Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater M22 or M60....?

Hello there guys. I'm trying to decide between a speaker set up of either Axiom M22 with a Hsu VTF-2/STF-2 sub or M60's with a VTF-2/STF-2 sub. My room is slightly above average size ( neither small or particularily large ) so it seems my room would work with both arrangements. The question is which? My research has lead me in both directions...


1) I've read some say that a better low cost high fidelity system can be had by combining a good sub with good bookshelf speakers. The reasoning is that a towers upper and mid range can often be compromised by resonances from the lower range woofer: as well, amplifier demands, to produce the lower range output, have their own compromises. By separating the highs/mid from the lows with a separately driven sub you can optimize both and often for less money.

2) I've also read some say towers are better since even though they don't have the full lower range as a sub they have a better lower range than the bookshelf and drop off at a lower freq. Resulting they blend better with a sub and you don't loose any part of the freq range like you could with a bookshelf.

3) I've compared the speaker measurements of the axiom speakers here:

Speaker measurements:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/speakermeasurements/

Even though the M60's aren't given, the M40 and M80 are, and since both are similar I'd infer the M60's are also.

Looking at the measurements it appears the M2, and M22 have the best linear response and dispersion from about 100hz->20Khz over the M40/M80's.

Does this mean the M2 and M22 will be better in the Mid and Highs and sound better in this range?

However, the M40/M80 go down further than 100hz so would they blend better with the sub? Would I be loosing any of the frequency range using the M22's?

Is the extra money for the M60's worth it...?

Thanks for the help, Jane
P.S. It's in my nature to analyze everything to death so my apologies for the long post. I just didn't know how to express it in a shorter fashion

Before discovering this forum I was deciding between booksheles and towers without planning to get a sub. I bought a pair of M50s and we enjoyed them so much we ordered a set of outlet M22s for the bedroom. We are still greatly enjoying both without subs. No one I have heard has said that anything is given up by having M60s or M80s instead of the M22s. My guess is that since you tend to analyze everything so much you will always wonder what you might be missing, more so if you have only the M22s. So here is my thought: Get the M60's, if you still keep wondering about the M22's, look at putting together a stereo system for another room inexpensively with outlet 22s and some used equipment.

While I'm sure a sub would improve what I have, even the M22s are better alone than most stereo people listened to for decades.

Wow, Jane, you really do your homework. Welcome.

Craig (spiffnme) will be along shortly to answer your question

This is an ongoing, age-old debate on this board. You can't lose either way, especially if you are willing to get one of the subs you mentioned. I chose the M60 for a few selfish, non-scientific reasons.

1. I've always wanted a quality, 3-way tower speaker. They just generally sound fuller, richer, taller, and wider *to me* than small speakers of similar quality.
2. I dislike the look and functionality of speaker stands
3. I knew that ultimately, what I'd rather have is the towers and the sub. This way, I can have the towers now, get the sub later and enjoy myself in the mean time.

I'm not sure you're going to get many nibbles that say the M22+sub is "better" than the M60+sub without price as a factor. Although 2x6spds is probably lurking around here somewhere....

You'd be delighted with either approach. If cost is not an factor, you may be slightly more delighted with the fullness and soundstage of the M60's.

usually one night a week, i'm the only one home, so i get to enjoy 2 channel stereo loudly. i have two 60's in a 16x12 room, and i know i would be disappointed with the 22's. as suggested here, i have the 60's set to small, and let the sub crank out the bass. get the 60's is what i would tell you. see if the color you want is in the outlet for less $$.
dan

tomtuttle,

2x6spds would never say that the M22+sub is better than the M60+sub. What he might say instead is that his "M22-like Michaura M55s+sub" are better than M60s alone.

Hi Jane and welcome,

From one "analyzer" to another:
I originally bought the M22s, VP150, QS8s and HSU VTF-2. While I was amazed at the output of the M22s and felt that the sub blended beautifully with them in my 13 x 22 livingroom, I felt something was lacking...Sent the M22s back and ordered the M60s - have them set to SMALL with a crossover at 80. I rarely use the sub for stereo listening as I find the bass to be more than enough. Use the sub for movies. I am extremely happy with my setup. I find the M60s to be the equivalent of the M22s with more bass and more power.

Just another opinion.

Mark

Sorry it too me so long to reply.

In response to your first point, yes, many tower speakers do indeed suffer in the midrange. Not the M60ti. It's clean and clear from top to bottom.

Point #2...With a good sub, both bookshelf and tower speakers can blend very well.

Point #3 - I don't even look at specs. I let me ears do the research. You'll not find a better tower speaker than the M60ti at a price any where near it's cost. (Assuming you like clear, detailed sound)

There are a few things that need to be determined before choosing between the M22ti and the M60ti.

1) How large is your room? (Actual measurements)
2) How far back will you be sitting from the speakers?
3) How much can you spend?

If you're room isn't small, and you'll be sitting at least 10' back from the speakers, and you're willing to spend the extra money, I HIGHLY recommend the M60ti's.

