to provide more input later. Now back to experimenting with Dynamic EQ/Volume. I'm trying to decide if I like Day, Evening, or Midnight modes the best for watching movies late at night when the kids are sleeping...hmmm

Also, Stereo music mode just comes alive. The Axioms with nothing engaged sound fabulous, but with Audyssey enabled, well it is hard to describe. It just sounds more spacious and detailed. It in no way makes the Axioms sound worse.

I need to get some additional cables for using with my projector. Right now I have to change to component to see the GUI, and HDMI for cruising the forums using my HTPC. I need to get another HDMI cable and I'll be set...

By for now...

I'm glad you're liking it. I'm going to be torn with my next receiver/processor purchase. I'm interested in Trinnov, but Dynamic EQ/Volume sound interesting, too.

I tried to find as much information about Trinnov as well, it had my curiousity. There is an audioholics interview on youtube, but that is about it... I'm sure it will be fine, only time will tell..

Yeah, the good news is that I'm not in a major rush to replace what I have, so I can wait for user opinions and professional reviews. Here's hoping it lives up to the promise.

Randy, your initial findings with Audyssey was how I described it as well, it is also about the same difference I noticed running the A1400 vs the 3808w/Audyssey, only the A1400 was much better at bass, overall feel of the music, hard to describe the differences I heard. I will say that I liked the A1400 by itself rather than with Audyssey through the 3808, at least for 2 channel listening.

I have to think the 3808 is about to get real cheap once the new models come out. I may have to join the group. Randy, do you think the 3808 is putting out a cleaner signal to your amps, as compared to the 2XXX?

Have not tried my amps with the 3808 yet, the 3808 sounds great. With my 2805 there was minimal difference at low to moderate levels. Where you noticed the amps was when you cranked things up, in my opinion.

One thing that is frustrating, and maybe it is just me, but on my 2805 remote I could cycle through music/cinema/games mode when set to Dolby PLIIx mode. Seems to be a little difficult figuring this out on the 3808, so far I have to go into the GUI to change it manually, which sucks.

Also, I need to get a HDMI cable to go from my HTPC video card to the Denon as I only have one to the projector. I'm currently using Component out on the Denon to my projector...

Randy,
Congratulations again. As you know, I'll be staying tuned to your thoughts and feelings with the new 3808. Do us a favor and do some critical as well as loud listening thru just the 3808 so you can contrast it to with your amps. Note: JohnK, ignore the next two sentences! Your test might not reveal this, but I am curious of reports some make of better SQ with jumping from even modest AVRs (1909) to the 2809 and 3808. I'm asking similar to Charles question, do you perceive any SQ improvement over your 2805?

I will say with my limited music listening at this point (been focusing on Audyssey ) that I do think there is something different (in a positive way) on how the 3808ci alone sounds compared to my 2805.. I don't know if it is the DACS, the beefier amp section with 7 isolated channels, or what...

The first CD I played was Rush Moving Pictures. This was after I calibrated everything to 75dB's, like my 2805. In addition I was using Stereo mode with all speakers to small and 80hz crossover at the time. At this point I had not enabled Audyssey yet (that is a different positive story).

With the 2805 and the old Sony CD player, I always thought some of my CD's sounded a little thin, without much bass bunch, and to much in the high frequencies. With the 3808ci I immediately noticed some differences. Explaining them is difficult. I don't think it was my brain, as it had not broken in yet. The bass seemed tighter with more impact, and the higher frequencies seemed more crisp.

I don't know, maybe it was just wishful thinking, or my brain playing tricks on me. I don't really have a way to do a true AB blind test, and not sure I'm going to worry about it...

Don't worry about it. I know I wouldn't in your position! Enjoy the new purchase. You know me, Mr. analysis paralysis just digging for more (perceived )info.

The price point aside, how does the Denon 3808ci compare to an Onkyo tx-nr906.