Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Home Theater advice needed.....

I am goign to be a new Axiom owner and will be ordering this Friday. I was going to get the Epic Grand Master 500. But I want to use prewired connections in my family room. They are in the ceiling about 15-18 inches away from the wall. I really want to get the Epic Grand Master 500 but my wife doesnt like the size of the M22's. So i wanted to know if replacing the M22's with the M3's would be a better idea. I want ot hang them from the ceiling with the brackets. Do i need to have the M3's in a bookshelf for them to be effective? Also i read in another thread that the QS8's sound just as good as the M22's. Has anybody used the Qs8's for all around speakers for a home theater. Any help would be appreciated. Also anytime i call Axioms 800 number nobody ever answers. Anybody else have the same problem?

It is best if your front 3 speakers, whether you go bookshelf or inwall/onwall, are at ear level when seated. You don't want sound directed down from the ceiling when the tv/projector screen is in front of you. The Q's are designed to be surround speakers and placed 2-3ft above you or higher. The "side" surrounds go to the "side" of you, and the "rear" surrounds, go behind you, or to the "rear". The Qs can be ceiling mounted with a variety of methods, and angled downward.

Depending on when you call the 800#, normally someone answers, however, it is possible they were on the phone talking to one of us, so just leave your name/number and they will call you back.

You will not want to use the QS8's for front speakers. They are made for surrounds only.

As randy pointed out you would benefit greatly from moving your front speakers down towards ear level and having the surrounds at maybe 2-3 feet above ear level when seated.

Also, what is the size of your room?

And how loud do you listen?

What types of program material?

Regarding the 800 number, Axiom is still a relatively small company. There are not "operators standing by"! In other words, don't hesitate to leave a message!

As an experiment (before I got M22s for my back room), I did try the QS8s as mains for fun. That did not sound good at all.

Lol, is there a speaker configuration that, between you and Grunt HASN'T been at least tried??? You two should get together and find out what using twin EP500's as left/right mains with an EP350 center sounds like!

You would need an Ep600 or Ep800 horizontal as center. Dual preferably.

Ah, so you've already thought this through I see. Don't worry, you may recieve some flack about them not being 'full range' speakers, yada yada... but I'm behind you all the way. I've always thought those frequencies above 150 hz were over rated anyway.

Thanks for the quick replies. So it would not be possible to mount the fronts in the ceiling and have them angled towards the seating area? I ask this mainly causeyou never see movie theaters with speakers at ear level. Also I forgot to mention that I was planning on mounting my LCD up on the wall. A little above eye level while seated. And my size room is about 10x10 with 3 walls and being open to the kitchen area. Also I didn't get a response in regards to the M3's compared to the M22's. What you guys respond in regards to ceiling mounts will help me with deciding on which ones to get. And is it possible to mount the M22's to the wall so it's flush or does it need room behind it?

You also never see movie theaters with just one set of mains and surrounds either, but the front channels are more centered on the wall than the surounds, they are not mounted to the ceiling are they? The surrounds are higher up but the system also runs mega watts and extreme loudspeakers, not quite what you get in a home system.

A suggestion. Cut out a piece of cardboard or some other template to be the size of the display you're getting. Hang it on the wall where you plan to place the TV. Sit, and look at it for 15+ minutes. It may seem a little silly to stare at a piece of cardboard for that time, but it'll let you know how your neck will feel after a viewing session.

Just a little above eye-level probably won't be a problem. But if you have to hold your head in an inclined position to look at the screen you could be in for some neck pain if you plan to spend a good amount of time watching the set.

Oh, and the speakers really should be as close to possible to the mid-line of the display. That'll make on-screen action seem to be coming from the screen. You don't see the main channel speakers in a movie theater at eye level, because you don't see them at all, they're behind the screen--aligned with the mid-line.

It sounds like you need to check out the W22 in/on wall speakers, or the M22 in wall flush mount speakers.

Albert, most theaters DONt have the front speakers on the ceiling either, they are front stage. The surrounds are lined along the side/rear walls.

Will it work, yes, is it following recommended Dolby/THX guidlines, no.

