Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler Any coffee geeks here?

Over the past ten years or so, I’ve progressed from drinking two pots of disgustingly dark and thick military brew, to better drip, to a French press, to super-automatic machines to my latest over the top purchase of a semi-auto machine and grinder. I am officially a coffee geek now. I have a new found respect for baristas that can pull a good shot, shot after shot. I can’t…..yet.

Anyone else taken this path who has a pallet for a really good cup of espresso? If so, a thread for sharing tips, advice and bean recommendations may be in order.

Can't help you there Mike, after all of these years I just did start drinking coffee a month or so ago and I'm trying to figure if I like straight black or with cream and sugar.

I'm too cheap to buy a semi-automatic machine and too lazy to pull shots manually.

I drink about a quart of good drip coffee (black) a day.

I keep trying to find coffee I like better than good Columbian, but I haven't found it, yet.

Ditto Tom on his last two counts.

I never seem to drink coffee in its pure form, but I do like coffee-flavored things. I like a good coffee ice cream. I'm sure this makes me a coffee blasphemer.

Mark, I'm glad the sig is lasting as long as it is. It still cracks me up.

I've turned into quite the coffee connoisseur. I was actually perusing web sites yesterday looking for some fair trade organic whole beans.

Although nothing to special, this is what I have for a coffee maker. Freshly ground whole bean coffee sure does make a difference. The aroma alone is something to desire.

As far as beans go, I've been buying my coffee from Costco, and it's actually really good.

We tend to drink what I refer to as "hot coffee ice cream." Lots of cream, lots of sugar, weak coffee. However, the better the coffee is, the better this tastes. We tend to buy Caribou coffees, light to medium roast.

Kirkland is a real a good brand imo Cam. For every day drinking I don't bother to buy anything special. On occasion we get a gourmet brand. Last time we bought some from Traders Joes house brand, it was quite good.

Our coffee machine is a Bunn. That's the only brand we have had in the past 20 years or so. They seem to last a lot longer than the others.

I just came across this web site. I haven't checked it out to see what it has to offer, as I've literally just stumbled across it, but it looks like it has a wealth of information.

If you are interested in getting into making quality espresso, it takes a commitment. First you need to be willing to spend a little cash. Trying to get a quality espresso out of a $100 investment is just not going to cut it. Research, research and do more research.

1) Source good quality beans - online shopping comes in very handy here.

2) Espresso Machine - There are a few entry level models by Saeco, Rancilio Silvia that are quality machines but do have a learning curve and require practice.

3) Grinder - often the most overlooked area and one of the most important steps to making a quality shot.

4) Trial, Error and Patience - Mistakes are good. In the end your hard work will be paid of with very high quality coffee but this part requires commitment.

If your not willing to do the work or get bored of new things quickly I wouldn't recommend investing money into espresso.

Coffee geek here. I've graduated to a Silvia machine (from a Krups then Gaggia Evolution) and a Rocky grinder. I agree, the grinder is definitely NOT the place to skimp. If you have to, get a manual Zassenhaus to tide you over. I got the Silvia just in case I wanted to hack it w/ PID control. Haven't gone that far yet.

As far as beans, I'm also in the fair trade side. For Ken in SF, I'd HIGHLY recommend Ritual Roasters on Valencia. Their Sweet Tooth Espresso can be heavenly. So complex with tons of flavor. They do mail as well. Barefoot in the South Bay is my fav. They do mail order and I'd recommend the Element 114 or Sweetness if you have patience to get the draw just right.

For canned, you can't beat Illy. I always liked that.

And for the newbies, you could always start w/ a stove top Moka pot. The French have used it for years, and it's one thing I'd agree w/ them on. Great for traveling and camping.

I also do Arabic coffee (with the cardamum). I get it when I or my friends go to Israel. I have an iBrick and it takes some practices (and mess) to get it right but it's a strong coffee that puts hair on your chest.

I stopped drinking coffee for the most part, because I've come to prefer tea. But the best beans I ever had came from CoffeeFool.

