Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater how much to spend on a sub?

I am thinking of buying 2-M2's and a VP100 for my 2600+ cubic foot living room.
I plan to use an Onkyo 606 and wondered about what to spend on a sub or two?

I have looked at Axiom of course - and I like the EP400 - but its $1100.
I have looked at SVS, Epik, Rythmik and Hsu and all the subs I am interested in cost $600+ - is that too much money?

Can anyone recommend a lower cost sub?
Should I just be quiet and spend the money?

Any help would be appreciated.
I am new at this and I fear I might spend $1000 and not hear any difference between that sub and a much cheaper one.

I do not want room shaking bass - just undistorted lows that enhance movie watching (80% of my listening).

Thanks in advance for your help.
Mike.

IMO, get the most you can afford. You gain the ability to play lower frequencies (mainly for movies) and the power to fill the room.

Not sure what too much money is for a sub... I have a $2000 monster (SVS) in my similar sized room and I am grinning from ear to ear every time I watch an action movie. Do I "need" that much sub??? Maybe not, but it can handle everything I throw at it.

Mike,

At first I thought I'd tell you not to go with Axiom for your subs because I for one believe you can find more 'BANG' for your buck with other brand subs. BUT, there at the end you mentioned not needing 'room shaking bass', just nice low bass for movies. Now this is where I think Axioms do very well. They aren't rap artist subs, they are more of an audiophile subwoofer.

So my advice, is if you have the loot, try an EP400 or two out in your room with your other speakers. If after 30 days they don't perform to your standards you can turn them back in and shop for another brand. My EP800 isn't going back. I had originally bought it with a return in mind if I wasn't satisfied ($2300 can buy A LOT of bass with other manufacturers) with it. But dispite having some bum parts when I received it, I am so happy with it as of now (I still have a faulty woofer to replace in it) that there's no way Axiom will get this thing back.

That is of course, unless they come out with an EP1000 sometime in the near future and I decide to upgrade!

All those subs you mentioned, there are others too, are very good value per $$ IMO. Remember, if you're using a sub mostly for movies (80% you say), then a sub adds a considerable amount to the movie experience. Outlaw Audio has some reasonable priced subs worth checking out also.

PS. Micah, who let the cat out of the bag re the EP1000!!

Doh!!!

Mike, no you certainly shouldn't "just be quiet and spend the money" because the tone of your post indicates that you're not comfortable even at the $600 level. You can spend less and get a quite good sub; for example, when you were looking at Hsu, I'd think that the STF-2 should be quite attractive to meet your needs for around $350.

Mike,
There are lots of options out there on subs. One you might check out are the Paradigm DSP series. I almost bought one, but did go with Axiom factory outlet in the end. The Paradigm DSP's sound great and are good value for the $$ IMHO.

THanks for the replies.

I don't have that much of a problem spending the money for good bass - and I am looking forward to the nice effect it will have for movies.

My concern was will I be able to tell the difference between a $350 sub and a $1100 sub and leads me to another question.
If I spend $1100 on a EP400 - would I be better off getting two $550 subs from another manufacturer?

Thanks again for your help

Yes you will be able to tell a great deal of difference between a good well designed subwoofer in the $350 price and a good well designed $1000 subwoofer. A good $350 would not be able to compete in the realm of home theatre as well not be able to provide sufficient ouput in larger rooms for more demanding music and especially home theatre compared to a good $1000 subwoofer.

As to your question about buying 1 expensive sub as opposed to 2 cheaper subs. It really depends on what you are comparing because adding a 2nd sub has its benefits though personally I would usually take 1 better peforming sub than 2 lesser subs.

I have the DSP3400 and am very happy with it esp for what I paid, good bang-4-the-$$.

ab030, it also depends on your location....a number of these subs are available at a decent $$ on the US side but are somewhat more costly to bring into Canada. On the other side of it, some of the Canadian subs like Paradigm, PSB, Energy ect are usually a good deal esp in Ontario.

2 subs vs 1 sub? why not start with one and see how you make out before spending extra on another one? there'e a lot of competition in the $400-700 range.