You want the sound to appear to come from the screen, not above your head.

Please check the product page, Axiom offers a variety of speakers, including onwall and inwall variations.

For small on wall speakers for HT only you could look into the M0's. I am not sure what your room size is though as I don't think these are intended for large rooms

Hi Albert and welcome,

In movie theaters, the main front speakers are in fact centered behind the acoustically transparent screen and given the rake (slope of theater seats) and position of the screen it does put the front left, center and right speakers at or slightly above ear level for seated audience members. The point is to anchor movie dialogue and principal action right at the screen. That is why in a home cinema you want the front and center speakers at roughly the same level as the screen or a bit lower down.

The surround speakers in cinemas line each side wall, usually four on each side and two at the rear of the cinema, all located about halfway up each side and rear wall.

Axiom's multi-directional QS8 surround speaker duplicate the immersive effect of 10 surround speakers used in large cinemas.

Regards,

It's funny you mention this, my fiancee works on a computer utilizing two screens. One sits right around eye level, and the other just slightly higher, and she always complains about her neck hurting when she uses the second one too much. I try to tell her to keep her head at the same angle while viewing each screen and simply tilt her eye's up while using the second sceen, as this is what I do... but it seems for most people this is more uncomfortable than tilting your head up, is that right?

Perhaps my eyes are just more flexable than most?

I have an LCD, most people mount them like a picture frame, I mounted mine like a TV stand 18 1/2" to 20" to the bottom of the screen. I purposely setup a room for viewing and not in the living room so the "picture" wouldn't be so low.

Appreciate all your guys quick responses. Much appreciated. Now it's time to ponder my project. I will post some pictures to get your opinions on what you recommend. Thanks again.

If you can, convince your wife that 22's are the way to go. I have the M3's cousin (outdoor speakers) and while they are fine speakers, I would always wonder what the 22's sounds like.

It's been my experience that most wives tend to forget about the speaker size once they get used to hearing everything.

One thing most guys don't consider. Universal remote. Invest in a good one (URC or Harmony One) so that everything can be automated.

Otherwise you'll get getting calls at work "OK, tv is on, and I hear things, but can't see anything.....why can't I just turn on the TV to watch TV?????" Consider yourself warned!

My wife likes the look of my m80's with the grills on but not off

Wives I know why they are neccessay, but in the AV equation, a bit of a pain

On the subject of the Universal Remote. My wife scoffed at yet another purchase when I decided to get one. She now says it is the best piece of equipment that we own. Before buying it, I would get calls at work exactly as Hansang has depicted.....

And what remote would this be? I have the Harmony 900? Best remote ever no rf range, do you know of a better one?

I have the Harmony 880. Does everything that we need with no RF.

It's certainly possible. It may not be optimal, but that's how some of us have to live. The M3s are quite good speakers; I think I may prefer the M22s. But I haven't heard them back to back, and I haven't heard them in the same environment.

The M22s actually appear much smaller in person (although I have M80s, so my perceptions may be a tad skewed.) The narrow grills help with this.

here is the viewing area. After discussing it with my wife thinking about moving that shelf to underneath the tv so the speakers can sit on them. Also building a media niche to house all the media components as well as movies and such. So the pre existing speaker wires already meet there so it's perfect.

Highly reflective room there, I would look to an area rug to go under the coffee table to tame some nasty reflections. The shelf above the TV works well for a center channel IMO, why not leave it? I would actually move it up a little more and angle the speaker down a little towards the listening positions as in it's current position you could be getting reflections off the top of the TV.

What do you mean by reflections? Sound reflections? Also the tv I want hanging just above eye level so the shelf will go underneath it

Jay is referring to sound reflections, Albert, esp off your nice hardwood floor there. Consider putting an area rug(I did this myself) in between your viewing area and your TV/front speakers, ie under your coffee table there, this will help stop reflected sound off of the floor which can 'muddy' the sound. This is because the reflected sound hits you slightly after the initial sound from your speakers.

Thanks for clarifying Adrian.

The shelf could still stay above the TV or do away with it entirely and mount the speaker directly to the wall. I would recommend trying the center channel out above and below the TV before making it a permanent position as it may sound better in one or the other position.