I get my tea from The Republic of Tea, if anyone else has that preference.

I bought a LaSpaziale Vivaldi II and a Barista Vario grinder. A lot more than I was planning to spend. The quality of my shots is vastly superior to the shots I was getting from a super automatic.

The only fresh roasted beans I've tried so far are from Paridise. Great stuff. I'll try your recomendations above.

What exactly is an Arabic coffee?

It's also known as Turkish coffee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_coffee

My Israeli friend went to Greece and ordered Turkish coffee. I'm not from that side of the world but I know BETTER than to ask that. He got the 'look' and they told him he should just call it 'coffee'.

It's a strong cup of coffee that can be sweetened by 'cooking' it w/ sugar. It ends up w/ a muddy residue (which you don't drink). It's espresso on acid. I LOVE strong coffee and this is what I drink when I can afford staying awake.

I say strong because I know lots of people that go to Peet's for strong coffee because they think Starbuck's is too 'light'. Peet's barely has even any taste for me. I definitely prefer my own coffee and miss it when I'm on vacation.

I consider myself a bit of an espresso geek.

Gaggia Classic + Gaggia MDF Grider for me. Got 'em both on sale from WholeLatteLove.com about four years ago. Debated between those and the Rancillio Silvia + Rocky combo, but went with the Gaggia's because they were a little less $$$. I've used them to make at least a pair of double/triple-shot lattes every working day since I've owned them. One for me, one for my wife. It was about $700 for the machines. No, not inexpensive, but compared to what we would have spent on Starbucks or at other coffee shops, they've actually paid for themselves two or three times over by now.

I'm pretty good at consistently banging out shots that are nearly entirely thick & rich tiger-striped crema. Thought it took about 3 months of daily practice to hone in on the right grind & tamp pressure settings.

It's all up to the quality of the beans & roast. I'm pretty picky about my beans these days. I've got about four specialty roasters from whom I order beans; Northwest Coffee Roasting and Kaldi Coffee Company from St. Louis, MO, Metropolis Coffee Roasting from Chicago, IL, or Kind Coffee in Estes Park, CO. All four offer, IMHO, exquisite and flavorful beans roasted absolutely perfectly at reasonable prices.

Jeezus, I hope so. For that kind of money, the thing should dispense something ending in "-job".

We have a Solis conical burr grinder that we've been using every day for many years. Good little machine.

Wholelattelove is a great site. I got my Evolution as a refurb. If you keep an eye out on the site, you can get some good deals if you don't mind the refurbs.

I'm no connoisseur but I do enjoy a dark blend that isn't to bitter. I've perfected this match up at a local farmers market where they allow you to mix the beans. Every coffee roaster is different but with him I blend a Sumatran roast(on the dark side of medium dark) that has some secret squirrel spices mixed in with a much lighter Caribbean roast that takes some of the bitterness away leaving a strong but smooth coffee drink.

All fair trade beans as well.

Curious,
Has anyone ever smelled the aroma that comes from large scale bean roasting. It is not at all pleasant like the smell of the final product. All I can say is that it reminds me of when I used to work at a hospital on the days they used to superheat the giant boiler plant and burners were rigged to dispose of....well.... leftovers.... of a hospital type nature.

Many years ago, I used to vacation in Venezuela. The fresh coffee there was incredible, so much better than anything I've had before or since, strong pure flavour with little/no bitterness and pennies a cup.

Best cappucino I've had was in Holland. I had no idea those could be so tasty. The American ones tend to be so bitter and burnt tasting.

It must have been the copper pennies in the cup that reduced the bitterness. <grin>

Actually Bolivars

BTW, gas was the equivalent of about $0.05 per gallon in Venezuela, at that time.

I'm gonna sound like a coffee newbie, but I've taken a liking to the Cracker Barrel offerings. Creamy and smooth. The flavored offerings aren't too bad either. Yeah, I know it's preground and not exotic, but it's tasty!

