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IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
#294142 02/27/10 04:52 AM
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Denver Post

Longmont Times-Call

Daily Camera

The actual indictment is linked in the longmont link above.

I’ve followed the issues with AV123 for some time out of a sense of Schadenfreude for the former AV123 fanboys commiserating with each other on various forums. So I figured I’d post this for anyone who’s interested and doesn’t get around much.

Also, should Axiom feel this post/thread or any part of it is inappropriate in any way I would not construe deletions of parts or it’s removal as inappropriate censorship of any kind.

Mainly I wanted to use this development to punctuate something I’ve been thinking about for a long time and use it as an opportunity to talk about things people, especially those new to online audio purchases, might learn from the warning signs that I saw in AV123 over 3 years ago causing them to not even make my long list and why Axiom despite it’s detractors got my business.

Use your intuition. If it sounds to good to be true it just might be. This should be a big red flag saying you should do more in depth checking.

Be suspicious of over-the-top testimonials from owners. If something really is a game changer everyone would be reviewing it, the other manufacturers would all be scrambling to make their own version and none would be in stock because of all the demand. Hell just ignore most posts in internet forums until you’ve read enough of someone’s posts to get a feel if they are blowing smoke up you’re a$$. BTW a big row of green “Chiclets” doesn’t mean their opinion is worth a crap nor does their post count. If you really want to validate what an internet forum denizen is saying use the “find other post by” feature to check up on other things they’ve said. OTOH, make positive note of forums where people promote a competitors products like when I first posted an interest here.

Be suspicious of testimonials/reviews that are 100% positive. Nothing is perfect, and to meet certain price points trade-offs are needed. While some of these trade-offs might be indistinguishable for most users a good professional reviewer should find them.

Be suspicious of owners who spend huge amounts of time in internet forums promoting their products.

Just because your friend/relative swears buy the company doesn’t mean they really know a damm thing about it.

Look for third party measurements.

Look for multiple independent reviews of the same product/company.

Lookup the companies owners. Doesn’t hurt to know what the owners track record is.

In some cases traditional recourses like the BBB might help. Alternatively some counties have court records online so you can check to see if the company or it’s owners have been sued by any customers or criminal charges have been filed against them.

Established companies are safer than new ones. Doesn’t mean not to consider a new startup just that w/o a track record who knows if they’ll be in business long enough to service the warranty on the first item the sold.

Companies with a capital investment in research/production facilities are likely a safer investment than those who contract out everything acting more like a buyers club.

Be suspicious of high MSRPs with routine sales of 30% or more off on continuing products. Steep discounts on new items to get them out and talked about or to clear out old models to make room for new ones can make sense. However, routine big discounts on continuing stock says two things. The MSRP is over inflated and the company doesn’t respect it’s customers.

In some cases traditional recourses like the BBB might help. Alternatively some counties have court records online so you can check to see if the company or it’s owners have been sued by any customers or criminal charges have been filed against them.

This certainly is not an exhaustive list so please add things you have learned about shopping on for audio or any other products online.


Last edited by grunt; 02/27/10 05:15 AM.

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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294143 02/27/10 05:13 AM
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Lot's of good advice there, Dean.


Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Adrian #294144 02/27/10 05:36 AM
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Excellent advice Grunt. The warning signs with this company has been there for years.
This is going to be a stain on this industry and is unfortunate for reputable companies like Axiom and others.


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #294146 02/27/10 05:56 AM
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I agree, and especially if this sort of thing gets out into the wild and not just forums haunted by us nut-jobs. I admit I was very leery shopping for $1,000s in speakers online having never even made an online purchase before. OTOH I have a pretty good BS detector and relied on it considerably. Unfortunately many people are to trusting so I was hoping to make something positive of this by collecting advice on smart online audio shopping in one place. And not just the “what speaker should I buy stuff.”

The other thing that got me thinking about this is another hyper popular online company that just went through some internal drama. That company has set off my warning flags on several occasions but increasingly more people are popping up asking about it’s products. Like someone at AVS said today that there are so many reputable speaker companies out there with impeccable records why take the risk. Well greed and feeling like you’re getting a “smokin” deal are powerful motivators that seem to inhibit cognition.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294148 02/27/10 06:14 AM
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I hadn't heard the news, so thanks for the links. I had considered AV123 for a short time when I first started researching an audio upgrade, but for whatever reason they lost out to Axiom. Even after I started building my system around Axiom's speakers, I still thought I might try one of their products at some point. Then I kept hearing about issues, so they kind of fell off my radar. I'm sorry to hear what has transpired.

Nice compilation of advice, Dean. I can't think of anything off-hand to contribute, but I'll say that I'm definitely guilty of not always researching enough. At least now I have this forum to come to whenever I want to parade my ignorance around in the form of a question. This place really is my most valuable resource as far as potential purchases.

Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294149 02/27/10 06:17 AM
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Thanks for the link Dean. I think I know at least one of the people behind this. There were some VERY POed people when they found out their money did not go where it was supposed to.

Frankly, I'm surprised that AV123 has not imploded completely. Like you, my BS meter went into overtime when this company was quite popular.


Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
fredk #294150 02/27/10 06:36 AM
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When I was speaker shopping I quickly made a decision not to ask anyone “what speakers should I buy” since in any forum the answer was always the same from the same people. My first post concerning speakers was more a reality check and to test the water. I had already made up my mind on an Epic 80 system but was torn between the EP500 and EP600. At this point it was Axiom and the forums sale to lose. But both passed the test with flying colours. Forum member openly suggested other brands of subwoofers and that I probably didn’t need rear speakers. Axiom talked me down from the EP600 to the EP500 and also suggested I wouldn’t need rear speakers.

Both the responses confirmed what I already suspected, that Axiom was a reputable company. Both by allowing forum member to openly suggest competitors products and also talking me out of buying something.

Fred, I’m also surprised they are still on there feet.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294151 02/27/10 06:46 AM
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Interesting news.

I should also speak up for these forums. This board has to one of the most democratic vendor forums out there. Many Axiom fans and owners are more than happy to recommend non-Axiom brands w/ real life experience. Very hard to find that for ANY kind of product forum out there.

Heck, I thank guys like Sushi and Craigsub who pointed me here years ago. Definitely a breath of fresh air from places like AVS. I also like to see the variety of posts in the Water Cooler section where many of us post questions about off topics like TV and washing machines, etc. Where else can you find that kind of trust in an online community? I say kudos to this board for that.

Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
oldskoolboarder #294154 02/27/10 07:29 AM
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 Quote:
When I was speaker shopping I quickly made a decision not to ask anyone “what speakers should I buy” since in any forum the answer was always the same from the same people.

You're not my long lost twin brother are you? I spent at least 3 weeks searching online and reading before I settled on a forum to post on. I never asked what "speaker should I buy?" for pretty much the same reasons.

I also like to read multiple posts by someone before considering their advice.

 Quote:
This board has to one of the most democratic vendor forums out there.

It really is. Thats why I continue to hang out here. That and Medic8r's lunch reports.


Fred

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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
fredk #294156 02/27/10 07:32 AM
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If I am you’re twin I’m the “slow” one. I spend at least 3 months searching before I settled on a brand/forum to try.

I’m just here for the pictures Cam posts. ;\)


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294157 02/27/10 07:46 AM
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Am I the only one here to annoy people?

Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
CV #294158 02/27/10 07:59 AM
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I’m pretty sure I annoy certain people, does that count?


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
CV #294159 02/27/10 08:09 AM
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I really don't know what to say here. I've been an AV123 customer since 2005. I think they make wonderful products(when working---just don't rely on those amps ;\) ) I am saddened, but not surprised by the news.

If you got room for one more on your team let me know. \:\)


*Michael*
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
richeydog #294160 02/27/10 08:29 AM
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Funny I had only just noticed a month ago that you were a member over at AV123 when I happened to be lurking over there. Looks like you’ve been here a lot longer than most of us so I’m not sure who should be inviting whom to the party. I got a kick out of your new avatar over there, I just saw it earlier.

I’ve read good reviews of many of there products from people who’s opinions I’ve come to respect. While I admit a certain sadistic satisfaction watching some of the most rabid fanboys get their comeuppance I would hate to see the company fail. Many people deserve the products owed to them and no one in the AV customer community wins by reducing competition. However, it’s hard to see them weathering this storm considering the already bad economy, their subwoofer problems and now the goodwill they are bound to loose over this. MLS and his hardcore fanbase were IMO a driving force in the companies success, hard to see how that continues unless maybe he wins the court case or it gets thrown out. Maybe it can re-brand itself but I’m not sure the present business model is going to be viable for them.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294161 02/27/10 08:43 AM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt
Funny I had only just noticed a month ago that you were a member over at AV123 when I happened to be lurking over there. Looks like you’ve been here a lot longer than most of us so I’m not sure who should be inviting whom to the party. I got a kick out of your new avatar over there, I just saw it earlier.

I’ve read good reviews of many of there products from people who’s opinions I’ve come to respect. While I admit a certain sadistic satisfaction watching some of the most rabid fanboys get their comeuppance I would hate to see the company fail. Many people deserve the products owed to them and no one in the AV customer community wins by reducing competition. However, it’s hard to see them weathering this storm considering the already bad economy, their subwoofer problems and now the goodwill they are bound to loose over this. MLS and his hardcore fanbase were IMO a driving force in the companies success, hard to see how that continues unless maybe he wins the court case or it gets thrown out. Maybe it can re-brand itself but I’m not sure the present business model is going to be viable for them.


Yeah Dean I've been a member at Axiom since May 04'. I've got you beat. \:D

For those who don't know, I bought my first pair of internet speakers(M22's) from here. It was a gamble not knowing what to expect but I was delighted by them. I then foolishly caught the upgrade bug and sent them back to Axiom in exchange for a pair of M60's, which I kept for 8+ months. Not very long I know. lol

In retrospect maybe I should have kept those M22's and built a system around them...

You are probably right about the current AV123 business model. I don't see how they can continue to keep their head above water with the recent news. This is the internet after all. Word travels fast.

Last edited by richeydog; 02/27/10 09:04 AM.

*Michael*
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Denon AVR-591
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
richeydog #294162 02/27/10 09:01 AM
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 Originally Posted By: richeydog

In retrospect maybe I should have kept those M22's and built a system around them.


When I got a pair of M22s to try out as surround back speakers I felt the same way about my M80s wish I had just gotten the M22s instead, but since by that point I had 3 M80s so I figured it was too late. Even though I chose to use the QS8s as rears I just couldn’t send the M22s back. Now that I’m in the house and can turn up the volume I appreciate the M80s a lot more and use them for a lot of my 2ch listening.

Yeah, I just saw a link that USA Today picked it up though it’s just a tiny blurb.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
CV #294166 02/27/10 01:40 PM
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 Originally Posted By: CV
Am I the only one here to annoy people?

Helloooooo?

Sitting right heeeeere! \:\)


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294167 02/27/10 01:43 PM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt

Many people deserve the products owed to them and no one in the AV customer community wins by reducing competition.


I don't see this at all. Actually the complete opposite. Business's that defraud consumers, have consistent quality isssues and deliver late to their customers simply don't deserve to be in business. Its actually a disservice to consumers to promote or support them.

While the market structure probably could be best described as monopolistic, aggressive pricing might attract some consumers away from the competition, however it should have little overall effect on the competitive behaviour of other fims and market demand because their market power is low relative to the entire industry.

My view is they should fail, which could allow the possibility of other companies (that are reputable) to enter the market.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #294170 02/27/10 02:14 PM
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Yeah, Mark, I saw you sitting right there \:\)

Of course as careful as you can be - I joined in July '04 after a friend recommended Axiom - there are no guarantees. I bought my Big Screen TV from a reputable B&M rather than going with cheaper internet alternatives.......Circuit City.


"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Churchill
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294180 02/27/10 04:42 PM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt
I’m just here for the pictures Cam posts. ;\)

Does that make Cam the unofficial Axiom pimp? Its time to go hat shopping Cam...


Fred

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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
fredk #294182 02/27/10 05:22 PM
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Makes ya wonder if other off shoot companies of AV123 will be looked at and or be having troubles.


Rick


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Wid #294183 02/27/10 05:30 PM
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To the best of my knowledge, the only companies connected in any fashion with AV123 are Perpetual technologies and the Graham Company. But those are not offshoots, they are owned by Mark Schifter. I think he was maybe starting another company with Arnie Neudel (sp?) to produce the RSL II speakers, but I don't know if that actually happened. Did you have a specific company you believe to be an offshoot in mind, Rick?


Jack

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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ajax #294184 02/27/10 05:31 PM
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No, I didn't Jack.


Rick


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Wid #294185 02/27/10 05:35 PM
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Wow.

