Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Question about Audyssey

While doing some reading I came across this on the Elemental Design website. Just curious who turns their sub off while calibrating their system using an auto calibrating receiver. Or has anyone else heard of such a thing?

I have an older receiver right now but do have plans on updating my system later in this year.


If you have a receiver with built in auto equalization such as Audyssey, we
suggest keeping this turned off. Auto equalization programs have one goal, to get
a flat frequency response for your system. The downfall to these programs is
their inability to know the limits of the subwoofers speaker and amplifier. We
have seen some cases of the program adding upwards of 15-20 decibels at
20hz. Not only is this very demanding of the speaker and amplifier, but it can also
cause damage.

I've never heard of that, but it does make sense when you think about it.

All the audyssey FAQs I have ever read do not recommend that.

I don't know shat for shinola but I got my EP500 today, the instructions say to turn it to 1/4 volume for "auto-calibration" (but auto-calibration" not recommended)

I have just finished running audyssey and now need to go play with the sub volume

Interesting. Pioneer's MCACC doesn't really EQ the sub. It only uses parametric attenuation filters to notch out frequencies which build up in the room due to standing waves. It then may apply a little positive "trim" to the over-all signal (I've never seen more than +3 dB) to get the best possible average level.

I sortof hate this fact ... I've been looking for HTPC, audio, video nirvana for a while now ... I'm getting old and want the easy way out ... push a button I'm in

From the Audyssey FAQ:

http://www.audyssey.com/technology/faq.html#overdriving



So according to Audyssey at least it is not an issue. Also I’m not sure a sub like the EP500 would be in danger either because wouldn’t it’s own DSP chip prevent it from being overdriven or am I mistake about how that works.



On of the reasons Audyssey recommends all speakers including full range be crossed over at 80Hz is because their filter on the LFE channel is suppose to be much finer than the low frequency filter on the other channels.

I’ve your read any of my posts you’ll know I’m not an Audyssey fanboy or even a fan for that matter. However, I can say with my current implementation of Audyssey on my Onkyo 3007 the bass from my EP500 is noticeably improved with Audyssey on in the one direct comparison I’ve made.

If I read Jeff's post correct Axiom dose not recommend it with their subs either.

During your setup did you do the 1/4 setup? And if so did you leave the volume there? Im so new to this I would leave it as it is, and not know something better is available.. the Axiom instructions said set the cross over at your highest freq, Audsyssey set some of mine at 90 so Im at the 150 setting on the EP500

No the old manual use to give a “clock” position which I read incorrectly and set way to high. Scared the hell out of me. I think when I finally set it lower and ran the auto setup and it ended up setting the LFE channel to -10dB (the range was +-12db). So I turned it down lower and ran auto setup again to get a level setting closer to 0 so I had some room to play with adjusting the sub up and down from the receiver. I would go with Axiom’s recommended settings and then check the levels that auto-setup set your subwoofer to and if it’s up around +-10 I would adjust it accordingly at the sub and re-run auto-setup.

If you’re using your receiver’s bass management like most people then I would set the subwoofer’s crossover to the highest setting or bipass if it has one.

Funny story. When I got my Pioneer to replace an ancient Sony receiver which only had manual test tones, I figured since the Pioneer auto set the sub level, I'd just turn the sub up all the way and let the receiver cut it back as needed.

So the MCACC test begins. It plays a quick pink burst through each channel. When it gets to the sub, the thing makes a horrible sound and tries to crawl across the floor. The a message appears on the screen, something to the effect of, "please turn down the volume on the sub-woofer and try again."

I guess it was out of the ±10dB range. At least it stopped me early instead of trying to continue through the test.

Rick, that sounds like a manufacturer which hasn't studied the complex Audyssey parameters enough and is passing out advice which would forfeit one of its major features. I use Audyssey at all times with the EP500.

This cracks me up. Seriously, I'm sitting here giggling. Fortunately, I do this sort of thing often enough that my wife doesn't even bother giving me funny looks any more.

Looks like Axiom needs to study a bit more too then.

I just read the updated manual and there is still no mention of how to adjust the distance setting to account for the DSP. So if not using the auto-setup what is Axiom suggesting to add to the distance to make for the delay?

Also not sure if it’s intentional but Axiom appears to be specifically saying not to use auto-setup and not some form of EQ. I think in the past I’ve read Alan mention to avoid using the auto-EQ features in general but I’m curious on this particular issue since this is really the only area (LFE) where think I’ve noticed any benefit from Audyssey.