Hawaiian Kona, Jamaican Blue Mountain.

Those will spin your propellers hard and taste great.

Blue Mountain claims to be produce the finest coffee beans in the world.

There are some crazy ways to brew coffee.

From familiar, yet geeky: http://vimeo.com/6161817

to way out there: http://www.vimeo.com/8977253

Many more here: http://www.brewmethods.com/

Sean, you got me beat. I've never set foot in a Starbucks or similar.

I do have one of those Cuisinart Grind and Brew into the carafe things, but I just put Sam's Club-brand beans into it.

Hey, wait:

I do mix it half and half between regular and decaf beans. Does that make me a barista?

Never been in a Starbucks or the like either. Can’t stand coffee not even the smell of it.

What about tea, or are you breaking Chris's heart, too?

Love tea of all kinds. Have a couple cups of green tea every day. Drink anywhere from a quart to a gallon and a half or so of sun tea every day. Usually several other kinds of tea every day also.

I like the green tea as well, prefer the flavour of it over black tea, actually. I've found white tea to be too mild, although on the health-o-meter it's much better than any of the other teas apparently. Also like the peppermint tea, good for your digestion.

Anise flavoured alchoholic beverages like chilled black Sambuca (yummy!) and Absinthe are excellent digestives. The great thing about tea is that it goes down so well no matter how you are feeling.

Unless it's Chai Tea. That stuff makes me want to hurl tea bags.

I like Chai Tea on occasion - not a everyday tea for sure. My least favorite is Rooibos and Earl Grey. Not too fond of regular green tea either.

Yeah, tea here too.

All pinkies extended, I presume.

I'm a fan of rooibos, myself. I was introduced to it with this lovely tea:
http://www.republicoftea.com/templates/detail.asp?navID=313

I love chais. Not so fond of herbal teas or standard black teas, in general.

When you come on down to Medic8r Manor, I'll get you hooked on sweet tea.

No doubt, especially if it is mixed with some Stoli.

Oh dear, the sleeping pedant has awoken again. "Chai" is the Indian word for tea. In the Western world we've taken it to mean tea with spices, sugar and milk. Still there's no need to say "chai tea", as that means "tea tea".

Peter, did you find the Republic before or after I first mentioned it here? They do have such excellent tea though, I've tried other brands since discovering them, but have always come back. I'm done exploring now, and will just stay with them.

The Republic's Green Chai is one of my favorites, but I make it without milk (I simply will not tolerate lactose). Still add sugar, though, that seems to bring out the spices even more.

Yeah, I've noticed that the sweeter I make it, the more spiced it is. I shall avoid calling it "chai tea" in the future.

I only get the urge to drink chai tea while I'm wiring with plenum cable.... Anyone else?

I once ordered chai tea from the cafe at the La Brea Tar Pits. I paid by entering my ATM PIN number on the keypad.

Good thing the NIC card on this ATM machine PIN number keypad was functionally operational.

People say these kinds of verbal mistakes on a regular daily basis.

Naturally while they're speaking, of course.

Thanks Peter.

Have any tips to share for pulling a consistent shot? I’m just learning and my shots are all over the board. I am using between 16-18 grams of coffee, attempting to use 30 pounds of tamping pressure and shooting for 30 seconds to get a 2.5 oz double, which includes the cap of crema.

I had a hell of time with the tamp. I ended up buying one of those tamping mats that clicks when you reach your adjust pressure. I had to take the silly thing to the gym and use dumbbells to set it for 30 pounds, but it does help some. I still manage to screw up the tamps though….

I’ll have to try your sources of beans. Any particular roasts I should try first? I’m really not sure exactly what characteristics I prefer yet. My morning drink is a 16 oz latte. Two double shots of espresso and some combination of flavoring. I usually throw a scoop of white chocolate powder in. On my days off or evenings, I drink latte’s without any flavoring or just straight espresso. The one thing I do not like, is a bitter finish.

You tea toddling, crumpet munching, doily making sissies start your own thread…. .

