Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Outlaw Model 997 cancelled

Recieved this e-mail from Outlaw. I guess it was good that I did not wait for the 997

Important News from the Outlaws

Dear Mel:

As most Outlaws know, we have been working with Inkel to jointly develop a single hardware/software platform to be sold by Sherwood Newcastle as their R-972 audio/video receiver and, with substantial modifications, by Outlaw Audio as the Model 997 surround processor. Now that the R-972 is finally on the market, it is time to update you on the status of that project.

To get right to the point, due to the current state of the R-972 and the inability of Inkel to properly implement our required changes, it is with great regret that we must inform you that we have cancelled the Model 997.

We know that this will be extremely disappointing to those who have been waiting patiently for this product. That is equally true for us at Outlaw. With interest in this product from thousands of customers, it is obvious that this will result in lost sales. However, we feel strongly that under the circumstances we have made the right decision.

The Reasons Why

To better understand the reasons behind this decision, we would like to share some of the details that brought us to this conclusion.

Half way through the development of this platform, Inkel switched the video processor to the Reon solution. While this move improved the performance of the unit, it caused other side effects and delayed completion of the platform by almost nine months.
Proper implementation of the Trinnov Optimizer Room Correction System also took longer than expected, pushing all aspects of the schedule back even farther.
We have been testing pre-production beta samples for at least five months, but the inability of Inkel to get both the underlying platform to operate to our specifications and to have the Outlaw-specific changes made properly caused delays well beyond our initial production start date.
HDMI 1.4 and 3D have come to market with a speed that is considerably quicker than anyone in the industry had anticipated. The demand for compatibility with these key technologies and the fact that we could not offer them in our new processor put the final nail in the Model 997's coffin. Knowing that many of you have waited for the Model 997 as your first HDMI processor, we could not introduce it with anything less than the absolute state-of-the-art in digital connectivity. We simply would not put you in a position of investing in a processor only to find out later that you needed to replace it with a new model when you moved to 3-D.
The time we have invested on the Model 997 has diverted our attention from the other products we have in development. With many of those products reaching a critical stage, we had to make a decision on where to invest our resources. The payback on spending any further time or effort on the Model 997, which in our opinion was still not ready for production, was no longer there.
When considering these issues, compounded with several others, it became clear that the Model 997 platform design no longer met your needs or ours. We delayed this decision (some might say even longer than we should have) in the hope that things would work out favorably, but that was not to be. Again, despite the realization that this would be a disappointment to the many Outlaws who have been waiting patiently, we felt that even if the Model 997 was fully debugged and ready for production, it is now past the point where we could sell this processor as it stands. It would just be too far behind the curve the moment it was released.

What Happens Now?

We know that our decision raises many questions, so we'll answer some of them here and follow up with additional details as we move forward.

Most importantly, we are firmly committed to offering surround sound processors. Before the end of the year we will introduce a new product to take the place in our line-up that the Model 997 would have occupied. In reality, this new model, which we have been planning for some time, was originally intended to replace the Model 997 when that product came to the end of its life.

Given our experience with the Model 997 project, it is important to emphasize that our new flagship processor will NOT be derived from an existing platform. It will be an Outlaw exclusive design, built from the ground up to our own specifications and manufactured for us by a company responsible for many high-end brand home theater products. By taking total control of this new model we are assured that it will meet our highest standards for performance and product quality.

Now that we no longer have the diversion of the Model 997, we are totally focused on the new product, and we're turning up the heat on this project. As an example of the speed with which we are proceeding, our engineering teams have already completed the design for the 3D compatible, HDMI 1.4a video board. The chips needed to build this board will arrive before the end of March.