I've almost ordered some low-end AV123 speakers several times, when they'd go on super-sale. Just because I was curious about them. Never did. I never felt like I really knew what was going on. Didn't feel 'right'. Too much weirdness with certain speakers being available, or not available, or the status of shipping, where in the world is MLS, etc, etc.

Crazy! I guess I'll have to wander over to AV123's forums and watch the crisis unfold. My money's on this being the end for AV123. Even if Mr Schiffler is found innocent, word-of-forum is critical for an online-only vendor. The trust is gone.

I wonder what ramifications this will have for Emotiva. I know that Emotiva isn't part of AV123 anymore, but I think they used to be. I wonder if they'll get caught up in this. Or if this is perhaps why Emotiva broke off from AV123...


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Wid #294186 02/27/10 05:42 PM
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 Originally Posted By: wid

Makes ya wonder if other off shoot companies of AV123 will be looked at and or be having troubles.


From reading the indictment this is a Schifter and AV123 issue. Now this doesn't even include any tax evasion (federal/state). It is most certain this company will be investigated thoroughly but beyond that who knows. If you have followed the issues with this company over the years and owner/president etc go well beyond the alleged raffle fraud.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
PeterChenoweth #294189 02/27/10 05:53 PM
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 Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth

I wonder what ramifications this will have for Emotiva. I know that Emotiva isn't part of AV123 anymore, but I think they used to be. I wonder if they'll get caught up in this. Or if this is perhaps why Emotiva broke off from AV123...


I believe they are two separate entities and have been for some time now. There has been some recent drama that I have been reading about with a disgruntled employee and disgruntled customers with one of their new products. Totally unrelated to anything av123. Emo I get red flags about personally and IMO would never purchase anything from them, but in no way co-orrelate them to av123


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #294190 02/27/10 05:54 PM
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Jack are you sure you're not really Nostradamus?


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #294191 02/27/10 06:21 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Dr.House


I believe they are two separate entities and have been for some time now. There has been some recent drama that I have been reading about with a disgruntled employee and disgruntled customers with one of their new products. Totally unrelated to anything av123. Emo I get red flags about personally and IMO would never purchase anything from them, but in no way co-orrelate them to av123


No kidding! I hadn't been over to the Emotiva forums for a few weeks. Got a couple of weird forum messages from it yesterday and found the forums locked down. And today, wow. Too much drama. What a day in my small little world of audio forums!


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
PeterChenoweth #294197 02/27/10 07:02 PM
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 Originally Posted By: fredk

Does that make Cam the unofficial Axiom pimp? Its time to go hat shopping Cam...


Might want to ask Teri what she thinks about that analogy. ;\)


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294209 02/27/10 07:25 PM
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Wow, I just read the links and the thread.

If the articles are true, that Mark fella ain't nothing more than low life thief and he'll do it again.


Rick
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294210 02/27/10 07:28 PM
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Probably not much. Time for a second cup of coffee...


Fred

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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
RickF #294212 02/27/10 07:30 PM
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Ya know, assuming Mark is guilty, AV123 still made decent products. I've heard and seen some of them. They sounded pretty good (I'm biased towards Axiom, of course), and they looked gorgeous.

Now, this was before the MLS debacle, so maybe things changed.

At least while he was allegedly defrauding his community and customers, he wasn't making really shoddy products.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
fredk #294215 02/27/10 07:33 PM
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Though it might be cool to see Cam “Pimp his Ride.”

I can see it now "'Cutter Cam' and the “Starship Enterpoop.”

Dated myself there didn’t I. ;\)



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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294217 02/27/10 07:35 PM
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Right on!


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ken.C #294221 02/27/10 07:41 PM
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 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Ya know, assuming Mark is guilty, AV123 still made decent products. I've heard and seen some of them. They sounded pretty good (I'm biased towards Axiom, of course), and they looked gorgeous.

Now, this was before the MLS debacle, so maybe things changed.

At least while he was allegedly defrauding his community and customers, he wasn't making really shoddy products.


I heard the Rockets once and thought they sounded good but didn’t like the rolled off highs compared to the M80s. Bass also didn’t sound as good but in fairness it wasn’t an A/B comparison and not even in the same rooms.

OTOH, there was a lot of spin going on in the AV123 community when Stereophile measured the Rockets to nowhere near the specs claimed by the manufacture. Can't find any links or I’d post them. Still doesn’t mean the speakers didn’t sound good and look very nice.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294222 02/27/10 07:42 PM
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Ah, I didn't know about that.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ken.C #294223 02/27/10 07:44 PM
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I recall that.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ken.C #294224 02/27/10 07:53 PM
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 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Ya know, assuming Mark is guilty, AV123 still made decent products. I've heard and seen some of them. They sounded pretty good (I'm biased towards Axiom, of course), and they looked gorgeous.

Now, this was before the MLS debacle, so maybe things changed.

At least while he was allegedly defrauding his community and customers, he wasn't making really shoddy products.


That's the baffling part Ken. I once worked for a guy who did something similar, lost a heck of a business because he just had to have that little extra.


Rick
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294226 02/27/10 08:06 PM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt
I heard the Rockets once and thought they sounded good but didn’t like the rolled off highs compared to the M80s. Bass also didn’t sound as good but in fairness it wasn’t an A/B comparison and not even in the same rooms.

OTOH, there was a lot of spin going on in the AV123 community when Stereophile measured the Rockets to nowhere near the specs claimed by the manufacture. Can't find any links or I’d post them. Still doesn’t mean the speakers didn’t sound good and look very nice.


Are you talking about the Rocket 750's? The were the flagship speaker several years ago???


*Michael*
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
richeydog #294228 02/27/10 08:15 PM
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 Originally Posted By: richeydog
Are you talking about the Rocket 750's? The were the flagship speaker several years ago???

Those are the ones. The Strata minis did not quite measure the same as the reviews either.

On the other hand, the things that the 'Axiom Fanboys' posted were backed up by the NRC measurements: flat frequency response, lower than average distortion measurements, good off axis HF response...


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
fredk #294229 02/27/10 08:23 PM
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 Originally Posted By: richeydog

Are you talking about the Rocket 750's? The were the flagship speaker several years ago???


Yes I’m pretty sure it was the 750 I listened to, and it was about 3 years ago. I had already passed my demo period on my first Axiom order and decided to keep them but had a morbid curiosity about the Rockets and wanted to be able to make “semi” informed comments when a fanboy would pop into an Axiom thread at AVS or Audioholics claiming how crappy the Axiom sounded compared to AV123. Though it was only a few of them who did this it was quite common back then.

