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Looking for a 5.1 system (speakers + receiver)
#263007 06/09/09 02:07 PM
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I've had my eye on the Epic 80-500 5.1 system for some time now. I am planning on using the system for probably 70/30, movies/music in a pretty small room, probably around 1800 cubic feet (but I will be moving into a new place with most likely a larger room within half a year so I need the system to be future proof).

I noticed a lot of people suggest getting the M22 v2 for mains if you're primarily watching movies which seems like what I will be doing.

My primary concerns are 1) how the EP500 sub stacks up against the less expensive EP350 v3 (especially in a smaller room), 2) if the VP150 v2 will be able to keep up with the M80's upfront or if I should spring for something like a horizontally placed M22 as a center channel and finally, 3) what receiver (and possible amp combination) should I use to properly power this set up.

As far as the receiver goes I've heard that a lot of people like the way Denon, and particularly the 3808 sounds with Axiom speakers. I wouldn't mind picking up this particular reciever at a discount with Denon's new line coming out now. However, I've also head people suggest that the Onkyo's are generally a better value for the same price, but I'm not sure how they would run 4/6ohm speakers. I've been considering adding a 2 channel amplifier to run the M80's and let the reciever handle the rest of the speakers (possible upgrading the system to 7.1 later on) but I'm not sure if it will be necessary in my small room.

Thnx for any help.

Re: Looking for a 5.1 system (speakers + receiver)
Escaron #263021 06/09/09 03:29 PM
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HI Escaron Welcome. Sounds like exiting times ahead.

While I might ponder a bit the statement regarding M22s being primarily for movies, I think they would make an excellent choice from all that I have read. I myself own M60s and find them simply astounding. The M22's are described as being more akin to the M80s (the M60's big brother) but don't play quiet as loud (and by loud, be aware that both can go louder than you can safely listen to.) and perhaps not quiet as deep as the big M80s as they are, of course, a smaller design. They are highly regarded for accurate clarity for movies but also for music. perhaps even more praised by music lovers as movie buffs like to take more comfort (if even at a subconscious level) of a big speaker.

Because you are choosing a package with an Extremely capable sub (My EP500 is one of my favorite possessions) and you have described a relatively small room, I think the M22s would be an excellent choice.

If you want to future proof for a much larger than normal room in the future, M80s will also sound incredible and you won't later wonder if your new room size is a factor. down the road.


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Re: Looking for a 5.1 system (speakers + receiver)
Murph #263023 06/09/09 03:41 PM
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Also, most people on this board will tell you that any quality digital receiver will convert sound so accurately within volume levels that are within it's spec and that any differences in sound or quality are inaudible. There are some who disagree. Those who disagree, often tend to invest in very expensive units to gain what are noticeable improvements to their ears.

never having participated in any properly set up listening tests for receivers, I can't discount either side but the technical arguments made by Camp A. tend to make the most sense to my level of electrical understanding.

My advice to people is usually that their first receiver purchase should be based on making sure you get all the features that you need. Experimentation with this type of gear can be expensive so start with what will meet your immediate needs from a technical setup and possible future needs. Then just listen and enjoy. After everything is tweaked the way you want it and you still feel the need for more, then you can always experiment down the road as time and money permits. My guess is, after you hear the Axiom speakers (Even camp #2 agree that it is the speakers that make the largest difference in sound quality, not the electronics.) you will be completely satisfied.

All that being said, Denon's are highly regarded for their feature set, tend to be conservative in their ratings so you are getting what they promise and maybe more, and have a solid build quality from a trouble perspective. I own a Denon 3608 and am very happy with it.

Edit:
Hope I didn't get any sandwich on ya. I'm babbling on here while I eat lunch.

Last edited by Murph; 06/09/09 03:42 PM.

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Re: Looking for a 5.1 system (speakers + receiver)
Murph #263028 06/09/09 04:02 PM
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Escaron, welcome.

The Epic 80-500 5.1 would be a wonderful and basically future-proof choice. In a small room with a good sub (like the EP500), the M22's would also be amazing. However, in a larger room, you will not be able to attain the same SPL as you would with a larger speaker like the M80.

