Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater External Amp on it's way....

This hobby is a money sucker to be sure. While planning out the replacements of all of my previous equipment I'd pretty much left the speakers till the last purchase. So after spending $4500 dollars on the final component (Epic 80/800) in my new HT system I had thought I was going to be done... at least for a little while anyway! But after living with such incredible speakers for the last month, they've had quite the opposite effect on me actually. Instead of being completely and utterly satisfied with what I have now, it's fueled my thirst for even more performance! I have added sooo many things on my list now that I want to get, that I hardly knew where to start. First up, I absolutely had to get a Blu-Ray player so that I could hear the new audio formats and of course watch my movies in 1080p. So I went out and bought the Samsung BDP-3600 because I found it for $320, which I thought was a pretty good deal. It has internal decoding capabilities (a must since my 4802 does not have HDMI support), so that bought me a little time before I actually have to upgrade my receiver.

On a side note, I got the BD player all set up last night and we watched 'Handcock' and it was spectacular! I suppose it could all be in my head, but my God it sounded like I had 25 speakers in my room creating all of those wonderful sounds!!! But you know what, as was mentioned in another post somewhere, the bass was quite simply not there through the 5.1 channel analog outs! I had read that bass management suffers through the analog outs in today's new audio formats. I guess they really want you to have to get the HDMI receivers and so on. But aside from that I'm blown away by the way my system sounded, and how great the picture looked on my 65 inch LCD... WOW!!!

Ok so with the Blu-Ray player scratched off of my list I decided it was high time to get something that I've been wanting to get for years and years and years.... an external amp! I've done a lot of listening on two separate systems that had external amps running them and fell completely in love with the way speakers sound while being run with a lot of power. So I always wanted to get my own separate amp to integrate into my HT system. But before joining this forum I was one of those suckers who fell hook, line and sinker for things like power conditioners, Monster Cables, oxygen free speaker wire and all that other garbage out there designed to part a fool from his money. And I was always under the impression that I needed to buy the Denon POA-A1HDCI reference amplifier at $7500 dollars... and of course that just hasn't happened yet.

But now that I'm aware of so many things now a days, thanks to this site, I just put in my order for an Emotiva XPA-3 three channel amplifier. It pushes 300 watts per channel at 4 ohms, I'll be running my left and right mains and my center channel with it. But it also pushes 400 watts x 2 at 4 ohms, so I will definately be playing around with it in 2 channel stereo off and on to see what these M80's will do when being fed their recommended power levels! I'm so pumped I can barely contain my enthusiasm!!! Running my front 3 speakers with the Emotiva will allow the Denon to play the rear channels with more ooomph at loud levels. Like I have stated in other posts, I'm listening to my music in 5/7 channel surround these days. So this should sound fantastic!

Not that the Denon doesn't already make the Axioms sing mind you, I'd never imply that. But once I get it up to around 85 - 90% max power, it does tend to sound just a bit strained. My friend David that had the Harmon Kardon rack system with outboard amplifiers was completely different. Turning the volume up on his rig was not fatiguing in the least. Instead it reproduced music at insane listening levels effortlessly. It never gave the impression that the speakers were being fed more juice than they could handle, nor was there even a hint of distortion what-so-ever. That's the sort of performance I'm hoping to get from the Emotiva.

Now I've read less than stellar reviews about Emotiva on this board before, so I'm very anxious to see how it performs. I figured with it having basically the same kind of guarantee as my Axiom speakers have, I had nothing to lose by auditioning it. If I'm not happy with it's performance, I'll simply send it back. And to be clear, it was the Emotiva XPA-2 that was giving people fits for whatever reason. So I'm not expecting any problems out of the XPA-3. I will write a comprehensive review as I plan on doing a lot of comparison tests between playing the Emotiva + the Denon and just the Denon by itself.

Next up on my list will be getting two more QS8's, and then another two soon after. And last but not least will be an upgraded Denon with HDMI so that I can finally experience all the bass management the new audio formats pack into those Blu-Ray discs... I'm accepting donations to fund this endevor!

Nice! I'm buying a smoker instead. I hear it will make the M80s sound smokin' good. Probably won't help the dynamics like a separate amp though.

congrats on your new purchase..I am sure you will here a significant difference...I know when I went from NAD receiver to NAD separates, there was a night and day difference (well, not as big of a difference as going from an onkyo receiver to the NAD receiver, but there was a noticeable difference for sure)...especially at higher volume levels

Good luck! I'll be eager to hear how that XPS-3 performs. I'm still quite content with my meager LPA-1. That XPS-3 is (on paper) a beast. I hope it lives up to your expectations.

And as someone who has returned something to Emotiva, they do stand behind their return policy.

Fred, I'm still waiting for that 30 watt, earth shaking, sub-woofer you theorize exists out there in the land of mathematical listening environments. We can call it he Al Goreski One, sell it to all the Eco-friendly audiophiles out there.

Yes it is sort of monsterous spec wise. I was actually hoping to get the RPA-2, 350 watts per channel x 2 into 4 ohms. But wouldn't you know it as soon as I was ready to get one I went to their website and it was gone!