To give you a taste of what this product will deliver, here are some of the top level features for what we have code-named the Outlaw Model 998:

Multiple 3D-Ready, HDMI 1.4a inputs and outputs, including a front panel jack for connection to digital cameras and camcorders.
On the audio side, Dolby Volume, Dolby PLIIz, high-performance DACs and balanced audio outputs.
Also on the audio side, our commitment to the Trinnov Optimizer has not changed. We have heard and evaluated Trinnov and assure you that it is the real deal: far ahead of any room correction system we have ever heard, at any price. With this new product, we will implement Trinnov so that it works the way it is meant to be used - and heard! Trinnov is fully on-board with our plan, and they are now exchanging details with our engineering teams.
On the video side, there will be state-of-the-art video processing and scaling when you want it, and full bypass when you don't. The interface and menu system will be straightforward, easy to use and powerful, all at the same time.
Direct USB software upgradeability without the need for direct connection to a computer or the need for any loader programs. You'll simply download the new software to a USB drive when needed, plug it into the front panel, and the processor will take it from there.
Barring any unforeseen complications or component price increases, this new processor will be close to the price range of the Model 997. It will be hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars lower than anything even remotely like it. And yes, the $200 credit for past Outlaw processor customers will still be valid on this new unit. When you see and hear the video and audio performance of this processor and use its flexible but easy operation and interface, we're confident that you'll be as excited as we are about our new processor.

Lest anyone have any doubt about our commitment to this product, we invite you to click here to take a sneak peak at the preliminary front panel design.

Finally, you might ask where this leaves us in the next few months. We have a number of great new products in the works, along with some exciting new partnerships that will enable you to upgrade virtually every aspect of your home entertainment system. Stay tuned for more information in the weeks and months ahead.

Thank you in advance for understanding the reasoning behind this very tough decision. While it pushes our new processor back a bit further than we'd like, the end result will be an all-new product that better suits everyone's long term needs. More than ever, our new surround processor and the other products we have in the pipeline for 2010 will make Outlaw Audio the one place where "The best values in Home Theater are just a mouse click away.™"


Best regards,
The Outlaws

Well it’s about time they pulled the plug. I really wanted to try Trinnov but I got sick of waiting a long time ago. I hope they get it right this time around.

That' what I'm hoping as well Dean. Don't know if I need another processor though.

Got the email too.

Having given up on Emotiva after the junky LMC-1 and the {ongoing} UMC-1 shenanigans, I was eagerly awaiting Outlaw's 997. I guess not!

{Sultry female computerized voice: Engaging Internet Forum Rant Mode}

Frankly, I've run out of patience for these bargain boutique manufacturers that can't seem to deliver (on time, or at all) on their products. I've already been waiting for 3+ years for Emotiva & Outlaw to come up with their new 'miracle' pre-pros. The UMC is kind of luke-warm in its reception and the 997 was vaporware. Yay. I'm done waiting. I'm not sitting around for another 2+ years while they try to bring out the next one, only to be disappointed again. Mass-market AVR maker, here I come.

{Sultry female computerized voice: Internet Forum Rant mode, disabled}

When the little notification popped up letting me know I had an e-mail with the subject, "Important News from the Outlaws", I knew exactly what it was going to say. I've been following this product (and the Sherwood Newcastle) for about a year now.

Yeah, it's time they gave up. It's pretty obvious that Inkel somehow got in over their head on this one. It is a shame that Axiom is a Sherwood Newcastle dealer.

Wow, what a mess. Thanks for the update.

Should we start a pool for when the 998 actually releases?

Wow, it's finally happened. Technology has finally gotten so fast, that even the manufacturers of the equipment that uses it can't release their products fast enough to keep up with it. When a company realizes that their 'BRAND NEW, STATE OF THE ART' product is out dated before it's even released... then we know we're moving forward too fast.

While I love new technology, when they start coming out with new, bigger, better giggets faster than the consumer can keep up with them, it creates a serious problem. Think back to the day when the world switched over from vinyl to cassette tapes. The transission was long, and steady. It gave everyone time to prepare themselves for the technology cassette tapes had over records (the ability to record, portability, no worries about scratching, could play in your vehicle, etc...). If you were caught out in the cold for that switch, it was because you were just plain lazy.

The switch from cassette tapes to CD's went a bit quicker, but still went by fairly slowly. I have to admit that when CD's came out I was a bit stubborn about switching over because I already had 500 some tapes, a very expensive tape deck in my car, and many cassette players in my house. I did not want to have to buy all new hardware to play CD's. So I procrastinated over that for a few years until I met my first wife and she had a collection of 300 some CD's and a CD player. Once I got used to all the advantages of CD's I never wanted to use cassette tapes again.