Turned out to be a pointless exercise in the end as I tired of trying to help people pick speakers since it became obvious that most people asking which speakers to buy either already knew what they wanted and were looking for validation or just wanted someone to tell them what sounded “best.”

As I’ve mentioned before I did like there sound and they did look impressive. However, I found early on I prefer the “brighter” sound of speakers like B&W, Focal and well Axiom. I don’t even like the roll-off of the standard Audyssey EQ curve.

EDIT: Not sure if those are the ones Steriophile measured or if it was a newer model.

Last edited by grunt; 02/27/10 08:26 PM.

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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294233 02/27/10 08:50 PM
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Grunt, is this the review you are referring to?

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/305rocket/index4.html


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #294235 02/27/10 08:59 PM
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Yow. That does explain why I didn't like the Bigfoot I heard very much at all. The mains were much better.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #294236 02/27/10 09:00 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
Grunt, is this the review you are referring to?

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/305rocket/index4.html

That may be what he is referring to. If not, it gives a pretty accurate result of the 750's when fed a signal.

The newer rocket's (850's, 450's, RSC200 aka bigfoot)designed/redesigned by Danny Richie, are much better in that regard. Their measurements are way flatter than the 750's.

Rocket Loudspeakers


*Michael*
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
richeydog #294237 02/27/10 09:03 PM
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Is there any third party measurements for the Rockets you refer to?


Rick


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ken.C #294238 02/27/10 09:04 PM
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 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Yow. That does explain why I didn't like the Bigfoot I heard very much at all. The mains were much better.

I didn't like bigfoot either when I bought it in 2006. It seemed a bit edgy and harsh on certain material. As i mentioned above, the crossover was redesigned by Danny and I sounds loads better. I personally attest to that since I installed the new version a few years ago.


*Michael*
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Wid #294239 02/27/10 09:04 PM
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No that’s not the article but it does bring up another issue with AV123 speakers I wasn’t thinking about which was the crossovers. Not sure as the reviewer above commented if it wasn’t more likely QC issues (probably from the crossover manufacture) than a design issue. Which also dovetails with the other electronics QC issues that have plagued AV123s electronics offerings even before the MFW-15 amp problems. It’s my understanding that the Ninja got his business going making after market crossovers for AV123 speakers because of the often inconsistent quality crossovers in them.

The article I read was talked about was posted on Steriophile specifically.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Wid #294241 02/27/10 09:05 PM
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 Originally Posted By: wid

Is there any third party measurements for the Rockets you refer to?

Sorry Rick I don't have any. If you can find some I would like to see them. \:\)


*Michael*
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294242 02/27/10 09:08 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Richeydog

I didn't like bigfoot either when I bought it in 2006. It seemed a bit edgy and harsh on certain material. As i mentioned above, the crossover was redesigned by Danny and I sounds loads better. I personally attest to that since I installed the new version a few years ago.


That supports what I was reading in various forums as the crossover issues seemed to go away after the redesign.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294243 02/27/10 09:10 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Richeydog

I didn't like bigfoot either when I bought it in 2006. It seemed a bit edgy and harsh on certain material. As i mentioned above, the crossover was redesigned by Danny and I sounds loads better. I personally attest to that since I installed the new version a few years ago.


That’s funny I always want to hear the Bigfoot since it was so well regarded by many. The guy who’s Rockets I demoed didn’t have a Bigfoot.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
richeydog #294244 02/27/10 09:15 PM
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Yeah, I'm guessing it was around 2006ish.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294246 02/27/10 09:18 PM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt
That supports what I was reading in various forums as the crossover issues seemed to go away after the redesign.

Definitely. It got to the point were I didn't want to listen to it anymore. I was focusing on the negative aspects of the speaker instead of enjoying the sound. The new crossover alleviated those issues.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
richeydog #294249 02/27/10 09:23 PM
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This all brings up another thing that always bothered me about AV123’s business model which was the shear number of different offerings, and redesigns. Nice to have variety but it got hard to keep track of all of them. Seemed to work for them but I was always baffled.

But then I get pissed when shoe companies have to redesign their running shoes every year and I have to go through the real pain of figuring out which ones suck this time around when my previous years stock runs out. I think this year I’m just going to bite the bullet and order about 5 pair of this years Air Pegasus 10 Brooks Cascadia 5s (they are heavenly) right now. Might last me 2 years if I’m careful.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ken.C #294250 02/27/10 09:23 PM
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 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Yeah, I'm guessing it was around 2006ish.

The new crossover became available for sale around Jan/Feb 2007. I bought and installed it soon after.


*Michael*
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294251 02/27/10 09:31 PM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt
This all brings up another thing that always bothered me about AV123’s business model which was the shear number of different offerings, and redesigns. Nice to have variety but it got hard to keep track of all of them. Seemed to work for them but I was always baffled.

But then I get pissed when shoe companies have to redesign their running shoes every year and I have to go through the real pain of figuring out which ones suck this time around when my previous years stock runs out. I think this year I’m just going to bite the bullet and order about 5 pair of this years Air Pegasus 10 Brooks Cascadia 5s (they are heavenly) right now. Might last me 2 years if I’m careful.

I agree with you there. So many different designs, some only lasted a few months before being taken off the market.

Then there were a lot of designs that were shown to us in sketches but never materialized. Subwoofers like the BMF and X-Plosive? Center speakers like Ref200 and RSC500(bigfoot's oversized brother)?

I hate to admit but I think it was just a ploy to keep us hanging around so we didn't spend our money elsewhere with other companies. \:\( It was fun knowing what was in the works but when nothing came to fruition it caused a lot anger, disappointment, and frustration. It would have been better not knowing of any new products until they were in the warehouse in Colorado.


*Michael*
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
richeydog #294255 02/27/10 09:41 PM
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 Quote:
The newer rocket's (850's, 450's, RSC200 aka bigfoot)designed/redesigned by Danny Richie, are much better in that regard. Their measurements are way flatter than the 750's.

Really? After that 750 review I never saw any other AV123 measurements published. The Strata Mini's, which were supposed to be a cut above the Rockets, were the only other measurments I could find. I suspected that was deliberate.
Soundstage measurements of the Strata-Mini
I expect the midrange hump from 150 Hz to 2Khz was deliberate and designed to give the speakers a richer sound. The overwhelming majority of AV123 supporters described this as a neutral sound.