I scoured ebay and everywhere else I could think of to no avail, I couldn't find one anywhere. So it looked to me as if the XPA-3 was the next best thing. Which Emotiva product did you have to return?

I would be very interested to read up on your impressions of using the LPA-1 compared to just your Pioneer. Do you have a link to such a post? Did you do a lot of comparison tests between having the Emotiva running things vs having the Pioneer carrying the load? I realize that the Pioneer only pushes 100 watts to 7 channels compared to 125 watts x 5 + 50 x 2 that the LPA-1 powers (not that you use the 50 x 2, you just have the 5.1 set-up correct?), so it would hold the advantage reguardless. But It would still be interesting to know how much better a 7 channel dedicated amp handles things compared to how the power from the (trade off) amp section of a receiver can manage it. Or for that matter, if you experienced no real improvement or noticable difference at all.

Hey Micah, can’t wait to hear how the XPA-3 works for you. I’ve been eyeing it as one option to drive my front 3 M80s, but hesitant due to issues others have had.

Since the only amp I've heard complaints about on this board has been the XPA-2, I figured I would be alright with this amp. I'm very anxious as well, and its schedueled for delivery tomorrow! I can't wait!

Will be looking forward to your impressions. Do you run your 80's large or small?

Good luck, Micah. I will look forward to your report. I also have the BD-P3600. Have you experienced any lip sync issues with Netflix streaming? Are you using HDMI for audio, or just the multichannel analog?

A post from a few days ago indicates he uses multichannel analog.

I am eying either the XPA-3 or XPA-5 also.
Really eagerly waiting for your review....

mpyw,

Have you talked to Emotiva about shipping to Malaysia. I would imagine shipping quotes/cost from Emotiva would be very expensive.

Mica, you might consider buying this NHT. I use one with my M80's (Power 5) and it doesn't whimper at all. It's a heck of a deal...... I'm thinking about buying it just because.....

http://www.listenup.com/NHT+POWER+2+-Clearance--p-POWER-2-p-49702.html

I run them on large. Actually I just went into the Denon the other day and set all speakers to 'large' just to see what they would sound like. I really couldn't hear much of a difference at all between the two settings (not including the M80's). What if anything is the advantage of running the VP150 and QS8's on small anyway?

Haven't actually tried the streaming feature out yet. My receiver does not have HDMI, so just the picture is going out through the HDMI cord. The audio gets sent to my Denon via 7.1 analog outs. I also have an optical audio cable connceted for DVD's (which don't have the same analog capabilities).

What did you pay for your Samsung? I thought $320 was pretty decent.

Not bad at all. Is that a sale they're having just temporarily? If I experience any troubles at all with this Emotiva, I just might return it for one of those!

The bass(if any)below the selected crossover frequency would be handled by the sub(or "Large" main speakers if no sub)which could reproduce those low frequencies better and allow the "Small" speakers to play the higher frequencies a bit more cleanly.

FWIW - I run all my speakers on small with the sub crossed at 80...for mine, I feel it allows the speakers to open a bit in the mids and highs (with separates). When I used to use receivers, the difference was even more pronounced...most receivers cannot (IMO) push true full range main speakers adequately (set to large)

Well I'm in no way trying to slam the EP800 here at all, but I feel the bass that does come out of the M80's is far tighter than what comes out of the EP800. I would not want to set my M80's to small and miss out on their extraordinary bass capabilities!

The M80's are full range speakers so you can set them to large . You can try setting the VP150 to large but I wouldn't recommend it. Maybe there will be a difference in dialogue intelligibility, maybe not. The centre channels job does not really need to deal with low frequencies so I would be hesitant about that, that job is better suited directed to the subwoofer which can play the low frequencies cleaner at a higher spl. No matter what always set the QS8's to small, they are not full range speakers.

Have you tried the m80's set to small with a crossover at 80 vs m80's set to large (with no sub)

Many people find having speakers set to large + subwoofer to sound "boomy" in their rooms.

Have not tried it. But what ever it is I like it. So if it's 'boomy. then I like 'booby'!

Yup, Got the quote from them last month, still considering. For the price incl shipping & tax, still a lot cheaper than those branded power amps available here.

Am considering also the Marantz MM8003 but the review aint that good.

Who doesn't like boobies?

Lmao, I think Froid may have been responsible for that typo!

Ok throw away the math books, the theories, the equations and the alogorythms that all prove 1 watt = 1 watt and that a separate amp isn't worth the metal it's made out of... unicorns and pixie dust are for real!!!

This is just my 1st impression mind you, and from what I understand this will be more of a long term test more than anything. But I simply had to jump on here & spill my first impressions out there for everyone because I'm so excited right now I don't know what else to do!!!

The Fedex man pulled into my drive way bright and early around 8:30 this morning. He says, "this thing whatever it is, it's a freaking monster"!!!

"No problem, just give it to me, I'll carry it in", I tell him. He hands it off to me and I immediately regret my decision to turn down help to carry it inside. Note to self, 'when a man who makes his living moving box's around says "this thing is a monster", take him at his word'!!!