Flash forward to 2002 when I bought my Denon 4802. Up until that point people had been using the same reciever they'd bought in the early 80's without missing out on much. But the new technology out at the time was optical audio, composite video and component video and digital coax... the world was changing over to digital. I'd waited about as long as I thought I needed to, to upgrade to a new reciever. Now I did buy my big screen Toshiba rear projection TV at the same time, and that was right when the market was trying to figure out if they were going to go with DVI or HDMI connections... my Toshiba had a DVI connection. None of the recievers out around that time had either connection built into it, and I didn't even think about waiting around for it because I didn't think I really needed that incorporated into my reciever.

So with more bells and whistles than I could shake a stick at, I picked up the 4802 and thought I was good to go for the next few decades at least. Only to find out that within the next year or two HDMI would defeat DVI completely and go on to become a hugely important part of reciever usefulness. The only thing is every other year we have to upgrade the HDMI technology. We're currently on HDMI 1.4, how high will it get? Nobody knows. Why would we ever believe that 3D is where it's going to end? We have no reliable resource to tell us when and where we should pull the trigger to give us the best long term product for our money. The industry does not seem to want to settle down and go with anything long term anymore. They just keep pushing things further and further, which I might add is truely wonderful if you can afford to overhaul your $10,000 plus HT every two years or so. But for those of us with much more humble incomes it only creates madness wondering when we should finally spend our wad.

I bought my 65 inch Sharp LCD last year because I'd seen the 120 hz and even the 240 hz LCD's and didn't think they were worth spending two to three times what I spent on this 60 hz model. Now if I want to enjoy 3D I have to scrap this $3000 dollar out dated dinosaur and plunk down probably upwards of $10,000 to $15,000 bucks for a unit this size that's 3D capable... for the first 3 or 4 years anyhow. Once they start coming down in price to where I can afford one, then the NEXT thing will come out. The next thing that I'll decide I'd rather wait 3 or 4 more years to come down in price before I get it. And on and on the waiting game continues.

Technology rocks and sucks, all at the same time.

Yeah, if the companies start pushing these 3D sets too soon, there will be a lot of angry consumers saying just what you've said. Good post.

I don't look on this scenario as a bad thing. I just get to buy something at bargain basement prices on something I was drooling over a few years ago.

It doesn't really surprise me that Outlaw "through in the towel" on this project. When you choose to "get in bed" with a company( S/N) that has always been notoriously late with even their own product introductions, this was bound to happen. It seems they have finally learned their lesson about this. I know of a retailer locally that "theoretically" carries the S/N line and even he now can' t be bothered making excuses for them anymore and of course, recommends other lines he sells.

I own some Outlaw equipment and it is very good and their service is excellent, however, I would submit that they better follow through with this new project (998) in a timely, "reliable" and price competitive manner since, considering the competition, another slip-up like the 997 could have very serious repercussions for the future of the company, that is, if the 997 fiasco hasn't done so already.

HDMI 1.4 isn't needed by most/all of us right now, but I guess if you are going to start making a new receiver or pre/pro you might as well use that as the starting point, unfortunately 1.4x or 1.5 will most likely be out by the time the unit makes it to market.

I think the manufacturers are off the mark trying to bring 3D TV out, I feel it is just too gimmicky an idea, it is fun at the theater but in my house I just want to watch a movie; besides the masses haven't even moved to flatscreens/BR yet!

Very good post, Micah. I agree with all of it, although I'm a bit farther back on the tech curve than you are.

Just saw this . Just what I want to spend $450 on just to watch a 3d movie in my own house, let alone the cost of the 3d player, $399 and TV ($?), no thanks. I will let those early adopters continue to shoulder the costs till they get prices WAY down.