I would not consider a horizontal M22; it is not designed for that placement/orientation. The VP150 is Axiom's flagship center channel speaker. It will match fine with either the M22 or M80.

People seem to really like the EP350v3. But if you are looking to "buy once" since you are moving to a larger space, I would recommend stepping up to the EP500.

If you are looking to spread the purchases out over time, you could consider the Epic M22-500 5.1 now, then move the M22's to the rear and add the M80's when you move to the larger space.

I have an Onkyo TX-SR805 and think it is a fine piece of equipment. That being said, I am using M60's and the M80's are a somewhat more demanding load. There seems to be universal love for the Denon 3808CI; if you can afford it, I doubt you would either have any regrets or feel like you need an external amp.

I do not know how people feel about the 3808 remote control. My best AV purchase ever - by far - was a URC MX-700 remote. It is now discontinued, but has been replaced by the MX-850. You can get one for about $200 by calling http://www.surfremotecontrol.com/. Some people like the Harmony series, some people don't have other family members that need to operate the system. I don't know that my family could survive without the MX-700. Just a thought for your budgeting.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: Looking for a 5.1 system (speakers + receiver)
Murph #263030 06/09/09 04:06 PM
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What he said. But in terms of a small room, take note of the size of M80s. You can always move M22 to a rear position or second zone in a bigger house, but you can't hide towers. I like big towers - and that is all I mean by that! - but you have to be willing to accept a certain aesthetic motif to put them in a small room. My HT is not called the "Man Cave" for nothing.


Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire
Re: Looking for a 5.1 system (speakers + receiver)
Escaron #263031 06/09/09 04:06 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Escaron


My primary concerns are 1) how the EP500 sub stacks up against the less expensive EP350 v3 (especially in a smaller room), 2) if the VP150 v2 will be able to keep up with the M80's upfront or if I should spring for something like a horizontally placed M22 as a center channel and finally, 3) what receiver (and possible amp combination) should I use to properly power this set up.



1) I have a 350 in a large room and find the sound great but miss some of the pressure and really deep movie bass that I've felt/heard from some of the various flagship subs (EP600/800, PB13 Ultra, etc). Mind you, it was wayyyy cheaper.

2) I don't think placing a vertically designed M22 horizontally would be much of an improvement on the VP150. I would advise using a vertical speaker (I use an M60) if layout permits, otherwise I'd just stick with the specially designed center channel.

3) I now use the 3808, but have not noticed any difference in sound from the Sherwood Newcastle I was using. Receivers can, generally speaking, be bought based on features vs price. The new Onkyos are unlikely to have any problems driving 4 ohm M80s, I think most of their problems were limited to models from two years ago. They do tend to run pretty hot, however. If you are moving to a larger room, or are, like me, open to the idea of future experimentation with outboard amplification, just make sure you get one with pre-outs. Also, some of the lower line Rx still don't do audio over HDMI. Confirm via the owners manual.


M80s/VP160/QS8s/EP350; M22s; M3s.
Re: Looking for a 5.1 system (speakers + receiver)
doormat #263037 06/09/09 04:17 PM
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Thnx for all the quick replies. Couple more questions. How does the EP500 compare to subs from SVS, specifically something like the PC12-Plus or the PC13-Ultra (seems like they're are all relatively close in price). Also, how do people feel about NAD C270/272 amps for use with the M80's if I was to go that route. Seems like they can be bought used for around $400-500. I've never had any experience with separate amps and was wondering how safe would it be buying one used vs new and if it would even make a significant difference over just the Denon alone. The only reason I would consider a separate amp is to take the load off the Denon for driving the 4ohm fronts since it's not really designed for that (as far as I can tell they only mentione 8/6ohm ratings in the manual). I don't want to damage any of my speakers or the reciever itself and it seems safer to pay the extra money for a separate amp for at least 2 channels.

Last edited by Escaron; 06/09/09 04:18 PM.
Re: Looking for a 5.1 system (speakers + receiver)
doormat #263040 06/09/09 04:22 PM
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 Originally Posted By: doormat
[quote=Escaron]

If you are moving to a larger room, or are, like me, open to the idea of future experimentation with outboard amplification, just make sure you get one with pre-outs.