Yes, we all have. I couldn't tell you how many times I've been out somewhere and my fiancee texts me saying, "hey we want to watch a movie... what do I do"? It doesn't matter how many times I tell her what to do, it's still all Greek to her.

Have you ever looked inside a woman's purse, be it your mothers, your sisters or your wifes? You couldn't make heads or tails of the things in those bags if your life depended on it could you... and if you could, I'd advise you not to admit it. Well they have their purses, we have our HT remote controls.

If you do decide the M22s are too big, consider M2 in preference to M3, to substitute. I'm using M3s as fronts in one of my rooms, and have come to think it was a mistake not to get M2s instead, which match up better with other Axiom speakers.

This picture is me sitting down taking picture at eye level. You can see the flash where eye level is at.



Here is a photoshopped concept i did real quick to see what i could do. Let me know if you guys think it will be too high



Put the pictures evenly side by side to see if its too high on eye level. THanks.

Oh and i just ordered my speakers today. Purchased the Epic Grand Master 500 in black but changing the order to cherry. Tax return came 2 days sooner.

Also we were orignally thinking of black but my wife called and said she wanted the cherry color. Anybody know if it will mix well with our current color scheme?

In terms of universal remote, most fall into two major categories. URC and Harmony. I have Harmony 890 (Hated...it!) and MX900+MRF350 (LOVE IT).

Harmony is great in that it's *SO* simple to program and get the activities right. It also has state information so it knows what devices are on or off automatically. The price you pay for this simplicity is lack of complex macros. You're limited to seven or so steps and that's it. I only have experience with 890 and it's RF is not *that* great. I constantly have to hit buttons multiple times for it to register. That my have something to do with **TINY** buttons/keys on the remote.

URC's MX900 (old model now) is a little more complicated to program, but it's not rocket science. And you get UNLIMITED control over every action. I like the fact that you can make the receiver your "master sound source" so that all sound related functions (mute, vol+/- etc) defaults to the receiver no matter where you are. I like the fact that you can create state information for any function. For example, my SUBTTL macro turns on or off the subtitle depending on whether it was on or off. If it's on, it turns it off and vice versa. It's important because my settop box has three options, SUBTITLE ON, Off, On with mute. So I need to know what it was set at. Finally, MRF350 comes with an IR sniffer mode so that you can find a spot with the least interference.

I posted some shots of the programming/button layout but I couldn't get it to show up inline (just the URL's showed up)

Oh, one more thing. Harmony has accelerometers built in so the backlighting will come on automatically. But it also uses custom rechargeable batteries. I much prefer the four AAAs that go into my MX900 (light button is manual and on the side of the remote).

Your shopped photo is higher than I like. I like the center (roughly) of the TV to be on eye level.....YMMV

I agree, plus consider a lower level for your mains so that their tweeters are approximately at ear level. Tweeter are very directional. The way your mains are in your original picture, it looks like the left speaker is firing directly into the chair/ottoman. Maybe not, but if so, not so good. Getting the speakers up a bit so their sound line is above the big sound sponge, may sound better.

Hi,

I agree with Argon. The photoshopped screen is too high. I'd find that annoying after a while.

And yes, tweeters are directional, but the dispersion of Axiom's tweeters is sufficiently good that there is some leeway in terms of the "exactly at ear level" rule, so they can be a bit lower down or higher up to accommodate the requirements of a specific room.

One of the appealing aspects of bookshelf size speakers, either bracket-mounted or on-/in-wall, is that they allow you some adjustment of "soundstage height".

You cannot easily do that with floorstanding speakers.

Regards,
Alan

How about Axiom make some short, sturdy stands to accommodate the floor standing series. It has been stated by several people that getting the M80s a "cinder block" height off the floor does improve their listening experience.

Hmmmm... the theory is valid, however I'd think M80's on some of those metal stands would look rather strange. What might look good would be stands made to look like an extention of the speaker, so that when screwed into the bottom of the M80, it looked like a taller version of the M60. I've always liked the way the M60 looks actually, and if they made some 'bottoms' that matched the same finish and everything, I'd probably look into buying something like that. The seam might look a bit distracting though, so perhaps if it flaired out a bit from the bottom of the speaker to the floor it would look more natural... I dunno, just brain storming a bit.