I had needed a new processor a few months ago and managed to wait until the first Sherwood Newcastle R-972s started shipping. They were having so many problems out of the gate I decided to wait. As someone at AVS said that when is shows up as available on Axiom’s web site then they know it will be ready for prime time. I got tired of waiting and got the Onkyo. So a couple three years from now when I want another new processor maybe the Outlaw or someone else’s version will be ready.

Amps are easy compared to processors.

Subs are easy compared to loudspeakers.

Editing is easy compared to composing.

I love NOT being on the bleeding edge.

I'd like it if AVR companies just went completely modular (based on ISA). Let's offload the processing to our CPU processors and put boards in for all the other stuff. Then, out to an amp.

Probably be a while, but that would be a powerful and flexible solution.

I just hope the Outlaws can survive this fiasco. The coolest feature I've seen in the HDMI 1.4 spec is the inclusion of an internet connection. When most devices these days either benefit from or require one then adding ethernet both reduces the number of cables required and eliminates the need for more ports on your home's router.

I see this 3D push as nothing more than a FAD. Even when glasses are no longer required to view it, I'm certain that it will still make some people nauseous. I'll stick with my 5.1 audio, DVDs and Bloreis for now.

I for one am looking forward to HDMI 1.4 with a net connection. And will get an AVR when available. All the gear I have has a network connection and I can't believe the amount of cables in my rack. Just a bunch of HDMI connects and some speaker wires and Im in. Ill have to replace a bunch of equipment over the long run, but still think its a good move

A few thoughts:
When I got the email yesterday, I was also thinking "it's about time".

I think they should offer the Integra Pre-Pro so that buyers can have a full solution without going somewhere else.

And, on the 3-D thing.....
I've been keeping an eye out for a new TV for a couple of months now. I keep hearing about 3-D this, 3_d that in the last several months. CES was all about 3-D, my latest issue of one of the magazines is all about 3-D.....

I told myself that I might make it a point to buy a non-3-D-capable TV when the prices drop, 'cuz I don't need no stinkin' 3-D gimmick...

But yesterday, at a pro video trade show, JVC was showing a U2 concert in 3D on a moderate screen....probably 46".... and it was freakin' awesome! Not gimmicky at all, I felt it just might be the difference between a TV that reproduces the world v. one that just seems like a "window" to the world. In short...REALLY impressive... and did I mention it didn't seem at all gimmicky?

I think that as long as some programmers are starting to commit to 3-D programming, I just might hold off on that new TV....

3D is all about debt perception... if you continue to buy new stuff, your debts are going to be perceived...

I very much have to agree with this.

How often do companies like Sony think the general masses turn around their home VIDEO gear anyway?
Every other year?
People keep tvs for 10-15 years. Most don't have the financial capability to keep buying the latest and greatest of something that costs over 2k each year.

Digital broadcasting just made a recent leap leaving people with the old analog setups having to buy something new or get another set top box. Some people i know just caved in and tossed their old CRTs and bought a relatively small, new LCD tv (26", $500, doesn't have 1080 resolution, no HDMI).
THEN there is the influx of big screen tvs, with 4:3 ratios yes i know of people with these tvs who now of course want widescreen instead).
THEN, we have all this widescreen that is rolled out.
THEN the high definition was the biggest thing, first 720p (some pricier units could get you 1080i like ours, bought in 2002), and now 1080p.
THEN flat screens was the next advance. Now people (including myself) are contemplating getting rid of the old massive CRTs for a LCD.
THEN the LCD improved from 60Hz to 120Hz, to 240Hz (and plasma improved and LED came out...improving on glitches and downfalls with each advance).
NOW new HDMI connections, Bluray instead of DVD, and next up, 3D meaning NEW Bluray ver. 2 player required, new TV required, etc. etc.

So many advances in so little time (say 10 years?) and the big companies are actually going to push this stuff?

I know personally i won't be having 3D tv or a player in our house for a LONGGGG time.
I doubt i'll miss the glasses any.

Someone wake me up when they finally come out with a solid revision of a holographic tv system and then i'll replace my present widescreen tv.

Yes indeed I'm not alone, this is driving everyone else just as mad as it is me!