Ok so after almost killing myself lugging this beast into my living room I open it up and take a look at her... she's a stunner! Don't go by the pictures of these beauties online, they don't do them justice. They are very finely crafted jems. Just by looking at it one would easily estimate the cost to be a grand or two. There's no way you would guess I brought this this home for less than $650 dollars, what a wolf in sheeps clothing!

Unfortunately I did not make the shelf underneath my tv long enough to fit this lovely piece of electonics. Its only 16 inches deep, and this thing is 18 inches long... AND HEAVY!!! Oh my God it easily out weighs my Denon that has amps inside it that run up to 9 separate channels. That was my 1st clue that she must have the goods under all this metal. So I set her up hidden away in my HT closet, I will have to find a better place to put her, she simply can't be kept from my sight. Before I do the actual connections I 1st listen to 'Aint no Sunshine' by DMX to get a feel of how well the Dennon pushes the bass through the M80's. Then I connect my front three speakers to the Emotiva and play the same song. Now keep in mind it took me a good 4 or 5 minutes changing the connects, so my mind could be playing tricks on me, but when I first hit play it sounded like I'd turned the volume up 4 or 5 ticks! And that wasn't the only thing I noticed. The music suddenly seemed much more separated. I felt like I could hear the highs and mids much clearer and cleaner. God its hard to put this into words that can make the same impact as what I experienced. I want to learn a different language so I can find different words to discribe it. You hear all these phrases like, "separation", "dynamic", "crystal clear" and "better separation" over and over in reviews so much that they become meaningless. But here I am trying to get across what I've just experienced and they are the same words that come to mind... I feel like a broken record,

One thing that truely surprised me were the QS8's. They seemed to be playing much louder than I ever remember them playing before. Could this be because they are the only two speakers hooked up to my Denon now, so it can finally push them with enough power to make them sing? They sounded beautiful! But the difference in them was no where near as pronounced as my front three speakers. As fantastic as the M80's were sounding, I have to mention the VP150, I don't think I've ever really noticed it before while playing music. But today, today that badboy was belting out notes like nobody's business... that little rascal is brilliant when fed plenty of power let me tell you! I took the grill of and laughed my ass of watching the middle three speakers moving in and out with so much force it was like I'd hooked up a nitrous system to them! Oh why oh why have. Waited so long to do this???

But back to the M80's. Listen I could not have been any more impressed with these towers than I have been the last 2 months... until now. The XPS-3 woke these Axioms up like twin turbo's wake an otherwise humble 6 cyclinder engine up in a Nissan 350Z. The bass they produce, while impressive before, goes beyond all logic once I get the level to around zero on the Denon (I'm trying to take this a bit slow. Don't want to go too far too fast on their first day). Just to make sure it was the M80's putting out all these low frequencies I turned the EP800 off for a while. And just as I thought, they were indeed shaking the walls all by themselves! This is simply something you have to hear to believe, all the reviews I've ever read about the way separates drive speakers... all of them combined could never have prepared me for actually experiencing it in my own living room. Yes I've heard separates perform before, and yes I loved them. But I never heard those same systems play without the amps running them, so I couldn't have known the actual difference they make! After getting to know my Axioms being run by a very respectable receiver, I am blown away by how much better the Emotiva runs the show. Its like getting to know an old friend all over again, and appreciating it even more.

Do you want to wake your M80's up like never before? Do yourself a favor, put the math books down and try hooking up a 200 or 300 watt amp to them and sit back and see why they are rated at 400 watts instead of 30. This may all be a figment of my imagination. I may just be projecting my expectations on this amp because I want to hear a difference. But let me tell you, my imagination has never sounded this great in my life!
I still have plenty of a/b comparing to do. I haven't really gotten to test different songs, or movies out with the Emotiva yet. But rest assured, I can't wait to do so!

Congrats Man! I remember those same feelings of shock and awe.

"but just remember, all amps sound the same"

sorry, couldn't resist...

Enjoy Micah

Nice, glad ya found what I've been saying for years. Not many here believe it though, it's all in our heads.

wow...great to hear that. I wonder if the emo would do the same for my M60 as it's a 8 ohm speakers....

No no Rick, indeed they are right. The wonderful sounds actually do travel inside our heads through our ear canals!

Naw, Rick; no claim that it's "all in our heads". That's part of of it, of course, but the other part is not controlling the variables adequately, such as is done in a proper blind listening test. The most significant variable usually being the necessity to match the volume levels to about 0.1dB, which can't be done by ear. When the new unit is played slightly louder these observations about stronger bass, overall clearer sound, bigger sound stage, etc, none of which can be accomplished by any amplifier at the same sound level, appear. So you("you" meaning all of us)can't simply "Just trust your ears", the slogan so loved by audio salesmen making claims which have no factual support.

i agree with you micah.....a quality separate amp makes a big difference. i have tested my own system out with receivers and separate amps and quite simply there is a large difference. congrats on your new addition!

Ok I'm here to report something that I think I would definately be able to pick up in a blind test. After listening to 'Into the Ocean' by Blue October both through the Denon and then through the Emotiva, I noticed something unmistakable. When the Denon is controlling things the voiced sound very loud when the bass isn't present. Then as soon as the bass kicks in both the voices and the rest of the higher frequency sounds seem to drop a notch. I've noticed this on several songs in the past, but it's the only one I played with both set-ups. Once I hooked the M80's back up to the XPA-3 (I was only switching the M80's back and forth to save time) the upper frequencies never dipped when the bass hit. They remained at the same level, and the bass simply came in as if out of another speaker somewhere altogether.

