Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater M33 V2 As center channel

I have a pair of M33 V2s as my mains and I am looking for a new center channel (Crappy KLH right now). Could I use a third m33 as my center or should I use a vp100 or 150?

Would a vp150 be over kill for m33s?

-Via

What's an M33?

It's an M3 turned up to e-l-e-v-e-n.

An M3 that has been spinal tapped?

Its called a typo

You sure can use a single M3 as your centre channel. Placement can be more difficult since you will want to set it vertical (just like the mains). If you have a small to medium sized room and you can achieve proper placement, this would be a great choice.

You can also use a horizontal centre channel such as VP100 and VP150. Generally the VP100 is used in small to medium sized rooms where your listening position is less than 13ft away. In a large room the VP150 will be the best choice. Saything that you can still use the VP150 in a smaller room. It just depends how much you want to spend. Axioms line up of speakers all have the same general design philosphy so they can be mixed and matched as you please.

Cheers!

This was a one off Axiom did for Larry Bird.

OP has some explaining to do about how he acquired them!


In my opinion, three M3's across the front would be just fine but I don't believe you can buy a single M3.

I would get the VP150 whether you need it or not, then you will never wonder "what if."

However, if you got the M3's you could use the extra as a single rear surround if you only have 5.1.

Axiom sells singles of all it’s speakers, and if Via can fit one it would be the ideal setup of having 3 identical speakers across the front.

Obviously. I wondered if he meant M3 or M22.

He can through the Factory Outlet.

There is an “Add Single Speaker to Cart” option on each speakers page w/o going through the factory outlet.

Good to know... I stand corrected.

lol, I did indeed mean M3. I had just finished flashing my psp with custom firmware however and that firmware is M33......

So now that I know that an M3 will work I just need to make up my mind if that how I want to go. Trying to piece a system together piece by piece is fun but a lot of work, lol.

Decisions, decisions......

If you can fit a third M3 as a center it will be the best possible match to your M3 mains and cost less than the horizontal alternatives. However, remember the M3 is rear ported so if you will have to put it inside a cabinet you might consider a VP100 or VP 150 which are not ported.

V, welcome. It appeared at first that you might have been taking lessons from one of our veteran members, Jay, who's inclined to try out and name combined speakers. Two stacked M3s might be an M33.

Now, although there are many satisfied VP100 and 150 users, my suggestion would be to employ a vertical M3 for wider and smoother horizontal dispersion.

Nope it won't be in a cabinet so it looks like that will probably be the way I go. Which is cool because that leaves me cash to look for surrounds to replace the Bose cubes that got passed down to me I'm using now. Sell those and add the savings from the center and I can get some more axioms!

-via

Sounds like an awesome plan V!

Yeah but why not save 10% while he's at it? The only downfall is having to wait 4 - 6 weeks.

Why not let him and others who may be reading this thread know there is another option to buy a single speaker other than the factory outlet in case they don’t want to wait?

I liked that movie.

Because allowing that information to fall into the hands of the masses eliminates our position atop of the heap, it weakens the foundations of the establishment and we will crumble to the... oh heck I'm just kidding!

What's that quote from, 'V for Vandetta'?

Yes that’s from “V for Vendetta.” normally wouldn’t like such a moody movie but it did must have something to do with Natalie Portman.

As for the information flow I’m just trying to help keep what spreads around internet forums about Axiom that I read real. Once bad or even IMO disinformation gets started it almost never really goes away. I’ve lost track of how many posts say that the M80s don’t have any bass or that Axiom speakers make your ears bleed. Though interestingly most of that crap seemed to stop when a certain set of fanboys quieted down recently.

Very true. I was just reading a post on AudiogoN forums about a problem a guy had with an Emotiva amp and his system. He had an Axiom setup, and so naturally most of the comments directed towards him were, "oh I've always heard Axioms were on the bright side, you should look at getting different speakers", yada yada yada... What on earth are they talking about???

