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which speaker system to go with?
#30126 01/08/04 03:00 PM
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I am currently running an H/K AVR320 with some old bose cubes and I can't take it anymore! I need some pro advice on which speaker system to up grade to. I have a 12X16 room with hardwood floors,large rug, recliners ect. I have the entertainment center on the long wall so my listening position is @10' away. My mix is 65/35 movies to music. What does anyone think of the following:
system 1 M50ti towers,
system 2 M3ti's with a velodyne 8'' sub
I'm trying to stay under $700
thanks for your thoughts

Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30127 01/08/04 03:43 PM
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You want pro advice?
Well Alan is on vacation but if you can stand some amateur advice, then you're asking the right people.

Your present selections sound excellent. You could go with either the towers or the bookshelf style speakers for a room that size but i would not recommend the M60s or anything larger. My own room is of equal dimensions and i've found it a real pain to get them tweaked right. The smallish sized room makes it much harder to move the speakers around and create a really good, wide soundstage.
If you are interested in keeping the cost down, go with the M3s route with a sub and do the Axiom 30 day audition. If you prefer a larger sound after you've heard the speakers, then consider returning the M3s within the 30 days (full refund) and order the M50s.
If you don't like the Axiom sound at all, return the M3s and you will need to start shopping around again.

Just to note, before too many jump in here, the M2s (and the M22s but possibly beyond what you want to pay) will have a slightly more detailed upper end (higher sound frequencies) over the M3 but the M3 produces a tad more in the bass department.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30128 01/08/04 04:40 PM
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Are you going to have a center channel? I couldn't tell from the post.

I have M60s like Cheseroo. I absolutely love them, but do recommend being able to sit at least 8' away from them. We sit about 10' away, and 10-12' seems optimal, since if you are normally 10', the reality is you are often 6-8' away, you or a guest or child. 8' works fine for me, with the M60s themselves spaced about 7.5' away from each other on either side of the TV - it's great.

The advantage of the M60s is they are wonderful on music without any sub. But unless you anticipate spending over $700 and being 8' or more back, pass.

If you want/need a center, which is of course highly recommended for HT viewing with your AV receiver, then an economical setup would be three M3s ($413 USD, with one as a center) using some of your old speakers as surrounds ($0) OR three M2s (about $380 USD) in the same configuration.

Another reasonably priced option: 2 M22s as mains ($400), an M2 as a center (about $130), your old speakers as surrounds, and then pop for a sub. The advantage here is that in the M22 you would be buying one of the most highly regarded bookshelves under $800 to use as your mains. This is the route I would go, though I have never heard the M50 and for all I know it is the second coming. I just personally do not like floorstanders unless they are over 36" because I hate to be below the tweeter axis, and in a smaller room that's an even stronger consideration.

As far as a sub goes, my personal bias is not to use them for music, especially on a budget set-up, which is another reason to try M22s or M3s as your mains. An advantage to this approach is that instead of spending money TRYING to get a budget-"musical" sub, you can be straightforward and get a budget-HT sub, which widens your options and lowers your price range considerably. Any number of about $200 subs highly regarded at audioreview.com and other sites will fit the HT bill in your room, and (again my bias) your music listening sessions will be better without a sub, at least in the set-up you're heading towards.

If you want to get a sub that can work for music (and many on this forum would support this pursuit), my sense is they start around $400, with the Hsu STF-2 (I own one of these but for HT) being highly touted. This takes you over budget however -- and again, MY BIAS, but I'd spend your limited budget on (in order) 1. great mains, 2. matching center channel or a main that timbre matches as a center like the M2 (with M22) or M3 (with M3s as mains), 3. HT-oriented sub for your movies choosing from reasonably priced well reviewed for HT subs, like the Velodyne you anticipate or even an Infinity, Yamaha, or Sony available at BestBuy. If you resolve the sub-for-HT thing inexpensively enough, you may even have money left over for matching surrounds, like M2s or another set of M3s, but this should be the final consideration on your budget.
Birdman


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Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30129 01/08/04 05:03 PM
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That room size does indeed open up numerous possibilities. It's not too big, but it's not all that small either.

Here are some suggestions, in order of how I would decide.