I'm certainly no electronics expert, nor an audio nut who knows the X's and O's of these amplifiers. But my guess is that the M80's pull a certain amount of wattage out of the Denon, then when the bass comes in heavy that wattage has to be split between the 6 inch woofers and the 4 inch woofers + tweeters that are handling the voices and other high frequency sounds. With all 5 channels driven there must not be enough wattage to fully supply all the power the M80's need to keep the high frequencies playing at the same level once the 6 inch woofers start to rob them. But with the Emotiva (I just read through the instrucion booklet that came with the amp and it says it pushes 200 watts at 8 ohms and 350 watts at 4 ohms. The website showed 200 watts at 8 ohms and 300 watts at 4 ohms... so I'm actually getting an extra 50 watts than what I'd bargained for... SWEET!!!), they have plenty of power to run everything equally.

That's my theory anyhow. I don't know what else could be going on, but I definately noticed a difference in that respect. Pixie dust - 1, math books - 0

That's really good to hear Micah, and I have been considering a power amp for my front channels as well. I was just a little turned off by Emotiva due to the XPA-2 problems I have read about.

Quick question - Do you notice the Denon running significantly cooler now? Also, how hot is the XPA-3 when being pushed?

You can hear that a lot w/ low-budget DJs at the bowling alley or so; usually their amp will get overdriven much sooner than their speakers and that's exactly what you'll hear. So, what you are describing is fairly easy to distinguish and most likely it's not due to the placebo effect. On the other hand, I totally agree w/ JohnK's blind test argument. I think the question here is: at what SPL an 100watts Denon AVR start to show distortion/clipping. My opinion is that it happens much sooner than advertised.

In controlling the variables you have to test at equal standards across the board. For example, if power is a potential factor in the experiment, test at a low standard SPL so that power is removed as a factor before concluding on differences in sound between amp sections of equipment.
Obviously at high enough SPL the Denon receiver will fail in comparison to a separate amp in reproducing sound which has a more substantial power system.
More than once i've seen the lights dim on my Onkyo when i drive the 5 speaker system too loudly.

Wow, BIG scare just now!!! I was running the Emotiva most of the day yesterday, and was playing it at fairly high levels for quite some time last night. It performed flawlessly and I kept feeling the top of it (I moved it, I just couldn't take it being hidden away in the closet, so I modified the shelf below the tv to fit it by extending it out enough to accomodate the long XPA-3... there is no back to the shelf, and there is 3 1/2 inches on either side and 8 inches of clearance above it, so plenty of room to breath), and while it did feel warm, it never felt 'hot'. I also felt the Denon to compare it and it felt quite a bit cooler. But I never really felt it before while running it hard, so I couldn't tell you how much of a difference it made. Just that it did indeed run cooler than the Emotiva.

So anyways I was quite happy with every aspect of it's performance. I even left it hooked up to just the M80's for now as it will send around 400 watts to them in two channel mode! Ok so at the end of the night I shut her off and went to bed. Today I was out running around all day and when I got home around 45 minutes ago I immediately switched on the Emotiva (I just love watching those pretty blue lights come on). While it's hibernating the power button is red. Then when you push it a little red LED comes on in the lower left hand corner to signify it's checking channel 1. Then it goes out and a red LED comes on in the lower center of the screen to signify it's checking channel 2. Then it goes out and the same thing happens in the lower right hand portion of the screen signifying it's checking channel 3 and then the power button turns blue and all 3 blue LED's turn on signifying it's ready to rock. Well, as soon as I pushed the power button the first red LED comes on, hesitates for just a second, then starts flashing and the power button stays red... OH HEEEEEEEEEEEELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For about a minute, minute and a half I sat there stunned, thinking my experience was about to take the same turn as a few others on this board did. The first thought that came to my mind was, "that was fast"!!! Then I finally looked up and noticed the Denon was off. I rarely if ever turn the Denon off so my fiancee must have. So I turn the Emotiva off, turn the Denon on, then hit the power button on the amp again and voila, success!!! WHEEEEEW, HUGE sigh of relief!!! I was so scared that I had already broken this amp that it about made me sick. But luckily it was a simple error on my part that caused the confusion. I'm hoping this will be the only time I ever see that flashing red light!

The Emotiva was running warm to the touch, the Denon was warm as well but not nearly as warm as the Emotiva. I can't say I can remember the last time I checked the Denon while running it hard so it's hard to say if it was a big change or not. But it was indeed running cooler than the Emotiva, which wasn't running THAT hot really.

You will have to come over some time and check it out. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to convince you of buying a product that you're on the fence about the same as you did for me!

Why not use the DC trigger on your Denon? That way, you never ever have to worry about it. Damn...all this talk is making me want to buy the 1400-8. I'll never need it, but I really want it! Maybe I can rationalize the Emotiva XPA as a first baby step!