But then again the same forum that was saying the Axioms were bright was also telling him he needed to turn the system up and play it for a while to get everything including the CORDS broken in... ah yes of course, that must have been the problem... the cords just hadn't been run long enough to allow all of that precious bass to flow freely down into the bottom of his M80's.

I must say, as awesome as I feel my system sounds, I simply can't wait until all my cords are completely broken in and I can experience the full bandwidth presentation of the music!!! Yeah right!

Oh hey Grunt, I just now noticed in your system discription it shows that you have 3 M80's.... I'm curious, where does the 3rd M80 fit in?

In my apartment it was my center speaker:



Now it’s mostly sitting off to the side while I’m temporarily using an M22 as the center below the TV until I get off my lazy procrastinating backside and order a projector and screen. Once I get the screen up it will be back in the center role with all 3 M80s below the screen.

I don't know if any of you have seen "Between Two Ferns with Zach Galifianakis", but now when ever someone brings up V for Vendetta his skit with Natalie Portman is the first thing that pops into my head...

In a related note, I have actually found the VP150 to almost be overkill in my specific situation, and if I could do things again I probably would have gone with a VP100 or vertical M22 center (small apartment setup). Although, I do like the fact that I never have to worry about upgrading my center channel.

Very nice.

Ok now I'm really cornfused... if you have an M22 employed to do the center channel duty, what does your VP150 do?

You're not what they call, "orthodox" are you? lol

Right now it’s collecting dust. I’ve experimented with the VP150 as a single rear channel in a 6.1 configuration. It did well but right now I’m using a QS8 back there. I think the M22 blends better with the M80s than the VP150 which is why I’m using the M22 right now until I get the projector and screen going at which time the 3rd M80 will go back to being the center channel.

I will also probably need some sort of amp to help run everything. My receiver could handle 3 x M80s and 4 x QS8s in the apartment but this room is much bigger and my seating distance is almost double so I’ll probably be getting an amp(s) but haven’t figured out what yet.



People do seem to think I take after my avatar.

I don't think I've ever considered any speaker to be 'overkill' until I saw a guy using an M80 as a center channel...


Just kidding! Seriously though, even an M80 would work as long as you adjusted for distance and level correctly in your reciever. You can easily avoid 'overkill' with proper tuning and set-up. Is the dialog coming off a bit too strong for your tastes using the VP150? If so try setting it down a few db's and maybe turn the towers up a few db's. Keep experimenting until you find a happy medium that suits you. Remember there is no 'right or wrong' way to set your system up. There's only what you like and what you don't like.

A lot of people like to have the dialog firmly anchored in the middle of the screen. But myself, I like to spread the sound out to the mains a little more. So I have my center channel set at zero, and the left and right towers dialed up to +3. This gives me the sound I'm looking for. Now a professional audio man might come in, wave his wand around and tell me I'm WAAAAY off, and that I'm not listening to my movies the way they were meant to be listened to... who cares?

If my set-up brings me more enjoyment than the way the sound editor out in Hollywood intended for me to listen to it, then so be it. So detune that VP150 if it's over powering your M60's my man. It's your party, you can cry if you want to!

Micah, Just a note that you have 333 posts making you half-evil.

Back to your regularly-scheduled program.

Not evil, just "balanced".

I have actually found myself moving towards a more stereo output these days, the M60's just seem to do such a stellar job by themselves. And I've been listening to a lot more music them film the last few months. However, I am moving to my new apartment in two weeks (thank god), and will redo the complete set-up. Very excited for this opportunity.

The new media room will be even smaller, though, and I am going to be moving the M22's away from their current surround positions to a Zone 2 position. Which will leave me with the M60s, the VP150, and two surrounds of suspect quality in media room. But I suspect Micah is correct, and that in the new setup I will dial down the center channel just a tad.

Oofff, well let's take care of that right now shall we!