Look at the off axis response of the tweeter. It does not compare well to most of the better regarded speakers out there and would negatively impact the soundstage/imaging.

There is also a sharp dip at around 5KHz that may be crossover related. I don't know enough to know if that would be audible though.

Lastly, the distortion measurements are higher than many other speakers measured and would have an audible impact on clarity: another touted feature of the Strata-Mini.

All in all, the hype on these speakers did not match the measurements. I doubt it does for the Rockets.

On sale, the Rockets were probably a good value. Decent sound, great looks. Given the cost of veneer and the effort involved in the process, I bet AV123 did not make any money at the sale price though.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
RickF #294260 02/27/10 09:52 PM
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 Originally Posted By: RickF
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Ya know, assuming Mark is guilty, AV123 still made decent products. I've heard and seen some of them. They sounded pretty good (I'm biased towards Axiom, of course), and they looked gorgeous.

Now, this was before the MLS debacle, so maybe things changed.

At least while he was allegedly defrauding his community and customers, he wasn't making really shoddy products.


That's the baffling part Ken. I once worked for a guy who did something similar, lost a heck of a business because he just had to have that little extra.


Bernard Madoff is a great case study of this sort of thing. If you ever can see a special on him, watch it. Lots to learn about human psychology. Different industry but similar in some instances.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
fredk #294272 02/28/10 12:24 AM
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 Originally Posted By: fredk

Does that make Cam the unofficial Axiom pimp? Its time to go hat shopping Cam...


Here you go \:\)




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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ya_basta #294273 02/28/10 12:27 AM
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Yeah, I don't really want to become familiar with the back of your hand.

Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
CV #294280 02/28/10 01:39 AM
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 Originally Posted By: CV
Yeah, I don't really want to become familiar with the back of your hand.

True...

Very few have lived to tell about it.


*Michael*
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ya_basta #294297 02/28/10 04:56 AM
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Not a bad start wheelz, but you need to step up your game a little if you're gonna take this seriously...


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ya_basta #294300 02/28/10 05:22 AM
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Looking good Cam! Just grab yourself a churchwarden or calabash pipe and you’ll be doing a wicked Sherlock Holmes.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294301 02/28/10 05:23 AM
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I think Holmes Cam would look better than Pink Poodle Cam. ;\)


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294306 02/28/10 05:52 AM
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Dammit Dean, you were supposed to help me talk him into something more 'pink poodle'!


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
fredk #294308 02/28/10 06:02 AM
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Boy my timing is off today before it was a lack of caffeine now I suppose It’s a lack of alcohol. Time for an Erdinger Weissbrau Dunkel. Nice to have an AFB in Ramstein. ;\)


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294327 02/28/10 01:01 PM
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BAHAHAHA-Laughing hysterically-. I think it should be referred to as my gimp pimp hand.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ya_basta #294494 03/01/10 06:18 AM
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This link just got posted over at Audioholics:

http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?p=758327#post758327

Might be a joke but “extended warranty?”

Especially considering over 1/3 of the active threads over there today are in the classifieds section. 12 out of 34 right now.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294511 03/01/10 07:04 AM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt
This link just got posted over at Audioholics:

http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?p=758327#post758327

Might be a joke but “extended warranty?”

Especially considering over 1/3 of the active threads over there today are in the classifieds section. 12 out of 34 right now.


The classified section has been reasonably active for a while. When AV123 re-opened the forum in June(?) 2009 after a 6 month hiatus I noticed that the vibe wasn't the same. Many of the regulars either left for good or weren't posting as much. I don't blame them. But you are right, lately there are more people selling stuff than what I'm accustomed to.

Regarding the gentleman's post about extended warranty, I think he's being sincere. He just bought and received the x-statiks a couple of days ago. I sort of chuckled when I read about the extended warranty part. Um, okay? Right.


*Michael*
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
richeydog #294515 03/01/10 07:13 AM
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 Originally Posted By: richeydog

The classified section has been reasonably active for a while. When AV123 re-opened the forum in June(?) 2009 after a 6 month hiatus I noticed that the vibe wasn't the same. Many of the regulars either left for good or weren't posting as much. I don't blame them.

Regarding the gentleman's post about extended warranty, I think he's being sincere. He just bought and received the x-statiks a couple of days ago. I sort of chuckled when I read about the extended warranty part. Um, okay? Right.

Kind of sad watching what’s going on over there. I’ve seen a couple posts like that guy who don’t seem to see what’s going on. At least one new person who was a little miffed that no one warned her about things. Worst is seeing all the “old-timers” signing off and saying goodbye to each other. Though as you point out it looks like many of them weren’t hanging out there any more.

Wonder what it feels like for them? This is the only forum I hang out in regularly. I banned myself from a couple others because of wasting to much time on them plus they were wargaming forums and I haven’t had time for that for a while anyway. Makes me wonder how it would feel if this forum started dieing out.



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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294517 03/01/10 07:34 AM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt
Kind of sad watching what’s going on over there. I’ve seen a couple posts like that guy who don’t seem to see what’s going on. At least one new person who was a little miffed that no one warned her about things. Worst is seeing all the “old-timers” signing off and saying goodbye to each other. Though as you point out it looks like many of them weren’t hanging out there any more.

Wonder what it feels like for them? This is the only forum I hang out in regularly. I banned myself from a couple others because of wasting to much time on them plus they were wargaming forums and I haven’t had time for that for a while anyway. Makes me wonder how it would feel if this forum started dieing out.

It's not a good feeling. I've been posting there regularly for 5 years. Even though I've never met most of the people there I still call them friends. We talked about everything from cars to house repairs to cookbooks. You name it. (It's just like here at Axiom) The love of Audio brought us together and it's really disappointing that we're seemingly going to lose all that.

That being said, I also understand that there is more to life than internet forums. Spending time with family and close friends is where the greatest joy and happiness is at.

I think I'll be okay. ;\)


*Michael*
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
richeydog #294520 03/01/10 07:48 AM
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 Originally Posted By: richeydog
That being said, I also understand that there is more to life than internet forums. Spending time with family and close friends is where the greatest joy and happiness is at.


Great, now you tell me. I guess I just need to get my friends and family to join the forum. Wait, considering all of the dumb things I say here, perhaps it's best to keep those two worlds separate.

Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
CV #294522 03/01/10 08:00 AM
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 Originally Posted By: CV
 Originally Posted By: richeydog
That being said, I also understand that there is more to life than internet forums. Spending time with family and close friends is where the greatest joy and happiness is at.