Here's some posts/pics from an Emotiva get together.I noticed they had some M80s in attendance as well as some other speakers.Looks like a room I'd like to be in.I know some people have had some issues with the Emo amps but there are quite a few Emo/Axiom combos that do get along and sound sweet.Just scroll down.

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=off&action=display&thread=5370&page=8

Looks like a great time to me. I would love to be part of a GTG. I liked what the guy had to say about the M80's...



Nice. Let the M80's bad rep be dispelled one GTG at a time!

M80s are ear bleeding bright, lack bass and hard to drive, say anything else and you may rip apart the time-space-continuum. Well at least at a certain forum.


P.S. almost forgot they also have to many tweeters, poor build quality, cheap crossovers and look crappy. Did I forget to mention that they are reeeeaaaallllllyyyyy bright.

Well actually I have to agree with the lack of bass comment. If you disconnect the bottom 4 drivers and run only the two tweeters, then I'm afraid the M80's really do lack bass. Oh well nobody's perfect!

Day four living with my XPA-3 and I have to say, I'm probably going to be completely def by the time I'm 40 (I'm 38 currently). The reason? Well I've been listening to my music really loud lately, and not even noticing it. When I first turn it on I seem to be able to tell that it's actually pretty loud and I turn it to sane levels. But the more I listen, a certain song will play and I'll go, "oh, I have to turn this song up", and then I wind up leaving it there. Then another favorite will come up and I'll do the same and so on and so forth.

But what I've come to realize is that when your playback signal is clean you hardly notice how loud you are actually playing it. UNTIL someone tries to say something to you, and they are practically screaming at the top of their lungs, and you can barely hear them!!! That's when I suddenly realize I have the stereo really jamming, and I turn it back down. But then it suddenly sounds really, really quiet, and I long for the higher volumes again! This could be a very damaging purchase I have made.

But God does it sound good!

Yeah, Micah; the guys who reviewed the M80s like that weren't able to see any use for those little metal strips on the speaker terminals, so they just took them off so that they wouldn't "degrade" the sound.

Seeing your second post, you're right, that can be a problem. "Clean" sound that's too loud is just as damaging to your hearing and can sneak up on you because of the lack of distortion. I'm into audio to enjoy music and not to cause me permanent hearing damage while paying more for the privilege. Typical average volume of 70-75dB with split second peaks of up to 20dB more on the most dynamic classical recordings is fine. When listening "loud" on occasion that average can be raised to 80-85dB and the peaks are still easily handled by typical amplification.

I know that keeps happening to me! Just the other day watching “Hunt for Red October” James Earl Jones sounded like Tomoko Kaneda

The little one on the left

To add to your point John, I find, for me, classical music is the most dangerous of music types for me to turn up to high, only to be blasted somewhere in the middle.

So many classical pieces start off very softly and if this is the first music I'm playing when turning everything on, I'm tempted to adjust the volume up only to have it eventually get much much louder. It's not as bad if I have been playing other things as I already have the volume set at a comfortable level and am less tempted to touch it.

This is also partly due to me being still mostly unfamiliar with my classical recordings to predict the swings in peaks and lulls. Actually, you are partially to blame for that because I have bought way more classical lately than I could ever become super familiar with. But that's a good thing.

I thought volumes levels were not noticeable unless you went up 1db or 3db, I can't recall which? If it only takes 0.1db to notice better bass, clearer sound, and better staging, then why do we always hear that you need a 1,000 more watts to notice a difference? I missed something in this exchange.

70-75? Good Gawd man, your missing out. Ray Brown's stand-up bass does not sound the same at 70 db as live. Sorry, just doesn't. You can feel the music in your bones live with each pluck of the strings. And there is no pain involved! Same for pianos and horns and drums. But I agree with you, a $20,000 amp would not make my computer speakers sound better at 75db. But why use Axioms, et al., for that level? To each his own, but seems like overkill for someone offended by the amount of overkill in this industry (which there is a great deal of).

Yours Truley, Honorary Head of the Pixie Dust Brigade.

I totally agree with 'to each his own'. And if you keep your music between 70 - 80 db's and enjoy it there more power to you, and an external amp would truely be a waste of money for you. Also I would never try to insinuate that you need to 'turn it up' if you enjoy it where it's at now. Some people have more sensitive hearing than others and enjoy the experience just as much at lower volumes as us power freaks enjoy knocking the shingles off of the roof when we have control of the volume knob.

I am really enjoying the way my M80's pound out musical notes crisp, clean & smooth while the volume is cranked with my XPA-3 running the show. And certainly a distorted signal at 120 db's is no more or less damaging to our ears than a clean signal at 120 db's. Shear volume alone is the enemy when it comes to hearing impairment, the quality of that volume has little impact if any. What audible distortion usually accomplishes in a regular setting anyway, is that it clues you in that you're listening too loud and should turn it down. Without any distortion it becomes a lot harder to even be able to tell how loud it is playing. So indeed an external amplifier may well be damaging to my ears, I have excepted that risk I

Of course I also ride a motorcycle & don't currently have health insurance, so I suppose I'm just one who likes to live on the wild side

As far as hearing damage, I'm hoping that with some sound isolation measures I won't have to turn my system up quite as loud to hear all of the details. It would be nice to preserve my hearing and retain some headroom on my amp. I wonder how much quieter I can actually make my room without spending gobs of cash, though. Has anyone else here done this with meaningful results, as far as not having to turn the system up so much?