Ok Grunt I have to ask for a thorough discription of your center channel journey, as it seems most interesting.

You said you thought the M22 integrated more naturally than dis the VP150. This would seem to suggest that you prefer a more mild center channel personality. But that isn't exactly the case either since your future plans include moving back to using an M80 for center channel duty.

So can you expand on your impessions of the VP150 & why for you anyhow, it isn't the ideal match for the M80's?

My original Axiom order was 2 x M80s, 1 x VP150 and 2 x QS8s and I was in audio heaven. Then for some reason I ended up running a phantom center one day instantly noticed that the center channel sounded more dynamic and lifelike. I started some detailed listening tests and also noticed there was a noticeable change in the tone of male voices that panned from the VP150 to either of the M80 mains which wasn’t there when I was running a phantom center.

Experimenting more I found that the further I got the VP150 away from the screen the better it’s tone matched with the M80s but never quite as good as a phantom center. A recent post or article by Alan Loft that I now can’t seem to find explains what was going on. Basically that speakers in different positions will always have some tonal differences due to differing placement and what’s near them. However, no adjustments of the placement made the VP150 sound as dynamic as the M80s running in stereo nor should it have since the M80 is flat out a much better speaker.

I surmised and research seems to confirm that having a center speaker that’s identical to your mains will minimize the tonal differences which then get amplified (for lack of a better term) by differing placement. Some even recommend surround speakers be identical to your mains/center for accurate reproduction of 5.0 music. Though I’ve read good arguments that, and found for myself, purpose built multi-polar surround speakers work better.

Now knowing I would eventually want a third M80 as a center once I bought a house and want to upgrade to 7.1 I figured I might as well order the speakers sooner than later as the price was only likely to go up over time. So I made my second Axiom order of 1 x M80, 2 x QS8s and 2 x M22s with the intent of trying both the QS8s and M22s as surround back speakers and returning the losers. The QS8s won the surround back shootout but the M22s just sounded to good for the price to return.

Just so happened that the shelf (hell more like scaffolding) I’d built around my TV was both strong enough and left enough space to exactly fit an M80.

After much experimenting I found the following YMMV.

The best sounding center is running phantom M80s.

Second best is an M80 center (note that may change with the projector screen since no TV screen will be near the center M80 to colour it’s tone.

Third but very close was various M22 center configurations. In summary I found that with all crossovers set to 80Hz the M22 center was at least 95% as good as the M80 center. I did several blind A/B tests between the M22 and M80 center and only my friend who’s and audio engineer could consistently tell the difference. However, running 3 M80s crossed over at 60Hz or 40Hz seemed more dynamic than with the M22 center crossed at 80Hz. Hard to tell for sure since I had to change crossover settings and not just use the switch. Here are my first impressions when did the tests:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthre...true#Post218171

Fourth was the VP150 center

Last was the QS8 center. Don’t think I ever mentioned doing it but I figured I had to try.

I’ve taken a bit of flak for voicing my observation/opinion that the M80 and M22 centers match better than the VP150 to my M80 mains. I think the same tonal/dynamic differences can be said to exist with most if not all vertical tower + horizontal center configurations. Even though most people are slaves to conventional wisdom a goodly number will go unconventional if it means saving significant money. If any brand’s horizontal center which is usually less expensive than the corresponding towers sounded just as good as the towers you’d see many more people running 3 horizontal centers across the front and putting the savings toward something else. Face it…horizontal center speakers are a design compromise to allow them to easily fit above/below a screen and usually not ported like many of their vertical brethren so they work better in an entertainment center.

Just to reiterate I think the VP150 is a fantastic center speaker and had I not accidentally noticed how much more dynamic and tonally balanced the phantom M80s sounded to me I would still be blissfully ignorant. Unfortunately once I trained my ears to hear the difference it became very distracting.

