Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Martin Logans - Spectacular Realism

So, I was hanging at my local Best Buy choosing between the new Samsung Moment cell phone, Droid, and Crackberry. The cell phone area was right next to the Magnolia apse. After a while I realized I was hearing spectacular music reproduction. I took a look and saw a pair of modestly sized Martin Logan electrostats.

I wandered over and checked the Pioneer Elite receiver. I think the source was a Pioneer BluRay player. There was a DVD music disc of a wonderful jazz performance, some male vocalist I do not know, some wonderful trumpet solos. These Martin Logans were incredible. The realism was superior to anything I have heard for quite a while.

I ordered a Music Hall MMF 2.2LE turntable today. {Glossy white, Goldring made cartridge) So, while I was at Magnolia stunned into pleasure by the Martin Logans, I noticed they had a Pro-Ject Debut III table paired with some wimpy looking Mirage, I dunno, minitowers and a Mirage mini sub, and the sound was ... mini. Since the 2.2LE is made in the same factory as the Debut III, and comparable, I was fairly bummed and now looking forward with some unease to receiving my newest audio experimental devices.

I still need to hear some electrostats. I should have actually tried to listen to some stuff when I was in a Magnolia Best Buy recently. Duh.

Which Martin Logan’s were they? I see at least two different ones listed on the BB web site.

Best Buy

I listened to some electostats at a magnolia store once. I can say that they sounded good, but I wasn't overly impressed with them.

Hello Mr. Grunt

OK, so I called Magnolia, hooked up with Amir, a very nice and knowledgeable sales person, who gave me the lowdown.

The Martin Logans I heard were standing out in the middle of the Magnolia apse firing into a huge space [warehouse size]. There was no subwoofer. The sound was electrifyingly good. The music was a Kris Botti live in Boston BluRay playing through a Pioneer Elite SC25 receiver and Pioneer BluRay player.

The Martin Logans were the middle of the entry level range of models - called the "Source."

These speakers are special. The Purities are two levels better. I'm going in for a listen next week.

And there's the reason they sounded so good. Dipole speakers are so picky about reflections off of the wall behind them. Get rid of the wall, get rid of the placement issues.

Please post your impressions I’m interested in reading them. I’ve always wanted to demo some electro static speakers since I first heard them years ago. Might just have to go out and do that.

Realism. That is the only standard by which to judge audio equipment reproducing source material.

What caught my attention was the way these speakers reproduced horns and piano. To my ears, almost all systems fall down when it comes to reproducing horns. Their frequency response curves may be flat, but there is something usually missing. With these Martin Logans, I was hearing it. Blatt, fullness, saliva in the mouthpiece, I dunno, whatever it was, it was not missing. I liked it.

So, then one of the sales people, whose situational awareness correctly identified me as interested, turned the volume up ... way up, painfully up. But, although a bit bright on top, they held up. I was kind of shocked. I turned the volume way down, and interestinly, they still held up at low volume. Sweet sounding.

So, how good were they? They had the sweet fullness and sense of live music that I associate with the best tube equipment and speakers. However, to say I did not do any critical listening is an understatement.

I blew one of my amps in my big system (Yamaha M80) so I have not listened to my Thiel CS3.6s for some time. I can't say for sure, but I think the Martin Logans may be better than the Thiels.

Future Shop carries ML speakers now, I'm curious to hear them as well.

Now all you need is a cavernous space in which to blast them and you're set. I know you're out in SoCal -- land of few basements -- but you could start excavating a subterranean, acoustically ideal lair specifically for the enjoyment of these Martin Logans (or their big brothers).

You get excited about products often, but I have not seen you like this since you first told us about your Njoe Tjoeb. Clearly, a purchase must be made. Underground lair is optional, of course.

pmb, thanks for your weasel comment.

You know what? For once, I was going out of my way NOT to be snarky. You should know by now that most of my posts are salted with at least a little facetiousness. Beyond that seasoning, I was attempting to show you that I am impressed by your enthusiasm for this product and was recommending that you take advantage of the visceral connection you have made with them. Wouldn't it be great if you could build that lair, though?


Weasels do live underground, I guess. Is that where your response was coming from?

I was going to ask you guys to wait until I went out and bought some popcorn from my local Food Basics, but I decided to stay out of this, which, if you knew me, is actually not easy....carry on(I do have some granola bars in the cupboard).

I bought my Ah! Njoe Tjoeb CD player in early 2003. I did say I liked it. That was almost exactly 7 years ago.

Someone who gets "excited about products often," may be thought of as a breathless dilittante who rushes from one next best thing to the next, a person whose opinion, by necessary implication, is not really valuable.

So, you really give yourself too much credit when you say you were trying not be snarky, for once.

This thread was about audio until you made it about me, like you do with all my threads.

You're a sniper.

Your a stick in the eye troll. That was a very reasonable post by Peter. I don't get you. You seem to go our of your way to find insult in what people post. You know, you might find avsforum.com more to your liking. Ignored.