I found that tilting the front of the speaker up just slightly (I put two spacers under the front feet, no spacers under the back feet) gave me better performance. Now the top tweeter is firing just above my head while the bottom tweeter is directed right at ear level. Before the top tweet was at ear level while the bottom tweet fired at my chin.

I'd be very worried about tippy-ness with any stand of the same width under the M80s. They're already a touch precarious.

Just hang them from the ceiling.
Height and wobble problem... solved.
Paying for divorce lawyer problem... begins.

Maybe something like the stand built into the Revel Salon2s? http://www.revelspeakers.com/images/gallery/salon2_421.jpg It actually looks to make the speaker more stable. (When I brought these speakers up before, someone complained that the stand is not removable. It's due to the fact that the speaker is bottom-ported. The stand is part of the over-all design.)

My speakers got shipped today! And this past weekend I was able to rip out walls run wires to get my media niche ready and mount my tv. My media niche should be done by this weekend! Will post pictures when it's all done.

Can't wait!

Sounds exciting!

Got my speakers today! Unfortunately media niche isn't in place yet but hopefully I get it done by today.

sweet! What finish did you get?

That's a lovely sight, isn't it?

So you got a VP150?

It's funny, that picture involks a lot of emotion doesn't it? Brings you right back to the day we all had a pile of box's like that sitting on our door step. And the flutters we had in our chests when we first saw them, like five year olds on Christmas morning.

I can still remember opening the very first box, one of my QS8's, and gasping at the weight of that little sucker. I was really impressed by how well put together the QS8's were, and the sheer weight of them made my expectations of how they'd sound go through the roof!

They did not disappoint.

Indeed my poor wife had to bring them inside. I got the Boston cherry finish. I was thankful it was not as red as it shows on the website. Ran into a problem of stripping the screws that came with the ceiling brackets so I gotta redo that.

Did you photoshop that picture? Those boxes don't look banged up nearly enough.

Congrats and enjoy.

Ha! I had the same thing happen to me with the wall brackets for my M22s. I went to the hardware store, totally frustrated...HOW CAN SOMEONE MESS UP SCREWING A BRACKET INTO THE WALL??? I guess the provided screws must be a little on the cheap side because I bought some cabinet screws and everything worked out like it was supposed to!

Ok. Here is the almost entire setup.


Initial tearing of walls and running wires.


Main Wires being run


Close up of the amount of wires i run. Had to drill two seperate 1" holes just to squeeze them in.


Patched and textured. All thats needed is paint


Finished Wall and just waiting for speakers


Finally mounted speakers and tv.....seeing the size of this one....i am thinking of replacing it with a 65" plasma.


Close up of speakers hugging the tv


Photo of ceiling mounted QS8's. althought I do have one question. Can any of you recommend a specific angle to put the QS8 for this kind of seating.


Closer picture of left QS8


Closer picture of right QS8

I was hoping to post pictures with my media niche done.....but my brother in law who was making it for me. Screwed up and we are redoing it. Hopefully this is what it will look like but in place of a tv. It will be shelves for my media components.



Here is a house for sale with my exact floorplan but just flipped around. Thats how i am goign to have my media niche done.

Also i have an Onkyo TX-SR606 7.1 Channel Home Theater Receiver, Directv HD DVR, and PS3. Any suggestions to make the sound perfect would be extremely helpful. Thanks.

I love wood, and do not have a designer gene, however, I suggest you don't tell the wife that the speakers come in maple or egg shell white.

Your set up is elegant, your furniture looks darn comfy and your system looks like it sounds great. I like your wiring (dedicated lines?) I agree, your room could easily accommodate a 65" or 73" plasma.

Beautiful. Enjoy it in good health.

Yeah i had already showed here the other finishes and she picked those. I wanted black but she wanted the boston cherry. Thansk for the comments

Have you looked into projectors? That wall would be an excellent candidate for a 140 inch screen!