Cheers,
Dean

Which is strange, because the evidence for why 3 matching speakers across the front make the best soundstage is well documented.

Dean. I'm glad that I came across you're and other posts before I bought my system.

Thanks Fred I appreciate hearing that you got something from it.



I agree, but it still didn’t stop me being accused of not knowing how to set up or calibrate my system. I think some people have thought I was slamming the VP150...on the contrary I feel I’m complementing the M80 and especially the M22. I also have a feeling I’m just more sensitive to and/or bothered by tonal differences than many other people.

I figured that when you said you could hear tonal differences in the QS8's.

Dean, maybe it's just that you don't know how to setup or calibrate your system?

::running...ducking::

Always with the negative waves, Moriarty, always with the negative waves…

Very interesting observations, thank you for posting them! In a recent post I was mentioning how I have slowly, but surely, been transitioning to more stereo listening (at least with the front speakers) over the last several months. I have always assumed that my space limitations are what lead to a the better sound with just the M60's and a phantom center. Dang it, now I'll have to kill several evenings playing with the system

Its good to see that we fixed your 'not playing enough' problem.

+1

Thanks for that Dean. In my opinion we are all welcome to own own opnions and favorte settings. And these are simply your opnions and beliefs. Its not like you started a thread that said, "DON'T BY THE VP150"!!! You've acknowledged that it is a fine speaker, but that you prefer the sounds of other speakers over it as a center. And you are certainly welcome to do whatever you want with your money.

But now I'm scared... as you said I'm in audio bliss right now. If I go trying out a phantom center I'm afraid of what I might discover!!! No not really, actually if you've read my posts you'll have seen when I mentioned that I actually prefer to move some of the center channel duty out to the M80's myself. For me it creates a more 'enveloping' atmosphere. In my 7/5 channel mode I use for music I have the M80's handling about 75% of the signal and the VP150 the other 25%. And it sounds so fantastic I can hardly stand it!!!

It our money, I say we use it however it suits us best. I too believe that the 'usual' set up is just the best set-up for the majority of people, not for ALL people. In my quest to get even more performance out of my EP800 I've been very cautious not to come off sounding like I'm at all dissappointed in the unit as is (well, save for the bad amp and defective speaker). In fact I think its an awesome piece of equipment. But then when it occured to me that $50 dollars worth of Dynomat may make it even better, I figured "why not try it"?

Then Alan reminded me that it would technically void my warrantee... so there's one reason. Perhaps I'll hold off on that experiment until the warrantee has run out? Or perhaps I'll throw caution to the wind and "damn the torpedo's"!!! If it works out it will be worth the risk. I'm definately going to wait until I get my replacement woofer in it to make sure that fixes my clanking problem during movies though. Because if it doesn't I may have to swap this unit out for another one.

I went through the exact same transition ending up “backing” into mostly 2ch music listening. I say “backing” into because I’m no life long audio snob who pines for the good old days. I didn’t really start serious music listening until I had 5.1 yet slowly found I preferred 2.0/2.1 for most stereo music (dedicated 5.1 is a different story).

I found that moving to a larger room w/vaulted ceiling makes stereo even more enveloping for me. Elevating my M80s also enhances that effect which makes me curious to try Dolby PLIIz presence channels since I’m totally under-whelmed with PLIIx rear channels.



Good point that reminded me of something I forgot to mention. Not all movie soundtracks sound better in 4.1/6.1 (phantom center) than 5.1/7.1 to me. While researching this I read that some sound engineers mix some of the center channel information into the L/R mains because I helps create a more seamless front soundstage which may be the reason. Sounds like that’s exactly what you are doing by moving some of the center channel duties to the M80s.



My feelings exactly. Conventional wisdom usually develops as a good general compromise for people who just want things to work well. I view the denizens of forums like this as not your average user but more power users who may benefit from tweaking and experimentation. I love learning from the experience of others who like to experiment especially with things I might not have considered or thought important enough to try.