The question about multiple subs is going to depend almost entirely on your room (both size and configuration). My opinion is that the mid-level subs from SVS, Hsu, Axiom, Elemental Designs, etc. would be a good place to start. You might find that one EP350 is quite sufficient. One of the great things about doing business with Axiom is that if - after getting an EP350 - you decide within the 30 day trial period that you really just want the EP400 or EP500 instead, they will make it painless to upgrade.

I recently upgraded a 7 year old 325w SVS sub to a new 750w SVS sub. I had moved to a home with a living area of over 7k cu ft.

The new sub puts out more power and to a lower frequency. Makes a noticeable improvement in this size room for movies. Music is not that much different since the older sub covered those freqs present in most music tracks. I think the extra power (from 325w to 750w) is most useful on the lowest frequencies present in movie tracks.

In your size room 300w might be enough depending on how loud you like to play your movies. Axiom sub's seem expensive to me but they have great policies on trade-in, warrantee, and service.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Yes.

My first (home) sub was a ~$300 Kenwood 10", 400W sub. Your typical mass-market big-box store sub. I was amazed at the thump and bass that it would put out when it was paired with a set of full-range speakers. A couple of years later, I bought some smaller bookshelves, and had a heck of a time getting any sort of midrange warmth in my system. I bought M22's to try to remedy it. Helped, but still really cold.

By that time I was looking to this group for advice, and several people recommended that I dump the Kenwood and get a "real" sub. I did my research and bought on an $800 SVS PCi+ 12" 20-39. Blew. My. Mind. It completely changed my system. I had no idea how much upper bass warmth and lower-bass punch & impact I was missing, and how much that added to both movies and music. Movie explosions changed from just being this loud boom/rumble to actually having dimension and nuances to it. And the power, holy moly. I've actually managed to break my house* with the power of this SVS sub.

The most chilling demonstration came when playing Yo Yo Ma - his cello simply came to life in my living room. All those low frequency harmonics that my old sub couldn't produce were now present. Stunning. It nearly brought tears to my eyes.

A sub may only really "stand out" when watching a movie, but I say that they make a pretty serious difference just in music too. Absolutely ZERO regrets in buying that sub. Other than being curious as to how much better an even MORE expensive sub would be.

So yes, put some money into a good sub. It's worth it and you will be able to tell the difference. Since this is an Axiom forum, of course you're going to get a lot of recommendations on Axiom's subs. The EP500 & EP600 are said to be amazing. I have not heard either. If you feel you need an all-Axiom system, by all means, get one and be content knowing you've got one of the best subs on the market.

But there are always other options. I'm completely happy with my SVS sub. And HSU Research is another one you should look into. As with Axiom, both HSU and SVS make subs that offer tremendous value for the money.

Good luck!

*Seriously. My home has old casement windows that have weights behind the walls attached to ropes to help open/close the windows. I've had several of those ropes snap during LOUD sub passages.

There is lots of good advice so far. On one vs two subs, the trade offs are:

With one more expensive sub you can get something that is going to reproduce the really low movie effects (below 20Hz) better. The cost is less smooth in room response. You may be able to find a good sub placement for the main seating position, but the response will be less even for other seating positions.

With two lesser price subs, you will give up something on the bottom end, but you will get a more even response across all listening positions.

If its just you, buy the biggest sub you can afford and enjoy subwoofer nirvana from your throne. If you have other people watching with you AND they actually care about low frequency stuff in movies, consider two smaller subs.

One final thought. I didn't care much about earth shattering rumble before I got a sub. In fact, all I cared about was that I wouldn't miss anything in music. Once I started watching movies with my new setup I developed a new appreciation for movie LFE.

eD has some nice offerings also.

Does your living room open up to hallways or a kitchen or dining room? That will play a large roll in the impact of your sub.

Out of all the speakers you buy I feel you shouldn't go cheap on the sub, especially if it is going to be 80% for movies.

If you are looking for more recommendations there is a ton of information under the subwoofer category on audioholics.

I would spend the money on either diy or go with one of the internet direct companies. This will give you more bang for your buck. Set a limit you want to spend on a sub and grab the best one you can in that price range.

Mike, your question about whether you'll be able to tell the difference between a $350 sub and a $1100 sub can't be accurately answered in the abstract. The first variable is of course which particular $350 model or $1100 model. In audio equipment, as in everything else in this world, you very often don't "get what you pay for". A more expensive speaker or sub may or may not be audibly superior, and when it is better there's a noticeable tendency(especially on the part of the new owner)to exaggerate the degree of difference.