But if light is an issue then at least a 65 inch LCD needs to be hanging up there. I'm just saying, if you got it, flaunt it.

Yeah projection isn't going to happen since I have a huge window to that room. So I gotta go with a plasma. But I been debating because I really like the 120hz feature of my LCD but I hear that he plasma 600hz is different. All iCard about is clarity and smoooooth motion.

The high refresh rates of the new LCDs were designed to eliminate a problem which never existed with plasma, mostly blurring of high motion objects.

But because they've got these high refreshes some manufacturers have gone to interpolating in between frames to try to make things look smoother. These false frames seem totally unnatural to me (and many others), and disable this feature to have the set only display those frames which are actually present in the original data. Some plasmas have frame interpolation, but not to the same extent that LCDs do. So if you're looking for that super-smooth, but false, "soap opera" look, then maybe a LCD is better suited to you.

well...what i care about is not seeing blocks during the motion phase. I am hoping that plasmas will do decent job because i really do like the motion flow.

On another note. I think nobody noticed my question so i will post it here. On the pictures i have posted of my rears. I have a 9 foot ceiling. I have teh QS8's level. Should i angle them at a 45 degree angle or what should i do?

Albert, don't know what previous question that you're referring to, but the side surround QS8s should generally be positioned about 2-4' above ear level, and no, they shouldn't be angled downward. The idea is to have the surround sound coming from above.

Plasma's are known for their film-like picture quality, so you shouldn't have any problems with motion-blur. I've yet to hear any plasma owner complain about motion blur.

AFAIK screen type has no impact on pixilation or Macro blocking. The source material and video processor effect this. LCD motion blur is exactly that blurring not blocking. So if you’re having problems with blocking you need to look at upgrading the source material and or video processor (which changing HDTV might or might not do).

Also keep in mind that most if not all plasmas and some LDCs have very reflective screens. If you have lots of windows at the wrong angles they may reflect off the screen.

I’m not trying to talk you out of getting a plasma I prefer their PQ over LDC but just trying to point out some of the limitations you mighty be looking at.

Also, there shouldn’t be any need to angle the QS8s down. I do however find that having them angled on the horizontal plane so that neither of the tweeters is pointing directly at a listener helps diffuse the sound a little better especially if they are close to the seating, but it’s not a huge deal.

If you're seeing blocking during high motion, the source is likely at fault, and no display is going to fix that.

What are you watching when you see these blocks? If it's cable, then you're out of luck. Some DVDs also show macro blocking, but to a lesser extent. Blu-ray is thankfully block-free (except for a few rare, poorly encoded titles).

I appreciate the help fellas and I guess I miscommunicated when I said blocking. More of blurring than anything. I guess plasma it is then. Which plasma manufacture offers the smoothest motion?

In regards to the QS8's. I am a little confused i get two different suggestions or unless I am misunderstanding. Angling down or no angling or just slight angle to make it not so direct.

The Pixel response time blur of LCDs does not effect plasmas so in that respect all plasmas should be the same.

Another common type of blur you will encounter is when converting film to digital HDTV and projector displays which can also appear as motion judder or moving images seeming to jump rather than move smoothly. This is compensated for by “Motion or Frame Interpolation.” Various manufactures have different success at doing this w/o introducing artifacts like the “soap opera” effect where the picture looks hyper real like it’s shot with a video camera. Reducing this type of blur may actually change the intended appearance the director wanted so some people hate it. I find it’s useful in moderation in some movies so being able to set the level of frame interpolation is IMO important.

As far as positioning the QS8s. The angle I’m talking about is the side-to-side angle so that the tweeters aren‘t pointed directly at someone. I’ve found no benefit to angling my QS8s down. Also, the higher up the QS8s are placed the less advantage I’ve found to not having a tweeter pointed directly at a person.

Excellent. Thanks again. Just finished watching "The Patriot" with my bro inlaw. Very satisfied so far. The EP500 is crazy!

Oh and by the way my setup is DirecTV is set to 1080i/p on certain movies. Also all i watch is blu ray movies through my PS3 of course set to 1080p.

Sweet, glad you're enjoying them!