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#291271 - 02/08/10 12:50 PM Re: M80V2 and Tube Amps......... [Re: alan]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
That once again backs up the statement: In well designed amps, the similarities between tube and solid state or class A, AB, and D are far greater than the differences.


I want someone to build a class D, tube amp just for fun. You'd just need a high frequency triangle wave generator, a comparator, power valves which could handle the switching frequency, and then some capacitors to act as rectification filters to remove the switching component of the signal. Although, I fear the frequencies required are beyond what tubes can handle.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#291280 - 02/08/10 01:51 PM Re: M80V2 and Tube Amps......... [Re: ClubNeon]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Club Neon, I think you'd have to worry about X Rays from a Class D switching tube amp.

Alan, you don't use a hearing aid do you? That might explain why you have never experienced the liquid midrange beauty of good tube amplification. I commend you for not referring to tube amplifiers as "distortion generators" as you have previously.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#291285 - 02/08/10 02:04 PM Re: M80V2 and Tube Amps......... [Re: 2x6spds]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17768
Loc: NoVA
No, it's not true! It's impossible! </whiney Luke Skywalker>
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#291327 - 02/08/10 05:11 PM Re: M80V2 and Tube Amps......... [Re: CV]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6390
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
 Originally Posted By: CV
:) Now that we have that mystery cleared up, what problem can we give you to solve?

I'm gonna get Congress to put this bitter partisan rancor aside and start working together for the betterment of the American people.


_________________________
"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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#291331 - 02/08/10 05:21 PM Re: M80V2 and Tube Amps......... [Re: medic8r]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
Your alter-ego gonna threaten them JP??
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#291344 - 02/08/10 09:33 PM Re: M80V2 and Tube Amps......... [Re: davidsch]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Hello Davidsch

Your post has been kicking around in my subconscious, so I figured I'd post to make it stop.

But, I digress ...

What got me thinking was your observation that the difference between the music from the Jolida and from the Denon was subtle, not immediately apparent, but rather a quality which sort of snuck up on you. I agree, although I think the difference is more noticeable with female vocals, classical music from strings or blowing air through a tube of some kind ...

I think the effect calls into question A/B testing. I say this because I think some effects are subtle and take time to evaluate.

BTW, if you need some tube power from an award winning amplifier, you might consider the Antique Sound Labs Hurricanes.



TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Output power:

Output impedance:
Input impedance:
Input sensitivity:
Frequency response:
Frequency response:
THD:
THD:
S/N:
Nominal Voltage gain:
Global NFB in dB:
Dimensions:
Shipping dimensions:
Net weight:
Shipping weight:
200 Watts (pentode/tetrode mode).
100 Watts (triode mode)
4, 8, 16 Ohms.
100kHz.
600mV
12 Hz – 41kHz. (At 1.0 Watt)
18Hz – 30kHz. (At full power)
0.3% (at 1 Watt)
5% at full power
88 dB (at full power)
50.46dB
(0)
350mm., 13 ¼” W X 350mm.,13 ¼” D X 325mm., 12 ½” H
470mm.,18 ½” W X 470mm.,18 ½” D X 450mm.,17 ½” H
38 kg., 84lbs.






 Originally Posted By: davidsch
 Originally Posted By: photonblur
Hello,

I know and love that the M80V2s suck mega watts of power in the
pursuit of that real sound. Occasionally I get wistful for
the vaguely remembered warmth of those old 70's tube amps.
As a qualified non-expert I thought a tube friendly speaker
would have a relatively stable, high impedance curve, not
dipping much below 3-4 ohms. Our beloved M80s do not fit this
criteria. Anyone have experience with a tube amp M80 combo?

Thanks,

PB





While I have not tried the M80s with a tube amp, I have tried the M60s with a 50 watt/channel Jolida 302B. I borrowed the amp from brother-in-law for about 6 weeks. At first I did not notice a difference, but after a couple of days it seemed as though the midrange was smoother. After returning the amp and putting my Denon back into service, I was disappointed in the sound. Now I did not take the time to do a double blind comparison so there will be plenty of skeptics but that is OK. I say give it a try if a dealer will loan you an amp for a few days. I will likely buy a tube amp at some point, but there always seems to be something more important to spend our money on. Welcome to the forum and stick around.

_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#291345 - 02/08/10 09:37 PM Re: M80V2 and Tube Amps......... [Re: 2x6spds]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10386
P, an insulting comment of that sort isn't helpful to the discussion. Tightly controlled double blind listening tests of the sort Alan described(with certainly eminent participants)have indicated that there is no necessary "tube sound" if the unit is correctly designed and operated within its designed limits. The frequency and/or distortion aberrations that would create a "warmth"("liquid" or dry)don't exist in units with high fidelity, regardless of the output device topology.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#291350 - 02/08/10 10:19 PM Re: M80V2 and Tube Amps......... [Re: JohnK]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4078
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
My biggest concern with using a tube amp with the M80's would be the issue of clipping.

From what I understand of the M80's design and their power handling capabilities, to get the most out of them especially in large rooms is to power them with a robust solid state amplifier.

Now as I type this I am listening to headphones powered by a tube amplifier. The sound is quite nice actually. However, I cannot attribute a "warmth" to the music in comparison to any other source/amp I have used with the multiple headphones I have. On the other hand it is very soothing listening to music in complete darkness and watching the tubes glow.

For the majority of tube amps on the market IMO they would be better paired with the Axiom bookshelf speakers (M2, M3, M22) in a small to medium sized room.
_________________________
I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#291355 - 02/08/10 11:06 PM Re: M80V2 and Tube Amps......... [Re: BlueJays1]
Lampshade Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1161
Loc: Holbrook, MA
I have two tube amps. A little one and a big one. I have a Denon AVR. The only reason I have never given the Denon away is that sometimes I like to hook it up and listen so I can remember why it is I don't use it.
It is a low end Denon to be fair.
_________________________
M3 and Manley Stingray
M80 and Pioneer SC 55

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#291356 - 02/08/10 11:11 PM Re: M80V2 and Tube Amps......... [Re: BlueJays1]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
Sure alot of absolute principles being tossed around in this thread. \:\)

Maybe we should take a closer look at the specs of the M80 again before talking about power requirements whether tube or SS. At 95db/91db/w/m the M80s are reasonably sensitive speakers that don't require much power to play at orchestra level volumes assuming normal listening room distances from the speakers. A 75 watt tube amp would not be stressed driving the M80s except at earsplitting peaks north of 105 db or very loud transients where the soft clipping of the tubes would be much more pleasant than the square wave distortions from SS clipping.

Whether one prefers the sound of tubes or SS is a matter of personal preference. Personally I've enjoyed the sound of the M80s with tubes as much as SS but that's just me. I wouldn't recommend using less than a 75 watt tube amp with the M80s but that would depend on your listening habits and room requirements.
_________________________
John

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