The other day in another thread Ray Lewis asked me to see if I could find an interview with Bill Gates that I'd referenced. While I failed to find what I was looking for, I did stumble upon an interview where he was talking about an 'All-In-One' set top box that was your DVR, DVD/BR, cable provider, surround sound management... EVERYTHING box. And while I've heard others like Grunt (I think) mentioning turning computers into HT units, it never really interested me at all, until I read that article.

Then just the other day I had rented a movie from our local video store, and when I got it home my DVD player wouldn't play it. I took it out & cleaned it as good as I could, kept trying it, with no luck. I wanted to watch it so badly that as a last ditch effort I threw it into the DVD/CD-ROM on the computer (which is hooked up to my big screen LCD) and tried playing it on there... it played without a hitch!?! And I must say without doing any critical listening of viewing experiments on it, the soundtrack (Enemy of the State) sounded awesome, and the DVD picture was every bit as clean as my DVD player sends it to my TV!

And that got me to thinking, instead of looking for the perfect Blu-Ray player, should I just be looking to buy a Blu-Ray drive for the computer and be done with it? After all I have an HDMI video card installed on my computer, so it sends the picture out at up to 1080p, and while my computer doesn't decode the newest audio formats, I could send it PCM to the reciever to decode through the HDMI connection. So what's stopping me?

And then it really occured to me, when these recievers come out and are outdated within a year or two, computers are customizable. That's a huge plus. For instance if my Denon 4802 was built more like a computer, when HDMI 1.1, then 1.2, then 1.3 & now 1.4 came out, I could have just bought a new audio/video board with those connections built into it, slid it in place, and voila, no need for another $1500 dollar reciever!

Ok so now I'm seeing the light. The only down side is, the Blu-Ray drive for my computer wouldn't have a scaler chip to upgrade regular DVD's to 1080p will it? Is there hardware/software that will scale regular DVD's the same as the Oppo and other Blu-Ray players?

Heck if I could find the right hardware/software to distribute up to 9.2 discrete channels from my computer with the new PLII'z, and a few other modes that I use, then I'd toss my reciever altogether and just run the connections straight from my computer to my amps (I'd have to get a few more since all I have right now is the 3 channel Emotiva).

The more I think about it the more it makes sense. When something new comes out, I buy an upgraded audio &/or video card for a few hundred bucks tops (my HDMI audio/video card set me back a whopping $75 bucks), instead of having to plunk down upwards of $1000 bucks on a new reciever that I know will be outdated in a few years time. Need HDMI 1.4? Upgrade the audio video card. Need a 3D Blu-Ray player? Throw in a 3D Blu-Ray ROM into your computer instead of waiting for prices on the new 3D Blu-Ray players to come down from $1500 down to something I can afford. And it's all custom, I don't have to spend money on any bells I don't want/need, but can pick up the one's I do want without having to pay for all those other one's at the same time.

At the very least these new possibilities should have the audio/video manufacturers rethinking their products. Now that technology is moving so fast, why aren't they making recievers with upgradeable audio/video cards so that the entire unit isn't just a disposable commodity when the consumer wants to upgrade to the newest technology? There's no reason I shouldn't be able to at the very least send my 4802 back to Denon & have a new board installed in it with the connections I want at a fraction of the cost of a new reciever.

Where's our man Tucker? Why if he were around today he'd make a reciever with upgradeable components on it & steal away EVERYONE's business! The first company who does offer this would clean house in my opinion. They'd also get many death threats from the other company's who're still trying to wring every last cent out of the consumer as they can... But the other guys would soon have to offer the same options or go out of business completely I would think.

In this day and age, that sort of capability should be expected, not neglected.

This is the new shampoo for HTPCs

Windows 7 Media Center, Core "i" CPU for bitstreaming, TMT3 BluRay & upscaling DVD software with bitstreaming, MyMovies for Collection management

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18304793&posted=1#post18304793

http://www.mymovies.dk/products.aspx

http://www.arcsoft.com/en-us/index.asp

http://www.slysoft.com/en/anydvdhd.html

And the new Ceton Cablecard Tuner for HTPCs (coming soon)

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/p/78488/438649.aspx#438649

And a WHS & AnyDVDHD for media storage with automated metadata

http://www.mymovies.dk/products/collection-management/online-collection.aspx

Lots of homework for you!