Anyway, the Martin Logans are spectacularly realistic - they reproduce horns and piano very realistically ... they sound very much like live music.

I'll be auditioning the Purities next week. I'll let you know my impressions.

I'm also going to find that Chris Botti Live in Boston music DVD.

I've heard a few pairs of ML's. I've never been that impressed. Too bright for my taste.

I think I'll go hit up a few Chevy forums and make a few posts about how amazing my Audi is. That'll show 'em.

I got the blu-ray version on amazon some time ago. It is outstanding. I've got most of his music. I'm not really into Jazz, but I do like his music.

If you like that type of music, and want to hear more, and internet radio, "The Wave" a Los angelas station does pretty well, They have lately gone a bit more mainstream, but still a nice mix, If I recall 95.7 (in the really old days this was a major rock station) now all smooth jazz.

I think The Wave is 94.7, if I remember correctly. I could never stand it when I lived there. Smooth, formulaic jazz. I moved out of the area in mid 1995, though, so that was ages ago.

Your right on the call numbers .. as far as the music when they switch to jazz in 85? they were unnique and I heard a lot of incredible new music on that station. Like I said I think now a days commerial but still a nice resource

2x6,

What is your current setup?

I mentioned earlier that I wasn't that impressed with the electrostatics. But others were. It must have all been in the source material. For me, the store was playing some Beatles on vinyl. I didn't get to hear any horns.

As I mentioned earlier, electrostatics, and other dipolar speakers, are very sensitive to their surroundings. A long while, ago, 1996 or so, I got to hear two different setups when I was living in Florida and spending too much time in computer/electronics stores. After hearing the first set, in a beautiful, huge home I was completely shocked at how good they sounded. A couple weeks later, still going on about these "planer" speakers I heard someone else mentioned having a pair, and would I like to hear his setup. I jumped at the chance to hear them again. This time they were muddy, unfocused, not at all like I remembered, but this room was tiny and the speakers were only about a foot from the rear wall.

It wasn't until I was back home in Maryland, that I started researching electrostats, and other planar designs. What I found told me that they weren't for me. All sound reproduction is influenced by the room in some degree. But the level of interaction with speaker which emit equal amplitude pressure waves from the rear 180° out of phase are just too finicky for use in anything but a dedicated, stereo room. As I'm a big fan of movies, multi-channel sound, and DSP ambiance extraction, there's not much reason for me to try to extract phase information with speakers alone, when Dolby does the same job (can't wait to get a IIz processor) with more flexible speaker designs.

Ah, Mr. Sroode, glad to talk about audio stuff.

Office system: Anthem PVA 5 amplifier, the spectacular Sony TA E9000ES processor, Sony DVP S7000 DVD player, Axiom VP150, Michaura M665s (like the Axiom M60s 2 x 6.5" Axiom drivers, 1x 5.25" Axiom driver and Axiom 0.75" titanium tweeter (as found in the old M2s)), some supertweeters atop the M665s, a pair of Mission DS77 surround speakers and a Dahlquist PDQ1500 subwoofer.

I love this system.

HT system: 3 Yamaha M80 2 channel amps, Integra M504 2 channel amp, Integra DTC 9.4 processor, Toshiba SD9200 DVD-A, Thiel CS 3.7 mains, modified Merak MC6 center with a pair of Axiom 6.5" aluminum drivers and tweeter and x-over from a Reference 3a mm de capo speaker and super tweeter, Axiom QS8 side surrounds, Michaura M55 (like the M22Ti) back surrounds, SVS 20-39 subwoofer.

It's great, but I blew one of the Yamahas, so I just use the audio from the Mitsubishi Diamond 65" which sounds really good.

Dining room system: modified Sonic Impact T-Amp, Sony CA9ES CDP, 2 Michaura M55s, Velodyne CHT10 subwoofer.

Laughably musical for a $25 amp.

Living room system: Kenwood KA9100 integrated amp, Ah! Njoe Tjoeb tube output CDP, Dahlquist DQM 905 speakers with supertweeters, modified Kenwood SW300 subwoofer. I haven't set this up yet, as most of the pieces were my garage system, but I pulled the output terminal from my Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15 DT amp when I removed the interconnects. I must say that Divergent Technologies, the importer, has been no help providing me with a replacement part or info of a comparable part.

I ordered a Music Hall MMF 2.2LE turntable with a Goldring made Tracker cartridge which should be here next week. I'll hook it up in the living room.

I have a pair of Michaura M66s (incredibly good speakers, like the M50, but I like them better than my old M50s) which I'll swap into one of the systems.

My garage system will be, once the ASL amp is fixed, the SET tube amp, Scott tube tuner, a pair of M22Tis, and the Vance Dickason Titanic subwoofer.

Love to listen to all of them.

I remeber seeing the Integra M504 at Circuit City in my younger days wishing I could afford it. I really liked the analog meters on the unit. In college, I saved up enough to buy it's little brother (I forgot the model number, but it was the 150W/Channel version without the meters). Much cheaper, but I wanted the bling of the meters back then.