Great, now you tell me. I guess I just need to get my friends and family to join the forum. Wait, considering all of the dumb things I say here, perhaps it's best to keep those two worlds separate.

I'm all for it. Let's get Regina to join the site.


*Michael*
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Denon AVR-591
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
richeydog #294524 03/01/10 08:04 AM
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That might upset Marina.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
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There would be some real meowing in the walls then.

Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294534 03/01/10 01:01 PM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt
 Originally Posted By: richeydog

The classified section has been reasonably active for a while. When AV123 re-opened the forum in June(?) 2009 after a 6 month hiatus I noticed that the vibe wasn't the same. Many of the regulars either left for good or weren't posting as much. I don't blame them.

Regarding the gentleman's post about extended warranty, I think he's being sincere. He just bought and received the x-statiks a couple of days ago. I sort of chuckled when I read about the extended warranty part. Um, okay? Right.

Kind of sad watching what’s going on over there. I’ve seen a couple posts like that guy who don’t seem to see what’s going on. At least one new person who was a little miffed that no one warned her about things. Worst is seeing all the “old-timers” signing off and saying goodbye to each other. Though as you point out it looks like many of them weren’t hanging out there any more.

Wonder what it feels like for them? This is the only forum I hang out in regularly. I banned myself from a couple others because of wasting to much time on them plus they were wargaming forums and I haven’t had time for that for a while anyway. Makes me wonder how it would feel if this forum started dieing out.


You brought up another excellent point that is pertinent about buying online and one of the "warning signs" and that is active censorship on the company forum (if it has one). You have been seeing this with their moderators or employees and also long time supporters of the company recommending, downplaying or staying quiet on very important and serious issues that they are fully aware when people ask about their products. Most of these individuals that got suckered in within the last year or so are probably going to be without a warranty . On a separate note I am also noticing a lot of censorship at Emotiva lately (which makes them not very attractive to me as a company)


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #294569 03/01/10 04:33 PM
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It's pretty sad to see an online community dissolving. Even if (for some reason) that community has been a bunch of jerks to our community at certain times.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294575 03/01/10 05:08 PM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt
Though it might be cool to see Cam “Pimp his Ride.”

I can see it now "'Cutter Cam' and the “Starship Enterpoop.”

Dated myself there didn’t I. ;\)


With Billy and the Boingers blasting on the stereo.

"U stink but luv u" and "I'm a boinger"


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ken.C #294577 03/01/10 05:17 PM
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 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
It's pretty sad to see an online community dissolving. Even if (for some reason) that community has been a bunch of jerks to our community our industry at certain times.


Fixed. There is a lot drama with this company outside of what has happened with anything relating to Axiom.


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ken.C #294580 03/01/10 05:20 PM
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 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
It's pretty sad to see an online community dissolving. Even if (for some reason) that community has been a bunch of jerks to our community at certain times.


I don't think you should generalize like that. Couple people there, a couple people here.

Stones in glass houses and all that.


HG Cherry M60's,VP150,Qs8's,EP350
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Sloped #294585 03/01/10 06:48 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Sloped
With Billy and the Boingers blasting on the stereo.

"U stink but luv u" and "I'm a boinger"

Wow, I hadn't thought of them in a long time. Talk about a blast from the past! I remember playing that flexible 45 that came with the book.

For those of you too young to know of this late 80s gem, this link has it all - the story, the pics, and embedded mp3s of both songs. Rock on!


Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica.
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Sloped #294586 03/01/10 06:50 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Dr. House

You brought up another excellent point that is pertinent about buying online and one of the "warning signs" and that is active censorship on the company forum (if it has one). You have been seeing this with their moderators or employees and also long time supporters of the company recommending, downplaying or staying quiet on very important and serious issues that they are fully aware when people ask about their products. Most of these individuals that got suckered in within the last year or so are probably going to be without a warranty . On a separate note I am also noticing a lot of censorship at Emotiva lately (which makes them not very attractive to me as a company)


Thanks for emphasizing this point, it is IMO one of the biggest warning signs to look for. Also the heavy handed censorship at Emo is nothing new. It happens every time someone starts complaining. There just happens to be a lot more of that right now because of those unhappy with their new pre-processor roll out. I see a lot of red flags at that company too.

There is another form of censorship to watch for, that of the forum member themselves.

Sloped, your point is well taken “I don't think you should generalize like that. Couple people there, a couple people here.” Every forum has it’s fanboys and even when not fanboys people have a tendency to circle the wagons when they feel attacked. But kcarlile’s comment and more accurately Dr. House’s re-write are valid. There is hardly an internet forum I’ve seen that wasn’t invaded by AV123 fanboys if someone posted a less than glowing review of one of their products. It’s the worst I’ve ever seen and Axiom was only a small portion of it.

Another bad sign is when Google auto completes “av123 p” to “av123 problems.”


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294591 03/01/10 07:06 PM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt
Another bad sign is when Google auto completes “av123 p” to “av123 problems.”


LMAO


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Sloped #294599 03/01/10 07:49 PM
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294604 03/01/10 08:00 PM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt
 Originally Posted By: Dr. House

You brought up another excellent point that is pertinent about buying online and one of the "warning signs" and that is active censorship on the company forum (if it has one). You have been seeing this with their moderators or employees and also long time supporters of the company recommending, downplaying or staying quiet on very important and serious issues that they are fully aware when people ask about their products. Most of these individuals that got suckered in within the last year or so are probably going to be without a warranty . On a separate note I am also noticing a lot of censorship at Emotiva lately (which makes them not very attractive to me as a company)




There is another form of censorship to watch for, that of the forum member themselves.






Definitely, though I think all company forums have of form of fanboyism (I am even guilty of it from time to time). However there is a clear pattern of some of their long time supporters defending this company beyond any rational way. Things like the constant quality issues with their products (most specifially their electronics), late deliveries which people where charged their credit card (some go well well beyond a year) and some to this day have never received anything!

Just imagine if somone purchased something from Axiom and it was expected in two weeks and never received their products up to even two months. Would you defend them? I certainly would not. Even customers being refused refunds and having their funds forced into store credit. Unbelievable! Even in those times people brushed it under the rug and continued to recommended their products. Shameful.




I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
pmbuko #294608 03/01/10 08:11 PM
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Morbid curiosity is such a fascinating thing. None of us want to see anyone going down in flames, but when they do, we just can't seem to look away.

I bitch about people that slow down to check out highway accidents, yet I'm 'driving by' this thread daily to check out the accident.