Now, that was awesome. Thanks guys.

In my car forum I recently came across someone saying "manual brakes". While I can almost accept manual steering (how else are you going to do it?), but manually operating the brakes makes is pretty hard to see out of the windshield.

Well, at the end of the day, when it comes down to it, they are being manually operated via the foot pedal, one assumes without the power enhancement of the engine motor vacuum pressure system.

Did you do that on purpose, "manually operated via the foot pedal"? That's another head exploder there.

Nope, not quite. Glad I did it by accident, though. I figure foot pedal is fairly redundant, but I missed the "manually" bit.

I'm late to the party. Actually saw a patient.

Also from the Department of Redundancy Department: The patient's past history is negative for the HIV virus. She could possibly have PTSD from being held hostage by an armed gunman who was a member of the GOP party. I just finished typing her note on my LCD display. At twelve noon, I break for lunch. Should I have the pizza pie or the tuna fish?

Hurray bravo!

I hope Obama gets re-elected for another term.

I'm almost done with my research on a universal panacea.

When it hits the market, I'll let you know the UPC code.

Why is it redundant can't it just be dundant?

Wait.







JP saw a patient?

It was accidental. He ran into him in the hall while he was trying to go to the Olive Garden restaurant.

Jack, I need to borrow one of your "smileys".

:p

There's a difference between "saw" and "treated"

I heard JP "sawed" a patient.

No. The patient told him to sod off, though.

And we both thought Superman II was the best of the lot because of General Zod.

Well, Chris, I did pick up some Republic of Tea Earl Greyer at my local World Market out here due to your post. I really like it! I need to make a trip back and see what other flavors they have available.

All this coffee talk reminds me of my first 'real' coffee in Italy. I was in a business meeting and was offered a coffee. Being a little jet lagged I figured I needed the pick me up.

They brought me an espresso. By the end of the meeting I was so buzzed on caffeine I could hardly concentrate.

I like a good strong American coffee, but I leave the rocket fuel to others.

Not a fan of expresso. Not only is it too strong, but it gives you Mega-coffee-breath afterwards.

That's why everyone in Europe smokes. It masks the coffee breath.

And why in the Netherlands, everyone smoke weed. It masks the tobacco smell.

A couple things I have discovered. Very important to have a high end grinder. And I have also noticed quite a difference in my grind when I change coffee type. I usually recalibrate when opening a new bag. I use about 14g of ground coffee and should get about 2oz of esspresso in a 23 second pull. If I get more than 2oz my grind is to coarse and less too fine. My experience is there is more tolerance in the tamp than there is in the grind. The 23 seconds is something I read on coffeegeek.com and it has worked well. Pulling longer seems to make the coffee a little bitter. Coffeegeek is a great source and they wont bore you with a bunch a tea talk......

Most good coffee roasters have an espresso blend whick is a dark roast of aribica beans. I try many different roasts and have some personal favorites (Back Cat is very good, Cafe Artigiano in Calgary/Vancouver) but also find Starbucks Espresso blend to be very acceptable.

Hope that helps a bit.

Thanks. I've playing with pull times a bit. I think I like 25 seconds more than 30. Like you mention, the longer extraction time tends to make the shot bitter. I’m not nearly skilled enough with the tamper to target 23. I’m pretty happy if I can get the same grind within 5 seconds.

I'm hesitant to sign up with another forum. I waste way too much time at this one already.

Tea talk is boring, but these guys just need to derail a thread topic. It's a ritual that has to occur for the real discussion to continue. I think it's ran its course.

I’ve been playing around with the idea of roasting my own beans. Looks as if I can get into that without shelling out a bunch of money. Has anyone tried roasting their own beans?

That's a bit personal. Of course, it's not as bad as asking about teabagging.

And I thought THAT was a bit personal.

Do I really need to say it?

Mike drew a big red target on himself, huh?