What is causing the background noise that you need to control.

Yes, Charles; as Dean asks, what is causing a high noise floor in your room? I haven't done anything unusual here, but I estimate a floor of about 40dB and can hear musical content below 50dB quite clearly during low level passages. So, I have no problem using levels varying from roughly 45dB to 105dB on the most dynamic recordings, which cause neither hearing nor power problems.

There are always sounds bothering me, even if they're not constant. In my current room, I can hear stuff outside regularly, and when the central air kicks on, that's a big annoyance that requires quite an increase in volume. Then there's the refrigerator and freezer in the next room. The outside noises and central air are nearly muted in the basement, where my system will end up, but I also plan on getting a projector, which will bring its own noise. Because of the open layout of the basement, I will still have the refrigerator's noise, and it will be in the same room, not the next room. I don't really know what to do about that. I also need to do what I can to isolate the noise from the rest of my equipment (especially when I'm using the Xbox 360 or PS3. It just seems that with each of these contributors, I have to raise the volume that much more to get all of the details.

Not what you want to here but the cheapest and easiest way to deal with the various noise you have is circumaural closed headphones at least when alone.

If by outside you mean out of doors figure out where the noise is getting through. If it’s the walls you’re screwed unless you want do some major work. If it’s windows you can do a couple things. Most expensive would be to replace them with double pane if they aren’t already. Double cell blinds will also help cut down on noise but these can also be pricy. Blackout/thermal curtains will help cut down a little noise. If you want really cheap and don’t you can do what I did in my apartment. I just cut some foam insulation panels to fit inside the window frame. I blocked out some noise and all the light.

Some of the noise is probably sneaking by the door. Some foam or rubber weather stripping can help here. Will also block light trying to get by.

No easy fix for the central air that I know of.

For the refrigerator about all I think you can do is make sure it’s not touching the wall. If it’s vibration rubber sound isolation feet might help a little. You could also try throwing a piece of foam insulation behind it between it and the wall. Not sure how safe that would be though.

Depending on the layout of the basement you might be able to use some heavy curtains to cut down on the refrigerator noise. I’m curious about it making so much noise. I hardly notice the one in my house and it’s just around the corner in the kitchen. Even in the apartment the only time it was an issue was when running the auto-setup on the Denon, I would unplug it just for piece of mind.

For the equipment you either need to put it in another room or in a closet/cabinet to dampen the sound especially the Xbox cause that sucker is loud. However, ventilation will be an issue if you use a closet/cabinet.

Again the easiest cheapest solution for your present room is headphones.

Hey, thanks for all of those tips. It's really not bad enough that I'd be tempted to go with closed headphones, and I will be doing what I can in the basement. It's just one of those things I want to do so I can get that little bit more out of what I have.

I had actually considered heavy curtains to be pulled in front of the kitchen area in the basement when it's movie/music time. I was already going to use a heavy curtain to block off the stairwell, which is going to be the only real source for outside noise. I would have liked double-paned windows in the stairwell, but my dad had already installed some others before I knew it. If I can still hear the yapping dog on that side of the house, I may have to redo those windows and that wall.

I have double-cell blinds (Bali) in the rest of the house. I can't say I notice whether or not they cut down on noise, but I know they tout it.

Anyway, I'm not going to be doing anything major in my present room, but I'll post about what happens in the basement and probably get further advice. In the meantime, I should probably let this thread get back to where it was.

Thanks again, Dean!

If you have a 60 GB PS3, it's probably louder now than when it was new. The problem is Sony used a cheap heat sink compound which remelts each time the temperature rises. With the clamping pressure of the heat sink to the CPU it migrates out from between them.

I took my PS3 apart, cleaned all the old compound out with ArctiClean, and then used a little ArcticSilver to replace it. After the AS cured, the fan hardly runs at all anymore, and when it does it is at a lower speed than before.

That’s nice information Chris, thanks!


I measured and they don’t do much for anything but the high frequencies. OTOH1
the double cell blinds are doing a great job keeping my house cool and blocking out the light.

The double pane windows seem to help quite a bit. I have more sound leakage through my solid wood front door than through the arcadia door.

However, I can still here the neighbors dog barking when it’s on the side of their yard near my house. Luckily I’ve only heard it a couple of times in 4 months as it only barks when strangers walk near their house.

I mentioned the PS3 (and yes, you remember right about it being one of the launch 60 GB ones), but I actually gave mine away. I had only been using it to watch Blu-rays for the last several months, and someone I knew had just bought an HDTV. Since I got an OPPO, it made sense for me to pass it along to someone who would get some real use out of it. I'll get another PS3 at some point, though, as I'm sure there will be games I'll want to play. We'll see how the slim PS3s look.

Charles, I can sympathize with you on the noisy environment. I'm on a "bigger" route in a small city / big town and have traffic noise constantly. My living room and HT is on the front corner facing a big 5-way intersection with the high school across the street and a hospital up the road. Replacing our windows helped, but I'm not sure there is much more I can reasonably do.