I LOVE this kind of homework though!

Heck I'd already been eyeballing at least $1500 dollars worth of AV equipment (new reciever, Blu-Ray player), so if I could get all the stuff you listed for that much or less, then I'm WAY ahead of the curve. Because I'll have something I can upgrade incrimentally instead of hardware I'll have to throw away in a few years time.

Excellent, thanks for the info! Oh and Grunt, if that was you touting the bennefits of computer HT consoles, I'm sorry I didn't listen earlier... but my ears/eyes are WIDE open now!

Added a few more links and changed a couple for you. I've spent years on this stuff. If you have any questions or want to talk any of it out, just PM me

So have you just researched it so far? Or do you have this system?

I do have Windows 7 Ultimate on my computer, how much is the media center upgrade?

Um, didn't they tell you? This new 3D stuff doesn't work in square rooms...

I have everything listed in my post and in the links (and much much more!). Well xcept the ceton tuner not out yet.

I am happily bitstreaming blurays from my WHS, to my Core I HTPC to AVR to Axioms at will.

Windows Media Center came as part of your W7 ult, in the default program popup menu

My Gear list (from another post in another forum)

HTPC: iCore 5 650, 8 gig memory, Asus H55-M EVO Pro, Win 7 64, intel 40 gb SSD, 1.5 TB WD Green "TV" drive, waiting on the ceton tuner, HDHomerun networked tuner, Dvico USB tuner

The case, Norco 10 bay hot swap drives rack mounted, SSD for OS, 2 drive bays for recorded TV, other 8 drives will be connected to my WHS by SAS connectors, cards and cables. (Haven't bought these 8 drives yet).

Software: W7, TMT3 platinum, AnyDVD HD, and a couple of WMC add-ins

WHS: Gigabyte board, dual core AMD, 4 gb, 500 GB OS drive and 500 gb bckup drive, 6 1.5 TB WD Green Drives, in a Norco 2u rack mount 8 bay hot swap case. All Music, DVDs, Bluerays, photos and data stored on Server with metadata

AVR: Onkyo TX-SR706 Rack mounted with MA faceplate

Gaming: Xbox 360, to be rack mounted no shelf and custom faceplate yet

Whole House Audio: Squeezebox Duet wifi controller and receiver,
Sherwood Amp 4 zome and Onkyo M282? PRO to 5 Zones

Rack: 24 port gigabite switch, a ups forget the specs. Voltage
regulator someday, MA temp gauge, Media dock, MA iDock (cable STB's going away after ceton.)

Speakers: Axiom: Mains-W22s, Center(s) W150/W100, Surrounds QS8s & QS4s, SW-EP500 & a JBL 10" older than ....

Display: Samsung LN52A850S

Bedroom Display: Syntax 32" (and I have the parts to build a rack mounted HTPC for this location, but not complete.

Control: Harmony 1100, Harmony 900, SqueezeBox Duet, Hot link and old HArmony IR for the bedroom and hopefully Droid if someone ever writes the software.

Some other stuff!

Wants: Whole house automation, and finish rack


Did this quick, will update and provide exact specs and complete list.

And 3D is obsolete. Most US and Canadian cell operators are already offering 3G and more...

3H is a holodeck isn't it?

You are sooooo right!


Lol

So what, 4-6 extra ethernet cables is worth the HDMI handshake issues? And you have to know there will be limitations set on that ethernet under an the HDMI config.

I run a 10/100 switch behind all my equipment and it in turn feeds to my main switch in my basement. I make my own cat5E cables to the exact length I need for better management, a few extra cables is no big deal to me. I hope HDMI 1.4 takes a long time before it gets picked up as the standard, sadly I know I am soooo wrong.

Sure it's a good move. Until HDMI 1.5 comes out and you have to replace everything again.

I view Ethernet over HDMI as I do CEC. CEC could be useful for people who want less remotes, but don't want to invest in a universal. Ethernet over HDMI could be useful for people who want their equipment networked together, but don't want to invest in a hub/switch, and cabling.

