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#268539 - 08/07/09 12:22 PM Simple sound treatment
mikeak Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 28
There are a ton of sources about acoustical treatment around, but all the ones I find are super complex. The fact is that I am not rebuilding my HT room . Not redoing the drywall etc -- it is what it is. What I am doing first (like next week...) is putting up a false wall to put the screen on.

What these complex resources did tell me is that I need to sound treat the front wall ie behind the false wall. I had honestly not thought of this, but it makes perfect sense. I am looking for something realtively affordable and readily available. I can't go with a specialty store that needs 3 weeks to manufacture and ship etc. Can anyone recommend something or a thread that gives you the "must-do" and "how-to" for simple sound treatment stuff.

After that I am looking for material readily available to build sound panels and besides the acoustic fabric in-front of the speakers that is going to be "all" that I do as start-up for the HT.

Am I missing something big that doesn't involve tearing down the walls? Am I missing something big that can't be done after everything else is installed? The panels, diffusers in the corners etc etc can all be installed after the fact so really not as concerned about those right now.

Thanks! And I did try posting this in the appropriate forum which led to a calculator that is really cool BUT way above what I am trying to do. There is something such as not perfect but good enough and I guess that is what I am trying to do

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#268574 - 08/07/09 04:53 PM Re: Simple sound treatment [Re: mikeak]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 6953
Loc: Canada
If you are building a false wall anyway, you can just use 3lb (or more dense) fiber or mineral board. These are the standard materials used in all the commercial pannels anyway. Owns corning 703 is one brand, but you might be able to find something less expensive. I used stuff from Ottawa Fibre that I found locally. Call around to building/construction supply places to see what you can find. As long as its 3lb/cu.ft. or more dense you're good.

Also, try posting your questions on this forum or this one
There are a couple of pros that hang out and give advice on both forums. They will help you keep it as simple as you want.


Edited by fredk (08/07/09 04:55 PM)
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#268580 - 08/07/09 06:40 PM Re: Simple sound treatment [Re: fredk]
mikeak Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 28
Thanks Fred.
So with the false wall I could simply attach these to the back of the studs ie the part that is towards the wall. That would be smart so the actual wall is undamaged if we ever go to sell.

I did look at Owens corning 703 but can't find it up here in Alaska so the 3.b/cu ft is great advice! Guessing that I either need to specify rigid fiberglass as well / or all rigid is 3lbs / cu ft.

Will check those forums out too - thanks. I did see the links here about corner traps etc and they are very useful. One of the threads had some nice panels on the walls with the Owens corning, but didn't see how the wall panels were built up so need to look at that as well

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#268583 - 08/07/09 09:05 PM Re: Simple sound treatment [Re: mikeak]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3820
Loc: Up yonder
You can get pannels in Anchorage. I forgot the name of the place where I got mine, but will get that info to you. I build corner base traps with the stuff. It's off International Drive.
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#268591 - 08/07/09 10:14 PM Re: Simple sound treatment [Re: michael_d]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13309
Loc: Iowa
Treatments are as follows, either bass traps that go in corners of rooms, which includes floor/wall and ceiling wall, if done correctly. However, most people start with the front and rear corners of a room which make a huge difference to your frequency graphs. Bass collects in corners of rooms, by addressing this you will flatten out the overall frequency to suprising results.

Secondly, you have FRZ's (first reflection zones) which are placed on the side walls and ceilings to tame the first reflection to the listener. Otherwise, the sound that arrives, direct and indirect, is skewed at your ears. To much treating is not good, but the above added to normal room furniture makes a huge difference.

I have never read about treating behind a false wall, at least on the reputable websites that know about this topic. I can't see why it would be worth your time.

Finally, using multiple subs in your room AND treating your room properly will result in a great outcome.
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#268595 - 08/07/09 10:54 PM Re: Simple sound treatment [Re: SirQuack]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Like Randy I’m wondering why you need to treat behind the false wall.

My screen “wall” only extends about 1/3 way across that end of the room the rest opens up into the dinning area. Rather than build a false wall I’m just making a wooden frame to hang the screen from. I don’t even plan to drywall it.

Now this is based on being able to pull my speakers out 3 1/2 feet or more from screen so even though there will be a wall close behind the right main there won’t be one for more than 10 feet behind the left and center but the soundstage is not effected.

More important in my room as Randy suggests are the corners (bass) and FRZs (front soundstage).
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#268607 - 08/08/09 01:33 AM Re: Simple sound treatment [Re: grunt]
mikeak Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 28
Well my reading told me that putting up fiberboards on the front wall and first reflection zones really made a difference. I looked at sirquacks thread and that looked super simple for something looking very very nice -- thanks for the good write-up

Just to explain. My front wall has a window and then a ledge that is 45 inches high. So i am going to cover the window with plywood for total blackout (no window sill so I can get it in there). Then I was going to do the false wall for two things 1) Hang the screen on and build it out in the corners and put the speakers there and basically frame in the screen if that makes sense.