Several years ago, while building my soundbooth, I found losts of good information on the Auralex site. It's a little odd to navigate as there's Auralex University, Acoustics 101, etc... but it's all there (mixed in somewhere).

Remember that you're looking for information on isolation... not diffusion or absorption products.

I'd say save your money and put it into your basement. Your basement has a huge head start as there is dirt surrounding at least 3 of your walls (is it a walk-out basement or enclosed?). My basement set-up was a walk-out, the HT was against the far wall from the opening and either side was underground. There were two small windows at the very top of the wall that I filled in with fiber-fill to make it darker and keep any unwanted noise out. I wish I still had that room for my current set-up. The entry level system I had down in that basement sounded great because of the room being so 'dead'. It was really dead, have you ever walked into a sound proof room or a really well insulated room and you could practically hear the silence? That's about what my basement was like. So the music filled the room completely, there were no external noises to have to contend with.

I never even knew of room treatments back then though. So it could have sounded even better. And then there are the Axiom speakers I have now, good God do I wish I could have listened to these down there! So yeah I'd just concentrate on getting the basement ready for your move down there. You should be MUCH happier once you get everything down there. I will tell you this, do you remember the pics of my HT closet I built? It does an excellent job of keeping all of my equipment quiet. All of the exhaust fans from the computers and so on all empty out into the rear of the closet, and I don't hear any of them. We live out in the country now, so my biggest annoyance is when the window air conditioner is running. It makes a lot of noise. But this winter will be better because we have an Edenpure than runs super quiet. I don't usually look forward to winter, but for this very reason, I'm looking forward to listening to my system in a nice, quiet setting.

Hmm, that's not a bad idea. I guess I better pick up some and get to work! thanks

*** UPDATE ***



Ok so I had mentioned this would be more of a 'long term' report as opposed to hearing it out of the box and giving my write-up on the XPA-3. Well it's been about a month now so I figured I'd give my impressions so far.

I won't rehash all of the fidelity improvements I stated earlier, all I'll say is they haven't changed. As far as reliability issues go... well that's a little up in the air right now. If you'll recall I was working feverishly on getting the 12 volt trigger working between the Denon and the Emotiva. Their plugs weren't the same, so I had to make it a DIY project, getting my parts down at the Shack. After trying a few connects that didn't work, I finally found a set of plugs that did the job. I was able to plug the one connect into the Denon, and the other one slipped right into the back of the Emotiva. So I figured my 12 volt trigger was done.

But I was mistaken.

When I turn the Denon on and off it has no effect on the Emotiva what-so-ever. If the Emotiva is off and I turn the Denon on... the Emotiva stays off. If the Emotiva is on and I turn the Denon off the Emotiva stays on. So for now I'm stumped as to what to do for the 12 volt trigger. Why does this all matter you ask??? Well the Emotiva has at times switched to protect mode on me, and I was trying to get the 12 volt trigger up and running so that whenever the Denon was on it would send a constant signal to the Emotiva to keep it on. It seems as though the XPA-3 goes into protect mode out of confusion more than anything. For instance in all this time I've only actually noticed the amp going into protect mode once during musical playback. Upon noticing that, interested in whether or not it was somehow the pull from the speakers during that particular passage that sent it into protect mode, I turned the amp back on and played the exact same song, at the exact same volume and everything... it made it through the song unscathed the second time (and every other time since then I might add).

It's gone into protect somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 to 8 times since I hooked it up. But, the interesting thing is it's never when you'd think it would. For instance you'll remember the first time I noticed the red light blinking, it was after I'd turned the Denon off without turning off the Emotiva. Well every other time the red light has started blinking it's been at odd times, like once I hit the eject button on the DVD player and it started blinking? There wasn't even any music or anything playing, so how could it need protecting? All the other times, besides the single musical passage I mentioned above, has been while I've been switching the Denon from once source to the next. Mind you it's not EVERYTIME I switch the source, but the few times it's gone into protect, that's usually when it does so. Again there was never anything even playing when this was going on, so it seems to me that for what ever reason, when the Emotiva has NOTHING being sent to it, it goes into protect mode. Strange.

It's nothing more than an annoyance mind you. Once the red light starts flashing I just turn the unit off, turn it right back on and she's good to go. But that was why I was trying to get the 12 volt trigger to work. I figured if it were fed a constant signal, perhaps it would stop doing this. But I have never once been able to drive it into protect mode while really pushing the system. I can play it loud and strong all I want, the XPA-3 takes it all in stride. And it does so without ever getting more that a little warm to the touch. I've played it 6 hours straight at fairly challenging levels and felt her and the Denon felt warmer than she did.

So all in all a month has passed and besides a small irritation that may or may not have a resolution, the Emotiva has me grinning from ear to ear whenever I'm playing my system. Perhaps there are other amps out there that never shut down inexplicably like this once has (and maybe this one won't either once I figure out the 12 volt trigger). But I doubt many of those can give me this much performance for such a small price tag.

For all I've gotten out of the Emotiva at this incredible price point, I'll flick the power button every so often (it's averaged two blinking lights per week so far).... no biggie!