Its common for manufacturers to not recommend auto correction programs. Salk Sound does not recommend using Audyessy with their products either. I posted it in another thread a while back but I can't find his response in regards to this using the search function.

When using an automatic EQ program, it modifies the sound characteristics of a manufacture’s speaker. You will never hear a speaker manufacture recommend doing that. If they did, they would essentially be saying that there is something wrong with their design. They always recommend room treatments, but never EQ. Don’t expect Axiom to recommend this, ever.

Audyssey always refers to itself as "room correction" and downplays the idea of speaker compensation. That way they can avoid saying negative things about speaker manufacturers.

-Dave

Correct, which is why speaker manufactures recommend room treatments before EQ to correct issues generated by the room that may be undesirable for proper sound. The EQ programs work by applying filters and changes to the frequency response of each speaker, which, in effect, changes the way the speaker sounds. It is an unrealistic expectation to think a speaker manufacture will ever get into bed with any of the “room correction” software / hardware manufactures. I did see an exception to this once. I do not recall the manufacture, but each speaker has an electronic EQ of sorts built into it. It’s been a long time since I saw these and I’ve forgotten the details. At the time I was looking at them, I felt they were very gimmicky, and expensive.

Bose 901s, I think.

Bose may have done this, but that wasn't the speaker system I was thinking of... It was the same brand that makes those speakers that have combination drivers. That's not the right word....tweeters and mids share the same driver, whatever that is. I think John B or Chess owns a set. At any rate, that's the brand who made them. I think they were about 5K each. I didn't spend much time looking at them.....

Revel Loud Speakers have always had some fashion of tuning in their high end speakers. It's more trim controls to compensate for near wall boundary gain, and/or highly reflective surfaces. They're $22k for a pair, but it shows that some manufacturers will allow the sound of their speakers to be altered to compensate for placement/room issues.

Well yes, but THEY are doing it, not IT being done to them by another company's widget. Big difference.

I'll keep quiet on this from here out and in retrospect, shouldn't have said anything. I shouldn't be speaking for Axiom as if I actually know my ass from a hole in the ground.

I don't believe Axiom (Alan as commented in the past) recommends room treatments, other than natural room furniture, etc.. Personally, room treatments (corner bass traps, and first reflection panels) as used in recording studios should also be used in a HT environment, for the same reasons. You don't want to over deaden a room, but there are tons more scientific studies from reputable audio labs to the benefits of adding these, compared to the few NRC tests to the contrary. Even Kris K and Tomlinson Holman (THX founder) from Audyssey say they should be included in addition to proper room room eq like Audyssey.

I can vouch to the huge benefits Audyssey has done for my home theater, with Axiom neutral speakers, and it has not made "good speakers sound worse", as is often said on here...

Audyssey adjusts for different room characteristics at multiple seating locations. Speakers designed to be neutral or flat in an anechoic chamber is one thing, but as soon as you move them into the various rooms we all have, products such as Audyssey are needed.

I would think it would be more of a personal preference more so than " products such as Audyssey are needed."

All you have to do is press the button on the remote to jump from before AND after. I'm guessing your ears will say, crap, Audyssey is awesome.

If the ears start talking, who's going to listen to them?

Not sure if Alan still stands by this but here’s what he has said emphasis mine:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/how_to_buy_receiver.html




Here is what Alan has said about room treatments:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/roomacoustics.html

That room acoustics article makes me want to put Alan's signature on everything.

I'm of the opinion that while room treatments are definately the best way to get the best possible sound (I've been in SRoode's HT, so I can appreciate what a well treated room can sound like) out of your system, it's definately also the most extreme. My guess is that a good 85 - 90% of house holds with any kind of HT at all in their homes don't know the slightest thing about room treatements. I for one had never even heard the term before I became a member of this board. On the other hand, I'll bet at least 75% of the population that have looked into buying a reciever in the $500 dollar and over range have at least heard about Audyssey.

Audyssey in some form is included in most of those $500 dollar plus recievers, correctly treating a room could cost thousands of dollars... IF the miss's were even to ok things like bass traps in the corners of the room, and huge pannels on the walls and ceilings instead of pictures of the family or other decorative paintings. I don't imagine spending money on such things is a very easy sell to most wives/girlfriends. I mean first you hit them with the notion that you're going to take down all of their decorations... and now you're going to try to convince them to spend HOW MUCH money on these ungodly looking things?

"Honey, didn't the salesman say there was something included inside of that retriever thingy that does all of that stuff for us"???