Fred

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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
fredk #294617 03/01/10 08:36 PM
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Yes, but you're aren't holding anyone else up by doing so.

Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Sloped #294619 03/01/10 08:51 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Sloped
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
It's pretty sad to see an online community dissolving. Even if (for some reason) that community has been a bunch of jerks to our community at certain times.


I don't think you should generalize like that. Couple people there, a couple people here.

Stones in glass houses and all that.


You're absolutely right.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ken.C #294636 03/01/10 10:05 PM
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What a mess.

As much as some people want to make this solely about the raffles and related indictments, it seems to me that the malfeasance was a symptom of a failing business. People seem to justifiably feel wounded because MLS' candor and charisma drew them in and gave them confidence in the products and joy in their purchases. Now that the messenger's integrity has been destroyed, even customers who weren't victims of the raffle scam will likely lose a measure of happiness in their lives.

It remains baffling and disappointing to me when we cannot rely on the fundamental honesty of our fellow creatures.

When you've found a job doing something you love and something that brings joy to people, and then mess it up by lying and stealing, that's just low.

I guess doing business with - and surrounding yourself with - people of good character isn't such a cliche after all.

I feel bad for Jack.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
tomtuttle #294640 03/01/10 10:11 PM
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Nice post Tom. I agree with you all on counts. \:\)


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
tomtuttle #294641 03/01/10 10:25 PM
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 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
I feel bad for Jack.
I appreciate the sympathy, Tom, but I haven't been connected with AV123 for nearly a year or more now. This is a disturbing situation, however.

It would be so simple if people were either all good or all bad. But, I have been the beneficiary of, and witnessed others who have been the beneficiary of, Mark's kindness and generosity. How do I reconcile that with this mess?

There is nothing good in this whole thing. Mark suffers, his company suffers, his friends suffer, his victims (if proved guilty) suffer, the charities suffer, the internet audio community suffers, etc., etc., etc. It's a total disaster.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Ajax #294642 03/01/10 10:28 PM
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Knowing and seeing his good side almost makes the bad side that much harder to stomach. \:\(

Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
pmbuko #294650 03/01/10 10:55 PM
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Let's not forget the people who were supposed to benefit from these 'charities' as well. That money was meant to help those people.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
tomtuttle #294652 03/01/10 11:01 PM
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 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
What a mess.

As much as some people want to make this solely about the raffles and related indictments, it seems to me that the malfeasance was a symptom of a failing business. People seem to justifiably feel wounded because MLS' candor and charisma drew them in and gave them confidence in the products and joy in their purchases. Now that the messenger's integrity has been destroyed, even customers who weren't victims of the raffle scam will likely lose a measure of happiness in their lives.



The time frame of the indictment alleges starting in 2004. I don't know how much stock you can put into the "failing business theory" but it looks like it compounded the issues. There is no doubt deceit. And btw con men can have very charismatic personalities. Its sad for all parties.


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #294653 03/01/10 11:05 PM
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Most con men have very, very charasmatic personalities, in fact.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Adrian #294654 03/01/10 11:06 PM
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Thats the beauty of the con adrian.


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-Max Payne
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
tomtuttle #294698 03/02/10 01:07 PM
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 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
What a mess.

As much as some people want to make this solely about the raffles and related indictments, it seems to me that the malfeasance was a symptom of a failing business. People seem to justifiably feel wounded because MLS' candor and charisma drew them in and gave them confidence in the products and joy in their purchases. Now that the messenger's integrity has been destroyed, even customers who weren't victims of the raffle scam will likely lose a measure of happiness in their lives.

It remains baffling and disappointing to me when we cannot rely on the fundamental honesty of our fellow creatures.

When you've found a job doing something you love and something that brings joy to people, and then mess it up by lying and stealing, that's just low.

I guess doing business with - and surrounding yourself with - people of good character isn't such a cliche after all.

I feel bad for Jack.


Hear, Hear! Sorry - in my book it is black and white. Either you have integrity or you don't.


"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Churchill
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #294699 03/02/10 02:20 PM
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 Originally Posted By: grunt
 Originally Posted By: Dr. House

You brought up another excellent point that is pertinent about buying online and one of the "warning signs" and that is active censorship on the company forum (if it has one). You have been seeing this with their moderators or employees and also long time supporters of the company recommending, downplaying or staying quiet on very important and serious issues that they are fully aware when people ask about their products. Most of these individuals that got suckered in within the last year or so are probably going to be without a warranty . On a separate note I am also noticing a lot of censorship at Emotiva lately (which makes them not very attractive to me as a company)




Another bad sign is when Google auto completes “av123 p” to “av123 problems.”


LOL!

What about when someone starts typing into google av123 subwoofer. Once you hit av123 s one of the choices google comes up with is av123 scam. Yeah I would say thats a big warning sign.


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #295777 03/10/10 03:19 PM
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Just another data point...

I continue to get at least 2 emails a week from AV123 touting big sales.

I just shake my head and hit delete.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
tomtuttle #295778 03/10/10 03:20 PM
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You could also try unsubscribing. \:\)

Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
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No no - I am amused.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
tomtuttle #295783 03/10/10 03:34 PM
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Wow, I have no idea why I did not open this thread earlier. Shocking!


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
tomtuttle #295808 03/10/10 05:15 PM
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 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Just another data point...

I continue to get at least 2 emails a week from AV123 touting big sales.

I just shake my head and hit delete.
I am also on their emailing list and do pretty much the same as you, hit delete and am also amused at how hard they are trying to garner some sales. Some of those sale prices are almost hard to resist till I think about who I would be supporting.


Jason
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
jakewash #295865 03/10/10 08:47 PM
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 Originally Posted By: jakewash
 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Just another data point...

I continue to get at least 2 emails a week from AV123 touting big sales.

I just shake my head and hit delete.
I am also on their emailing list and do pretty much the same as you, hit delete and am also amused at how hard they are trying to garner some sales. Some of those sale prices are almost hard to resist till I think about who I would be supporting.


You would get killed with shipping and brokerage costs anyways. For what? To get an unreliable product and probably no warranty coverage over the entire term. I wouldn't buy that stuff even if they were giving it away.


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #295874 03/10/10 09:12 PM
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Just always wanted to hear what Rockets sound like.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
jakewash #295879 03/10/10 09:26 PM
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Jay, why not make your own 'Rockets'? didn't the "Ninja" do crossovers for this speaker? get a couple of crossovers from him and get all the drivers from parts express(HiVi) probably be a lot cheaper than buying them from 123....