P.S. (another theory I had was that we had our circut overloaded up until this past Friday. Everything in the room was all on one breaker. When the air conditioner would kick on the lights would dim and all that jazz. So we put the electronics on a separate breaker than everything else, and put the computers on yet another separate breaker. Perhaps is was the strain on the system that contributed to the Emotiva going into protect??? We'll have to wait and see I suppose. I haven't noticed the red light blinking since Friday though!)

1. did you assign the trigger in the setup menu?
2. why would you keep an amp that keeps going into protect mode?

Setup menu eh... actually no, I didn't realize I needed to do this.

I've been trying to trouble shoot the protect mode thing since it had nothing to do with what it should have to do with. I dunno, the Denon did go through a fire as you'll recall. And although it seems to work just fine I wasn't sure if perhaps there was an unforseen problem with it, so I'm trying to give the Emotiva a chance. Now that I have all of my HT electronics switched over to a separate circut, I'm keeping my eye on it to see if it continues to do so for no apparent reason. If so, then I might consider sending it back (have 4 days left in the trial period).

But the biggest reason is, because over all I'm very pleased with it.

Thanks for the update. I’m still considering the XPA-3 as a possible upgrade especially if I get the Outlaw 997 instead of the SN R-972.

You say it’s gone into protect mode about twice a week, about how many hours is that. I have my system on virtually every minute I’m home and not sleeping. Shutting off like that could be very annoying. Have you checked to see if others are having this issue?

There is no way in hell I would keep an amp that goes in protect mode. If my Rotel did this when it was new it would have gone back where it came from, period.

Out of curiosity, are you M80s set to full-range (large) or with a cross-over (small)?

Hmmm...sounds like you need to check the 12v switch setup in the On Screen Menu. I know my NAD has defeatable 12v input settings, etc. It is also possible that you had too much on the breaker....although I have my entire family room setup (NAD Separates (140x7 all channels driven at the same time), Servo 15 sub, 6 recessed can lights, fan, 2 large cansiter filters for the 75g cichlid tank, and some other things on the same breaker and my NAD and has never shut down - and that would include running for extended times at 100db plus (parties, etc). IN fact, my amp has never, ever, even been more then 10 degrees warmer then the ambient temp. I do agree they seem to give a lot of bang for the buck, but perhaps the reduced cost is due to a reason? I agree with above, I would not keep an amp that kept shutting down

I work in my living room all day editing pictures and listening to music. Then at night I watch movies... so my system gets worked out a good 8 - 12 hours easy a day.

Large.


Also, yes I realize a lot of people wouldn't put up with any sort of irregularities what-so-ever. And that is totally understandable in my book. However I give things a fair chance before jumping the gun. I know not many people would put up with a $2300 dollar subwoofer that had a single problem what-so-ever, however I am currently waiting on the THIRD replacement part to make this thing work properly. Guess I'm just patient.

Neither did I until I happened across it while looking for something else. I can't remember what the default setting is though.

I know I wouldn't have, that's for sure.

Ok I looked high and low in the on screen menu and couldn't find anything related to a 12 volt trigger anywhere on there. Is anyone familiar with the 4802 that could point out how to activate it?

Rick, I don't blame you for a second for your opinion. I know many of my friends would probably have boxed up every piece of equipment Axiom had sent them and told them to take a hike if they'd experienced the problems I have with mine. And I can understand that position. Its just not how I usually react.

I can see myself doing so If a new vehicle acted up on me though. That would be my breaking point.

On my 2808 its under:

Setup
- Manual Setup
-- Option Setup
--- Trigger Out

Hmmm... I have nothing that resembles that in my menu. I will have to try to look it up on the internet. But thanks for the tip!

Glad the Emo is giving you the improvement you wanted. I don't have an opinion on if you should return your amp, but just FYI my pro amp has never shut down or clipped. As JohnK will warn you, I listen at the louder end of the spectrum, but not near the hours you put on it. Just to help you survey the market. Good luck and enjoy.

($2,300 for faulty sub is a whole different story. I have a strong opinion on that one.)

I’m feeling a bit of dejavu.

Randy went through this a while back with his Emo. I suggested that he send it back, he ignored that advice. He then spent a few days / weeks batting emails back and forth with the Emo folks. In the end, he sent it back.

Now here you are, in the same boat.

Now here I am, suggesting you send it back.

You’ll ignore that advice.

Hey, he's happy with it.

So was Randy.

My 2809 has much the same procedure as Fred's 2808. It's a possibility that you may have to unlock your settings first before applying the trigger, if indeed you did that(applying the setting lock).

Actually I have 3 days left to decide, and I haven't ruled out sending it back for a new one. Because it could be my stuff sending it into protection, or it may be the amp... what's certain is it isn't the speakers because only one time has it gone into protection while anything at all was playing. So what would the harm be in swapping this one out for a new one and see what it does, eh?

Then if it did the same thing in the next 30 days I might just return it for good.




P.S. Just wanted to clarify that I don't listen to my system full blast 8 - 12 hours a day. My fiancee works in the room with me, and while she's in here I have it playing at much more subtle levels so that we can talk back and forth and such. But as soon as she leaves to go somewhere, HERE COME THE JUICE!!!!!