#1 - M22ti (from Outlet) & Hsu STF-2 - $759
#2 - M2i (from Outlet) & Hsu STF-2 - $629
#3 - M40 (from Outlet) & Hsu STF-2 - $816

You'll note two constants in my choices. First, order your speakers through the Axiom Outlet, and second, Hsu is the place to get your subwoofer. Why? Axiom's factory outlet will save you 10-20%, and you'll likely not even find the "blemish". If you do, it'll be so slight, you won't believe it. Regarding my subwoofer choice, Hsu makes the best subs at the best prices, and isn't that what we're all looking for?

Why didn't I choose the M3ti? I just think that speaker is better suited as a small room 2 channel stereo speaker for bedroom music. Nice, clean, mellow, and with enough bass that in a small room, you'd be happy without a sub. That's not what you're looking for though.

In response to Austinbird's idea of no sub, or cheap sub I must give a resounding NO! I had a cheap sub. It SUCKED. It did little for movies, and made music sound like crap. Seriously, don't skimp on your sub. (Sorry Austin, we all have different opinions. )

He did bring up a good point though. What are your plans for the center channel and surrounds? If you need to purchase the entire setup, I'd do mains first, subwoofer second, center third and surrounds last. Why the sub before the center? You can "fake" a phantom center, you can't fake good low end.

I know your budget was $700, if that's the case and you need a entirely new setup, get what you can for $700 now, and save up for the rest later. DO NOT buy an entire system for $700. You'll hate yourself for doing it, and you'll end up buying all new gear again later, because you'll never be happy with what you purchased. Trust me.

Last edited by spiffnme; 01/08/04 05:12 PM.
Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30130 01/08/04 06:35 PM
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This is all good advice.

I agree with Craig (spiffnme) about the sub; don't skimp. If you're going to get one, go ahead and get a decent one.

I run M60's with no sub currently. I am VERY satisfied on a couple of levels. First, I have absolutely no buyers remorse. I do not (and will not) wonder "what if..." relative to my mains. Second, I have a very clear and efficient upgrade path - add a good sub. Until that upgrade, I am treated to sublime music and more than adequate (if not impactful) movie sound. I was set on floor-standers and thought long and hard about the M50's; while I have not heard them, ultimately, I decided that I would have always wondered if I made the right choice by saving a little money in the short term. I adore the M60's; they give me goosebumps every day.

Placement is an issue, though. I *wanted* big boxes. You (and perhaps your SO) are used to itty-bitty boxes. My own situation was that I dislike the risk and aesthetic of stands and feel that floor-standers really don't take up more space than small speakers on stands. Optimizing the sound of ANY Axiom (or other ported speaker) means positioning them well; inside a bookshelf would be problematic.

Considering your room size and penchant for movies, I'd go with the M22's and STF-2 right now, phantom the center and use the old speakers for surrounds. That is, IF you are amenable to stands or can place the M22's well. Then, get some QS4 or QS8's, and then get a VP100 or VP150 later. You'll be delighted with each upgrade, end up with a great system in the end, enjoy it "in the now", and have no waste.

I want to assure you that going from Bose to Axiom mains is going to be a very meaningful difference. You're going to have a really satsified smile on your face when you hear it.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30131 01/08/04 07:07 PM
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In reply to:

going from Bose to Axiom mains is going to be a very meaningful difference



Now there's another well phrased statement on the variation in speaker sound that is neutral yet positive.
Spiff and tom are on a roll.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30132 01/08/04 08:51 PM
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Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30133 01/08/04 09:36 PM
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Thanks for all the great ideas! this is very helpful sight.
I forgot to mention before that I am running an Infinity Alpha center with Alantic Technology surrounds. I would really like to go with the floor standing models because my alternative would be to place the M3's or M2's on the top of my entertainment center angled down. The M60 looks like a pretty impressive speaker. I would have to place these directly and the ends of the ET center angled in slightly. Do you think this would be over kill for my room size?

Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30134 01/08/04 09:47 PM
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Kracken, you certainly can fit the M60s in that room. As i mentioned, mine is very similar in size. However be prepared to tweak and tweak and tweak.
You may fuss to no end.
I recently brought my Axioms over to a friend's place last week over New Year's. The difference in placement and room acoustics in his basement compared to mine was stunning. He had a slightly larger room and obviously some different interior design.
The next time we select a room for the M60s, it is my preference to have one larger and with a better build than a horrible drop ceiling.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30135 01/08/04 11:12 PM
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Ah--now you're discovering the joys of this hobby. I'm relatively new at this myself, but I think I might be able to confuse, I mean *help*, you a bit more.

One of the beautiful things about audio/video is that you can always upgrade as your listening preferences and budget allow. Since you already have a center and surrounds, I would go with a pair of bookshelves and an inexpensive subwoofer. If you do listen to a 65/35 mix in favor of HT, you will definitely want a sub in your setup--it changes everything!

I know a lot of people on these boards swear by Hsu or SVS, so I recognize that I risk being stoned to death by saying the following. My sub is the Dayton Audio Titanic from Parts Express designed by Vance Dickason. It comes in kit form, so you have to do some basic assembly (about 1 hr), but for $350, you get incredible 250-watt bass that sounds like it costs triple the price. I use mine for HT and stereo with my M60s, and my father uses the same one with his Magnepans for stereo--we are both thrilled with the value of this subwoofer. All I know is that it works well enough for my Hispanic neighbors to complain that I play my Santana CDs too loud.

With your remaining $350, I would get a pair of bookshelves from the Axiom outlet (pick your favorite). You should have no problem with bookshelves in your size room if your amp can drive 'em. One caveat here: the Axioms will sound a *lot* more open and detailed than the Infinity center channel, so you may not get great timbre matching. It may also not work out so hot for movie effects that pan across the front of the room (like the jets in Top Gun). Use your judgment here. This is a problem you can correct later with an Axiom center channel if you find it necessary to do so.

The back surrounds are almost a non-issue. I use Infinity Studio Monitors that I've had for a few years, and they work just fine.

I hope this helps. I'm relatively young, so I know what it's like to try to get started on a budget. Regardless of what you do, most anything is going to sound better than the Bose cubes. Just be patient, and most importantly, have fun!


Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30136 01/08/04 11:48 PM
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I've heard good things about the Parts Express DIY sub.

What Maggies does your father have?


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Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30137 01/09/04 12:01 AM
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I've heard good things about the Dickason Titanic sub, too. I think 2x6spds has one; perhaps he will chime in. I believe Parts Express is in the process of updating this model to the new driver series. Now, they call it the Titanic MKIII Subwoofer Kit

Lots of people have Adire Shiva subs, too, which can be had in about that same price range. Like sages of this board have long commented, the challenge is not to get a "good one", the challenge is to get a good one at a good price. I've yet to hear any sub cheaper than ~$350 that I thought would be worth the money saved. It's not "cheaper" if you become dissatisfied in a short period and have to replace it.

Another issue for me is the form-factor. God knows theories abound on the topic, but I don't subscribe to the notion that it matters *sonically* if the sub is down-firing or front-firing. However, it matters very much to me on a livability standpoint; I'm only entertaining the notion of a down-firing sub in my child- and dog-infested abode. The less fur- and grape-juice-attracting grill cloth I have to maintain, the better.



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Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30138 01/09/04 12:18 AM
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In reply to:

I'm only entertaining the notion of a down-firing sub in my child- and dog-infested abode. The less fur- and grape-juice-attracting grill cloth I have to maintain, the better.




Amen brother!



Panasonic TC-P50G15, DMP-BD60
Yamaha RX-V1400
Axiom M60's,VP150,QS8's
Hsu VTF2
Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30139 01/09/04 12:39 AM
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I second Tom's thoughts (and previous ones).



"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30140 01/09/04 01:25 AM
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Ah, the magic of a sealed enclosure with a metal grill over the woofer.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: which speaker system to go with?
#30141 01/09/04 03:11 AM
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"However, it matters very much to me on a livability standpoint; I'm only entertaining the notion of a down-firing sub in my child- and dog-infested abode. The less fur- and grape-juice-attracting grill cloth I have to maintain, the better. "

LOL! I'm sorry for not adding much to the thread, but, that phrase sums up my entire purchasing path so far! Its not ideal sonically, but, everything that can be mounted must be. Ported towers will only attract cheerios and hot wheels cars!!!

classic...

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