I came close to pulling the trigger on the SVS 20-39 sub, but decided to go with the Axiom EP500s instead at the last minute. I have a thing about keeping all my speakers by the same manufacturer if possible.

It's the meters.

I keep an eye out for the big Technics because those are some better meters.

I’ve heard the ML’s you have 2X…. I’ve heard other electrostatic speakers as well. I found all of them to be flat and lifeless. I did not like them at all. Your comments have inspired a new interest to give them another shake. I know that others have posted similar praise for this type of speaker and I never understood why anyone would like them. I think Wid likes them…..? Every place I have heard them have been smaller rooms with several other speakers. I have not heard them in a larger open space. Maybe that’s why??

I've heard MLs at my boss's house. Not my favorite speakers by a long shot (or his, for that matter). Of course, his placement was undoubtedly bad, and I wasn't particularly fond of his music.

Historically, I've been much more impressed by Magnepans. And, well, M80s backed by huge amps.

It's unfortunate that there are probably some very good speakers out there which get a bad rap simply because they are placement sensitive. I think most of these electrostatic, magneplanar and also omni-directional speakers fall into that category...when set up properly, I'm sure they sound quite good, but I've yet to hear any of these(heard some small Mirages and thought they sounded very good).

Ditto on the Magnepan impressions. I had the pleasure of hearing them both in a showroom and at a former regular board member's house outside of Dallas. Anyone remember mwc?

Yes!

I haven't heard any electrostats in a 'normal' environment - 8'-10" ceilings and near a wall.

I think the environment in which the Martin Logans were playing would be very challenging for conventional speakers.

There was nothing flat about the MLs firing into that large space. When they cranked the volume to levels far higher than the material which was recorded, they did get a bit bright ... shrill actually. However at normal listening levels they reproduced music in a spectacularly realistic manner.

Is this amp pure audio eye candy or what?

My first amp was a technics, and that looks like I know it . but I would never know for sure

Of course, there was also the SA E5000


the SA E3000


the SA E2000


and the SA E1010


and the SA E3

I think a rack of 4 of the SE A7000s would be quite the sight.

What about the backside?

Charles, I always thought you were a boob guy, not an *ss guy?

You're right on that, but I'm watching out for my bros with different inclinations.

What exactly do you mean " xover from Reference 3a MM De Capo"?

Daniel Dehay is a longstanding professional aquiantance, and his designs are some of the best ever heard.
The Diverg Tech offices are close by, and they have always been responsive and eager to chat!!

I purchased 2 reference 3a de capo mm cross-overs and tweeters from ebay. The reference 3a speakers, like the M3Ti permits the driver to roll off mechanically. I used the trapezoidal cabinet from a Merak MC634, swapped in a pair of Axiom 6.5" aluminum drivers in place of the Kevlar or whatever "Axiom" speakers were in place before, had an operation performed on the cabinet and slipped in the domed tweeter from the Reference 3a and its x-over or whatever was attached to the tweeter.

For some reason, it sounds great. I call it my Frankenspeaker.

I agree, the Reference 3a de capos are spectacular sounding speakers.

If you see Tash Goka, from Divergent, please ask him to at least respond to my emails about the binding posts which came apart from my Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT amplifier when I removed the interconnects.

I am not sure what you bought, but Reference 3a speakers are known for the simplistic design of xovers - with simply capacitors used to keep low freq. from destroying the tweeters....

I will mention your emails the next time I see Tash

I only used one. I'll try to find the other and take a picture. It consists of a capacitor and an induction coil as I recall. Maybe a resistor as well. It's hooked to the tweeter.
The driver(s) roll off mechanically.

Well, I had already decided....if I ever get another set of speakers (other than from Axiom) they will be Martin-Logan's.

OK, here is a picture of the Frankenspeaker with a pair of Axiom 6.5" drivers and the Reference 3a de capo mm soft dome tweeter.

[img][/img]

I believe the x-over (cap attached to a tweeter) is in the lower right of my stuff container.

[img][/img]

As long as I'm posting pictures, here is the new turntable and the spectacular KA9100 integrated amplifier and Sony FM tuner.

[img][/img]

Hello heavy chevy V8

I agree. I think I'd be very happy with a pair of those Martin Logans also.

Hi Mike

I hope that answered your questions. Please give my regards to Tash, ask him if he has any extras of these so I can use my amp again:

[img][/img]

Those little widgies stick in the interconnects. Maybe Tash can find a few extras. Must be a common problem for Antique Sound Labs tube amps. They do sound great until you can't use them anymore because the bits and pieces fall off.

I have a Sony tuner that looks a lot like the one in the pic. Bought it new in the mid 80s and it's been sitting in my closet for at least 10 years.

I'll most likely sell it as I really don't need it.

What model Sony tuner, Wid?

It's a ST-S211.

BTW, the manual has a date of 1993 on it.

I don't know that tuner.