I say all of that even though I don't use Audyssey, and would love to be able to take down all the pictures and put up treatments similar to what SRoode did. But my point is that realistically this just isn't what is going on in HT's around the world. I mean look at me, I was able to convince my better half that spending $4400 dollars on speakers alone was not insane... but I'll never be able to convince her to take down all of the pictures and hang treatments up, even if I do finally get my way and put some bass traps in the corners... it just ain't happening fella's!

Therefore any speaker company that say's, "turn the Audyssey off and treat your room" is speaking to a very, very small percentage of his clients. And alienating the rest. I can't blame them for saying it, because in my opinion it's definately true! I just feel it's a mistake to expect everyone to be able to do this. I would be a little bit like Frederick Henderson coming on the TV and saying, "you know America, if I were you I wouldn't even consider buying a GM vehicle unless it was a fully loaded Corvette... anything less than a decked out Corvette falls short of the best performance GMC has to offer".

Hey that would be an accurate statement, but the number of GMC customers who are willing to take all of the trade-off's a Corvette comes with (low fuel mileage, only two seats, high insurance, terrible in the snow and ice, very high sticker price, etc...) aren't all that many. So while there's nothing wrong with praising how wonderful your Corvette line is, it would be wise to let your customers know that a Malibu is ok too.

Audyssey also adds another element of user error that is hard to diagnose along with other user setup problems like placement, room, connections, calibration, receiver settings etc that can be tough to determine over the phone. From a customer service standpoint you have to isolate variables. It wouldn't surprise me if they get a ton of calls about auto correction programs causing problems/user error. It only makes sense that the manufacturer would not recommend auddyssey or tell you to turn it off.

But isn't that why they call it Audyssey Room Correction? Its primary purpose is to compensate for room shortcomings, not poor speakers.

Philosophically I understand why Alan wouldn't want anything to mess with and/or change the sound of a nice neutral, linear speaker, but a bad room (acoustically) is essentially doing just that. Audyssey simply trys to correct whatever effect the room is having on the sound.

A properly treated room is always preferred, but many are unable or unwilling to go that route, so Audyssey offers them an alternative. The results will vary from person to person, so just consider it another tool. Use it if it helps with the overall sound, otherwise turn it off. You get it included with the receiver either way, so it doesn't cost anything to try it out.

Do you recall any specific movie material where the Audyssey on/off differences were most noticable? Or is it most noticable in 2-channel music?

Not IMO. It’s an auto-EQ system which is designed to automaticaly equalized for frequency and AFAIK some timing anomalies regardless if they are speaker or room induced. So IMO calling it “room correction” is a marketing ploy so as not to further alienate speaker and other equipment manufactures, and probably also to make it sound more “friendly” to the layperson. Room correction is only a part of what systems like Audyssey do.

I’m guessing, since I don’t know what Alan thinks, that not using EQ is more than just philosophical. As Dr House mentioned it adds another step in processing into the chain of sound output. Auto-setup routines (the receiver not Audyssey) can miss identify speaker sizes and make less than optimal crossover choices. Even Audyssey recommends ignoring the processors auto-setup and resetting all speakers to small w/80Hz crossover. Audyssey also recommends using only direct radiating speaker an not using speakers like the QS8s.

My biggest problem with auto-EQ systems is trying to compensate for multiple seating. My seating is spread across 8 feet with 2 seats about < 3 feet from the wall and one about 6.5 feet. Show me the EQ filter that can flatten out all frequencies for each seat. Or the timing adjustments that can correct for the distance to all 3 seats from all 11 speakers + subwoofers. Maybe something is better than nothing or not in a case like this and as you say people should try it and find out if they like it.

I wonder if anyone has experimented with multiple speaker brands set up in the same room with auto-EQ applied. Theoretically they systems should sound more similar with the EQ applied than not? It would be interesting to test that.

AFAIK no one is saying never to use auto-EQ. Rather that with any tool to understand the benefits and costs involved in using it rather than automatically assume it’s a necessity. I just advocate that people should listen to their systems and tweak things a bit before using auto-EQ so they can get a better appreciation for what it can and can’t do.

I've noticed a great improvement for all material, as I did before I added my acoustic room treatments. jm2cents

About a year ago a coworker of mine paid about $350 for a complete 5.1 Onkyo HTIB from Coscto and it even included some basic version of Audyssey. I'm just saying you don't even need to spend $500 on a receiver to get this kind of feature anymore.

-Dave

Sorry, I meant specifically for just the room treatments (not Audyssey) was there any material that demonstrated the differences (before vs after the treatments). I guess your answer would probably still be the same ie. all material...