However if you do have a smallish room, and will be sitting closer than 10', you cannot go wrong with the M22ti. (at any price)

Either speaker will want a good subwoofer. (You're looking in the right place with Hsu) The M60ti can get away with music without a sub, but for movies you'll still want one. The M22ti will want a sub for both.

Let us know how things turn out.

Thank you all for the input this has been extremely helpful.

Yes spiffme I’d agree that listening would be the true test, its just I’m trying to give myself the best possible chance of making the right choice for me so that I don’t have to end up sending a pair of speakers back…Having looked at a number of other speaker measurements of well respected speakers its seems that a perfect linear range isn’t the “whole” picture. Also the on-axis response in both is pretty linear. They really only diverge when off-axis and I’d bet this would be particularly variable once in a real room.

1) I have noticed that Axiom and a few others quote the frequency response with a deviation of for example +/- 3 db. From the speaker measurements it looks like even though the M40’s, and M80’s “bounce” around at more points in this range ( +/- 3 db ) compared to the M22’s they all stay within this range.

- So the question then is what is audible? If you can’t hear 3 db’s then there would effectively be no difference between them…..Or is 3 db’s audible. If so by how much?



2) So to the point spiffme from what you’re saying then given all things equal and optimized for each set up (ie: speaker placement, optimum room size, listening position, ect. and cost difference not a concern) the M60 + sub combination would be the better performer and well worth the extra $400.00?


Thanks very much, Jane.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I had the same question. To answer your questions:
1) How large is your room? (Actual measurements)
31 feet long (with a staircase going upstairs at the end), 13.5 feet wide, 7 foot ceilings.

2) How far back will you be sitting from the speakers?
From the front of the center to the couch is about 16 feet.

3) How much can you spend?
I'll probably buy pieces one at a time since shipping is free. Really not a big factor, as I don't want to skimp on speakers.

The only reason I was considering the m22ti is so I could get 3 of them for the front sound stage. However, I use a large screen for a projector so the center really can't be at the same height as the fronts anyways.

Does anyone is central Ohio have an Axiom system they can demo. I did look around the forum but didn't see any listed for Ohio.

Hi Jane,

Well, analyzing is my life! Anyway, Spiff was quicker to respond and has said virtually everything I might have told you. However, I might point out the fact that the actual enclosure and the M22ti's front baffle is small and narrow tends to work more in its favor in modest-sized rooms (again this relates to listening distance and your setup) in that it's sometimes easier to make small compact speakers "disappear" as the sources of sound. So you can get a more 3-dimensional soundstage than you can from floorstanding towers in a smaller room (I can use any Axiom speaker I want). So in my modest living room, I use the M22s with a sub. The M80s are overwhelming in my room, and although I don't have the M60s here at the moment, I suspect I'd have more difficulty--in MY room--getting that soundstage I get from the M22s.

But like Tom says, the M60s do have a fuller, "bigger" sound than the M22s, with the same lovely midrange and upper octave detail and clarity.

Regards,

Brianp - in a room your size, sitting that far back, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to get the M60ti's.

Jane - room size and how far you're going to sit away from them is critical for choosing between the M22 and M60.

Like Alan said, in a smallish room, the M22ti will be the better choice, but in a larger room like Brianp has, the M60ti would easily the better performer.

My room is medium/large (I sit about 13' back and there's an additional 13'+/- behind me) and there was a considerable difference in performace between the M22 and M60. The M22's had to try too hard to fill that size room. Likewise, if I put my M60's into our game room, they'd suffer because the room is too small.

Alan, may I ask how you're blending your M22's with a sub in your living room setup?
Are you matching your sub to the natural "rolloff" of the M22's or using a crossover in a receiver to set a crossover point?
Also, wouldn't the choice between M22 vs M60 also depend on what kind of receiver Jane plans to use? If she's using a traditional stereo receiver without a built in crossover for the sub (thus no option for setting the speakers to "small), wouldn't it be easier to blend M22 with a sub (at a somewhat higher frequency 60 - 80 Hz) than with M60's which go much lower?

I'm a sat/sub person myself. I just prefer it like that usually, but if you have no price limitations a floorstanding/sub combination would be great. Even though they can go much lower, I'd suggest a crossover of 60-80 Hz (I'd personally do 80.) That should let it blend well with the sub, I'd think, but experimentation is key.

Thanks Allen and Spiffme!

I have decided to go with the M60’s which should be more suitable for my room. Thanks to all for the constructive advice.

Could you educate me a bit.

I am wondering why is it that the M60 is able to output more SPL in the mid and high range ( compared to the M22 ) when both the M22 and M60 have the same type and number of tweeter and mid drivers? My impression was the woofers on the M60 aren’t producing anything but perhaps a bit of overlap in the lower mid range...

Much appreciated Jane.

That sounds like an Ian or Alan question, but it could be because the woofers are taking over some of the duties of the mid/woofers, thereby allowing them to play louder on the mid frequencies. (?) Then again, maybe I'm just making this up. :-)