Ditto that. You won't be "missing" anything with a 3808 or Onkyo (or any other AVR in that $1500+ price range). But adding more power is not as expensive as I thought. By sacrificing some fancy box options, and working around a loud fan, I got a pro amp to push over 500watts (when needed) for under $500. I found parts of music I did not know where there (and thus did not miss them) after years of happy listening to my Denon 3300.

On that note, I have an interesting (to me) A/B comparison of the 3300 to the pro amp. My FL and FR are on the QSC GX5, my center is on the Denon 3300, rated at 110w. What I had always perceived as a limit to my PSB towers was a harshness on the high end of male vocals over 98db. Doing some intense listening to the new Dave Matthews Band album in 2 channel, I loved every second and never heard a drop of that sizzle I had always been able to find on DMB vocals, some horns, etc. But when I switched to 5 ch, I could hear that little bit of distortion/error/sizzle again. It was coming from the center channel on the Denon. When the Denon was running all 3 fronts, I heard that from all 3 (or 2 as the case may be), routinely. Now, its gone when the separate amp is in the chain.

So in a quasi-A/B test, I can say the additional power of the separate amp makes a "cleaner" sound than my Denon. Since all amps "sound" the same, I chalk this up to more power and clipping, not better amplification. Important note: my 3300 is now almost a decade old. So this may not apply to the newer Denon amps, but then again, the modest power increases from 110 to 130 should make almost no difference and amp section has not changed much, if at all, from what I have read, since they still use the same processing path and amp design.

Don't spend all these two cents in one place. ;\)


Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire
Re: Looking for a 5.1 system (speakers + receiver)
Zimm #263053 06/09/09 05:01 PM
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Another quick note.
In consideration of your small room, huge power in an amp is not going to be an issue for you at all. In a 15x15x8 foot room (easiest way I could come to 1800 sqr feet. You might be surprised to learn that according to online wattage calculators, to maintain an average of 85db (common sound levels in movie theaters) you will only use about 2 watts nominal.

Of course, there needs to be some room for headroom. For instance, a loud musical burst in classical music could go 10db higher than normal. A movie special effect might hit 15db above normal. To get 15db extra above 85db requires 61 watts. Well within the specs of practically any quality receivers or amp.

Of course, if you like things LOUD, the number jump very quickly. Lets say you have chosen to slowly but surely deafen your friends at a 95db average with 10db spikes. You are now looking at 194 watts required to handle the peaks and this is out of the range of many common receivers and off sounding and potentially damaging clipping could occur depending on how bad it is pushed. Most receivers will shut down before damage is done but it's still not where you want to be.

In short, unless you like it very loud, I think most receivers will do you just fine until you move into a much bigger home.

Note: For reference sake, I used this online wattage calculator and used a distance of 3.5 meters and a sensitivity of 93 to match up with the M22s. Of course there are many other factors as to producing an "exact" calculation but it can serve to give you a rough idea of your own requirements.

Online Wattage Calculator

Last edited by Murph; 06/09/09 05:02 PM. Reason: forgot link

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Re: Looking for a 5.1 system (speakers + receiver)
Murph #263062 06/09/09 05:16 PM
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I'd just like to add that if you can fit the M80's or M60's within your aesthetic demands, they both play very well at low volumes. I have not heard the M80's personally, but I listen to M60's daily with both movies and music, and find the M60's to be very good at low levels. Everyone says that the M80's do a better job on top of that. So just because you don't want to use the M80's to bring down the walls in your current house, doesn't mean they won't still play spectacularly at lower volumes.

That said, the M60's just are awesome when I blast them at high levels, haha.

In terms of receiver, if you are going the Onkyo route with M80s, I would suggest staying at or above the TX-SR7xx level at the least. If you stick with anything below that (M60 or M22), than even the lowliest Onkyo makes serious music.


M60x2, VP150, M22x2
Sennheiser HD-595
Onkyo TX-SR507, PS3 (40gb)
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