If you take it into context of this thread and the brands mentioned which can be categorized as great subwoofer manufacturers the cheaper offerings do not compare to the more expensive models. For instance SVS PB 10 vs the SVS 12 or SVS ultra or the Axiom EP 125 vs EP500...no comparison when it comes to overall performance.

speaking of subs, I thought this ED sub looked pretty interesting:
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?t=0&products_id=891
I wonder how it compares to the ep800?
It is about the same price, has dual 13" drivers instead of 12", 1300 watts instead of 800, and weighs about 100 pounds more.... I don't think it has a DSP chip though.

thanks for all your replies.

i plan to get 2-M2's and a VP100.
I might go with the EP400 due to it's small size.

I think the wife would prefer something smaller.

Have any of us actually heard the eDs? I know we talk about them a lot, but I don't think I've ever seen an outright comparison.

I understand wife approval factors but suggest that you read the Home Theater Sound professional review of the EP400 that Axiom has posted before you make any decision. Two short quotes from that review:

"As good as the EP400 was with music, I felt a little underwhelmed when I used it with movies. I watched the Blu-ray edition of the recent version of Casino Royale, whose uncompressed PCM 5.1 soundtrack contains lots of deep-bass effects. Near the end is a scene in which a building in Venice is destroyed. Although the EP400 put out decent sound levels, I wasn’t blown out of my seat as I’d expected to be"

"To make sure nothing was wrong with my sample, I spoke with Ian Colquhoun, head honcho of Axiom. He suspected that my 20’ by 14’ room was probably a bit big for the EP400, which was designed more for smaller spaces such as a bedroom or den."

I haven't heard an ED sub but would definitely like to. who knows.

Regarding the topic of the OP I would consider and ep350 or 500 if you are going for an axiom sub. I really like my 500.

thanks for the heads up on the EP400 - as my roon is bigger than 14x20.

More thinking....

By today's standards the EP350/500 size (same box for both) is quite small compared to other companies offerings for ported subs. I know the EP350/500 was quite a bit smaller than the PB12-nsd I had for awhile and compared them to.

There is also the Paradigm DSP series of subs, the 10" version's box is even smaller than the EP350/500 and does a reasonably good job for HT in fairly large rooms, not as good as the 12" Ep series but quite good IMO.

If size is a concern, you can pretty much scratch SVS's subs off your list. Especially their cylinders. My SVS PCi+ 20-39 looks very much like a carpet-covered water heater in the corner of the living room.

Guests don't usually notice my SVS PC-Ultra until I fire up my home theater. Then they just know it must be nearby.

It sits in the corner behind a fake ficus tree. Here's a link to a picture.

photobucket

That's the SVS "Waldo" model?

If it hasn't been mentioned, there is also the HSU ULF15.

Waldo? I wonder if I should be offended? No I guess not.

In some ways, that's less conspicuous than a chunky square shaped box.

The cylinder subs don't take much floor space. If they work in the room, they can almost disappear. My SVS PB-12 NSD is behind a chair that sits in the front of the room and is nearly invisible despite it's huge size.

Physics plays a large part in subs. The bigger they are, the more bass. The more power, the bigger the bass. So, small subs must be very powerful (expensive) to match a large sub that has less power.

That ED diy sub looks very interesting.

To the OP I had the M2's and a SVS 25-31pci and I felt I was missing some of the upper bass/midrange, moved up to the m22's and still feel I need something to blend better with the fronts. I have been looking at either going with floor speakers (m60s)something I can X at 50 or 60hrz or the HSU Mid Bass module. If you are willing to strech your budget to 1k the MBM and a sub is a killer combo. I too was afraid that upgrading my $100 sony sub to the svs wouldn't be that big of a upgrade I was way wrong.

Axiom should sell a fake ficus tree with every sub.

I'm not missing any upper bass/midrange with the Ultra blended to the M22. I set up the Ultra in 15Hs mode with room correction off. I did have to use the single stage equalization on the Ultra to tame bass centered around 60Hz and get a flatter overall response. I had to use correction tables for the SPL meter to adjust out it's response. I have the M22s crossed at 80 Hz so I'm not stressing them and the Ultra has plenty of output left after the equalization is applied.