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Adrian #295882 03/10/10 09:53 PM
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The Ninja makes 'upgraded' crossovers, he didn't have anything to do with the original stuff and I do not know the exact interior dimensions of, say the RS850, so for me to make a set would be rather difficult and to get that same rosewood finish they had would take me along time, much easier to look for a used set now or even better and owner nearby so I don't have to spend any more money ;\)


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
jakewash #295885 03/10/10 10:06 PM
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I priced out the drivers for the RS850 at PE and it come out to about $166 USD per speaker, the most expensive driver is the Vifa ring rad tweet at around $45. Roughly $330 total for a pair plus crossovers and cabinet materials.


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Adrian #295956 03/11/10 09:46 AM
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But without the cossovers and dimensions, which I would imagine could be found if I looked reasonably hard, getting the drivers is somewhat pointless. But that is not a bad starting point, hmmmmmm.....


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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
jakewash #295962 03/11/10 12:31 PM
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Hmmm. I wonder what would happen if someone built a variable crossover with an adjustment knob on the back of the speaker. Can you imagine the drama from folks who can already barely decide if their speakers sound better with 10 degrees of toe in or 15? Hmmm maybe it's just a bad idea.


With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Murph #296026 03/11/10 05:27 PM
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I wondered that reg a few makers of speakers with active crossovers. I'm sure the manufacturer would recommend certain proximities on the driver crossovers but you just know somebody is going to TRY something silly....I wonder how high I can cross this woofer at before it...OH!! DANG IT!!


Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Adrian #299939 04/02/10 05:45 AM
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I was just doing some forum hopping and noticed that 13 of the 18 active threads today at AV123 were in the classifieds section. Richeydog did mention that section is quite active but that seems like a worse ratio than before.


3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #299955 04/02/10 01:33 PM
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That wouldn't be suprising considering what has transpired. Sure there are people looking to dump product but what is it really worth? With the consistent slashing of the MSRP over the years, quality problems with the products, no transferable warranty and what looks like a company that won't be in business much longer there is absolutely no value in that product and brand.

There are people that pre-paid 6k for a speaker that has not even been made yet . What a horrible company. Maybe grunt you can join that lovely audio community and post a picture of the mugshot from boulder county that has surfaced.


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #299957 04/02/10 01:45 PM
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It's an awfull situation. I've seen firsthand(twice) companies go through bankruptcy, and the numbers of people that it affects, from employees to unpaid customers and creditors is devastating. It appeared that the President of one of the companies I worked for, knew exactly what he was doing, and ran his creditors into the millions. I managed a peek at the list of creditors, the highest was over $7 million!! that particular company filed for bankruptcy a year later.


Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Adrian #299985 04/02/10 06:39 PM
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IIRC Adrian the individuals that pre-paid for these speakers was well over a year ago. I think it might be even up to 2 years ago. They have had plenty of time to build this product or offer the refund to customers. If you have followed this company at all they like to bait and switch when they miss deadlines or with their solid lineup of vaporware and lock people into store credit instead of refunding the purchase.


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #299991 04/02/10 06:58 PM
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It's hard to believe the authorities let this guy operate in such a manner for so long, never minding the "charity raffle" scam he was running.


Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Adrian #299997 04/02/10 07:47 PM
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There was lots of misinformation spread by a lot of "fanboys" and "apologists" that defended the company over the years which overhyped products and service and underplayed customer issues on late delevieries, pre-pays, failure rates, lack of customer service communication etc. This esentially acted as a shield which attracted new customers along with continuously slashing the MSRP on products.

When you get quotes on contractors for housing projects, do you always go with the guy that offers the lowest price?

"The only thing that is over-hyped is hype"


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Adrian #300007 04/02/10 08:12 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Adrian
It's hard to believe the authorities let this guy operate in such a manner for so long, never minding the "charity raffle" scam he was running.

Contrary to popular opinion, 'the man' can't watch everybody. Someone had to complain first. The amazing thing is that the person who did, never owned any of their products.


Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
fredk #300008 04/02/10 08:17 PM
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 Originally Posted By: fredk
 Originally Posted By: Adrian
It's hard to believe the authorities let this guy operate in such a manner for so long, never minding the "charity raffle" scam he was running.

Contrary to popular opinion, 'the man' can't watch everybody. Someone had to complain first. The amazing thing is that the person who did, never owned any of their products.


Or contributed to the raffles. Probably a good thing since a lot of their customer base was willing to overlook many things.


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #300017 04/02/10 08:45 PM
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Yah, the little that I read on their forum when all this was going down, I kept reading...."he's still a 'good' guy and I wish him all the best ect..."....tell that to the guy with cancer whom the charity was being held for, or as you guys mentioned, the guy waiting 2 yrs for his $7000 system and can't get his money back. I have no pity for the guy who ran this charade, but I feel for everyone else.


Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
Adrian #300518 04/06/10 07:40 AM
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grunt Offline OP
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Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
grunt #300530 04/06/10 01:32 PM
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I like to call them Mini-Me 123 (in a Dr. Evil voice). Thanks for posting that. Emovita is questionable these days. They certainly lack professionalism in the way they conduct business. Censorship and the way they are handling issues of the UMC-1 which is a totally faulted product btw makes them look really shady to me. They screwed up, live with it, don't try to mislead, censor the customer and also treat them with respect.

I get a true sense of a company in how they handle adverse sitiuations and how they deal with its customers. Remember how Mini-Me 123 and 123 handled themselves when they were together with problematic products? If I'm not mistaken I think it was a pre-pro that created a lot of problems?


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
BlueJays1 #300542 04/06/10 02:20 PM
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Just a quick post to mention that Outlaw just put their 2200s on sale this morning through April 18th. The more you buy, the more you save but, as an example, if you buy two it's $540 w/free ground shipping for a total savings of $214 off the regular price.

I really, really, don't need them but am tempted to order a pair anyway. Joyce gives me lots of leeway, but I think she would kill me for this after the huge amounts of money I've spent lately.


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
MarkSJohnson #300559 04/06/10 03:47 PM
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Only one way to find out for sure, Mark.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: IOnline shopping: who are you really buy from
MarkSJohnson #300693 04/07/10 08:44 AM
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 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson

I really, really, don't need them but am tempted to order a pair anyway. Joyce Kim gives me lots of leeway, but I think she would kill me for this after the huge amounts of money I've spent lately.


Ditto

I have already put them in the cart a few times tonight......


Jason
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