Does CEC work? Sort of. It's better with newer equipment, from the same maker. But a universal remote is better.

Will Ethernet of HDMI work? I'm guessing it'll be the same boat. I don't think it's inside the HDCP encryption, so at least you won't lose your connection even time you change channels. But a switch is a lot more flexable because it's a true star topology, rather than the point-to-point of HDMI (although if the receiver is able to function as the hub, for both upstream and downstream (sources and displays) then it'll mimic the star pretty well.

I would argue that CEC will never really work since it wasn't standardized and since every manufacturer seemingly has their own implementation. I won't upgrade my gear simply to get ethernet over hdmi but I do think it is a move in the right direction and a feature that people will apreciate. As with anything, only time will tell if it will really work or if it will fail. At this point, on paper, it looks good to me.

Personally, I'm still looking for a quality home wireless router that has a gigabit backbone. 100mpbs is just too slow to use for transferring large files.

Plenty of wireless-n routers have gig-E built in.

I say they just jump straight to HDMI 2 with 20 extra wired built into it to future proof it. They'll find uses for the extra wires over the years, but until then we won't have to continually upgrade our wires every other year.

Although I'm quite sure Monster Cable just loves being able to sell the same consumer a new $150 dollar HDMI cable every time the technology changes.

And receiver, TV, and BD manufacturers love selling consumers a new $1000 item every year, too.

DLink and Linksys are no good? I just bought the Linksys WRT 310N and have no problems and the gigbit ethernet works great. I run my main and 2 others directly off of it and run the HT stuff off the 10/100 switch as I do not stream video through to that stuff yet.

There's also the Apple Airport Extreme or various Netgear models.

DLink is no good.

I run a separate switch (actually two, one in my bedroom with the computers, the other in my living room with the entertainment equipment) from my router.

So it goes, router with Internet connection with one of it's ports connected to a gigabit switch, and then one of those ports runs to my living room's gigabit switch.

I've upgraded switches, but still running the same router over the last few years. Well, the same model, I had one completely fail, but that was also easy to replace without upsetting the rest of my network.

I have a few friends running Dlink with no problems.......so far. I usually stick with Linksys/Cisco.

I had to run a Dlink because the only internet service provider out here in the country (Bridgemaxx) required it. But it works well enough.

My whole home network is D-Link, and it's working well. It's unfair to compare different eras of products, but I used to run an all-Linksys home network, and I've had less trouble with D-Link.

I had a horrible time with a D-Link wireless router several years ago, but like CV says, it's not really fair to compare different eras of products.

A few years ago I wouldn't have mentioned Dlink either, they seem to have improved considerably.

Good to know. I think their prices are still pretty good.

I got a D-Link 24 port GB switch (no management/No POE) from Newegg for $164 last July/August. Been running 24/7 since, not one problem, re-boot, nothing but joy.

somewhat related to the discussion, I have a newcastle r-972 = used it about a month now.

I have some issues. I've dropped use of hdmi temporarily for some sources (I hope) because I'm waiting for handshaking issue to be resolved.

video processing is awesome. I seem to be the only guy on avs forums who cares about v. processing, but I like many shows that I simply can't get in HD, and the processor really takes them up to near HD. Before this unit, i would groan each and every time I switched from ESPN HD to anything from BBC low-def. Now, while aware that it's no longer real HD, I don't really give it a second thought.

Trinnov is fantastic. really. I'm not an expert but I really enjoy listening to everything.

It's nice to hear from someone who actually has one. Even if Outlaw dropped the 997 which would have been close to the R972, I'm glad they're keeping Trinnov for the 998. It's still going to be a tough choice for me when I'm in the market for a new processor, though, since Audyssey's Dynamic EQ gets, by and large, such good comments.

That's basically what I have for my main switch, but it was before the green models that use less power for shorter cable runs.

I just received a link to the new SN-972 review with Trinnov from S&V mag.

Cheers,

Thanks, Dan.

This made me laugh...

Yeah, I liked that one too.