Now two issues -- 1) if I do the bass traps in the corners then the speakers will be pretty darn close to them. Which is worse no bass traps or no space behind the speakers?

2) What material are you guys using up front around your screen? I guess the black material around the screen doesn't need to pass the "breathing test" -- you agree? If it does then how do you cover up behind so you don't see right through?

Thanks!

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#268608 - 08/08/09 01:36 AM Re: Simple sound treatment [Re: michael_d]
mikeak Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 28
 Originally Posted By: michael_d
You can get pannels in Anchorage. I forgot the name of the place where I got mine, but will get that info to you. I build corner base traps with the stuff. It's off International Drive.


Was it Mechanical Insulation Services Inc?

They want $3.25 per sq. ft if I don't find anything else I will get some there and keep looking for more

Or was it Uresco Construction Materials Inc -- just got an email back from an installer that said they carry Owens Corning


Edited by mikeak (08/08/09 01:40 AM)

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#268609 - 08/08/09 02:18 AM Re: Simple sound treatment [Re: mikeak]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
So you’re saying you are putting the fiberboard on the outside of the wall behind the speakers? If so that makes sense, sorry if I misunderstood it sounded like you wanted to put it inside the false wall which would help dampen outside sound some but not do much for interior reflections.

I’ve read and found from testing that if I keep the drivers of my M80s at least 3 1/2 feet or more from the wall the reflections don’t have any negative impact on the soundstage. OTHO putting temporary absorptive material at the first reflection points actually shrunk the soundstage making it seem less wide.

However if I put the speakers closer than about 3 1/2 feet from the wall, absorbing the first reflections improves the front soundstage. I’m assuming from your post you won’t be able to pull your speakers that far out.

 Quote:

1) if I do the bass traps in the corners then the speakers will be pretty darn close to them. Which is worse no bass traps or no space behind the speakers?


Well if having bass traps in the corners means no space behind your speakers then it sounds like your speakers will be “corner loaded” which will usually colour certain frequencies and reinforce some of the bass quite likely in ways you don’t want. So I would probably use bass traps up front as long as you can have a few inches between them and the rear ports on the speakers.

Not sure if your room is symetrical but if the front and back corners are similar you could make a pair for the back and also try them up front to see what effect that has on the speakers.

Personally I wouldn’t do everything all at once. I did that in my apartment and found out I did much more work than I needed to because I was going of theory and not listening to what was actually happening to the sound in my room. That’s why this time around I’ve spent 4 months moving speakers, furniture, wall coverings etc… around to see what effects it’s having before committing to anything. I’m very happy I have because I’ve already found I don’t need to absorb first reflections off my walls. I don’t need to build a full wall up front just a wooden frame to hang the screen on so the aluminum frame won’t sag. And that I don’t want thick fluffy furniture because it sucks the life out of the room (just killed the ambience). So before building a bunch of stuff you might want to start listening to your system moving and tweaking it as best you can. Perhaps use some temporary sound treatments (pillows, even mattresses can work) and see what effects you hear before deciding what will work best.

 Quote:

2) What material are you guys using up front around your screen? I guess the black material around the screen doesn't need to pass the "breathing test" -- you agree? If it does then how do you cover up behind so you don't see right through?


Right now I’m planning to use this for around my screen, it’s probably overkill but I want no reflected light other than my screen in my field of view.

http://www.fpi-protostar.com/flock.htm

If by “pass the breathing test” you mean acoustically transparent (AT) because you are putting your speakers behind the screen then yes you probably want it to also be AT material. However, if your speakers are going in front of the screen I wouldn’t worry about it.
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3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#268622 - 08/08/09 11:05 AM Re: Simple sound treatment [Re: mikeak]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3820
Loc: Up yonder
It was AIS off 56th street. The stuff they sell is not Owens Corning, some other brand. I looked up its density and found it comparable to Owen’s panels that you see recommended all over the net. They have both foil faced and un-faced. They are 24” X 48” panels. Not exactly cheap, but nothing is up here right?

I went through the same thing you are now. I asked a few questions, had conversations with the experts and ended up just knocking out corner traps to see if they would make an improvement or not. They did. If I ever get around to it, I plan on making a couple more panels. One will be hung from the ceiling and another will mount on a wall. Furniture and shelving take care of the other wall. My room is pretty small, so my M80 mains are pretty close the corner traps. The rear of the speakers are about 6” away from the traps. This thread has some pictures of how I built mine and what they look like in my room……

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=248931&fpart=2
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