Roasting beans is easy and the coffee tastes great. You can just roast a few in a fry pan without especially timing them as my wife has to make enough for a pot, although for more precision for your espresso machine and consistent batches you'd want a coffee roaster. We have a coffee roaster and it worked well but I never got around to putting together a proper ventilation system so we haven't used it in a while, you need to vent the smoke out the window with something like a dryer hose, not hard to do, or you can just roast your coffee in the garage with the door open in the summer.

All of the best coffee shops use fresh roasted beans, it makes quite a difference.

Never tried roasting coffee beans before, but it sounds like a propane/gas barbecue might be usefull there. Keep any smoke outside the house too.

LOL..!! Thanks for the laugh fellas, I needed one doday. Ya, I totally set myself up with this group...

I want to laugh too. Does anyone have a doday I can borrow?

No problem.

As far as getting consistent shots, the best thing to do is just practice.

A good grinder is essential. You can have the best machine, perfectly aged and roasted beans, a precise tamp, and the ghost of Achille Gaggia himself watching over your shoulder, but if the grind is inconsistent, it's all for naught. Get something solid that's a burr grinder. For heaven's sake, no blade grinders. I'm really happy with my Gaggia MDF. I know the Rancillio Rocky is very highly praised as well. I've heard it on a lot of espresso forums - you're better off with a "great" grinder and a mediocre machine than a "great" machine and a mediocre grinder. Don't skimp on the grinder.

Always make sure the machine is hot. Let it heat up all the way (on the "espresso" setting, NOT the "steam" setting) then run at least double-shot's worth of hot water through the brew head before you do any espresso-making.

Assuming you have a good grinder, the best way is to just play. Buy a decent bag of recently roasted (<2 weeks) beans. I actually like my roasts to be a little darker than most "espresso" roasts. French roast is way too dark & oily. I like a "full city +" roast or a "light French roast". The easiest thing to do is to find a local coffee shop and buy a bag of their "house" espresso. It may not be your perfect bean/roast in the end, but it's a good place to start.

http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.php

Set the grinder to super-fine, and tamp it down hard. Then try to pull a shot. Your espresso machine will choke; pumps straining, but nothing (or just a few drops) of a motor-oil like substance coming from the brewhead. Ick. Too much. Shut it down, throw out the sludge, & dump out the grinds from the portafilter. Now back it way off; loosen the grind up several settings and tamp lightly. Brew again, and you'll get "espresso" that flows like drip coffee, with no crema. Ick. Toss & clean. That's too little.

Somewhere between those extremes lies the key.

Now start adjusting the grind. You want the grind to be pretty fine, but not powdery. If you really want to know, go to a good local espresso shop and buy a bag of beans, and tell them you want them to grind it for you - Espresso grind. When you get home, open it up and feel the grind. Rub it between your fingers and get a feel for it. Now try to duplicate that with your grinder.

When you get something that's like a decent espresso grind, just tamp it. I'm not scientific; I just loosly overfill the double-shot portafilter with grinds (as in, it's heaping above the level of the portafilter, but it's a loose pile of grounds), then level it off with an offset cake-icing knife, then I tamp it down. I give it a good solid press & twist. Just enough to make a nice puck. That's what works for my machine - every machine is different in how they respond to the amount of grounds, pressure, grind, etc.

With some practice, you'll get pulls that are thick, rich, and almost entirely crema. Perfect.

As you pull more shots over the months, you'll key in on more nuances. It becomes easy to tell when your beans are getting old (weaker crema). Or when your roast is too light/dark. And you'll learn that shots quality differs depending on how long the machine's been hot. Stuff like that. But just give it time and lots of practice.

And if you want a specific recomendation for beans... Right now, my #1 pick is the "Red Line Espresso" from Metropolis Coffee:

http://www.metropoliscoffee.com/shop/category/coffee/blends/view/redline-espresso-p1/

Absolutely killer beans, IMHO.

Good luck!

All good advice from Peter. Get some practice beans before committing to the good stuff. Get your technique down first.

A hot, primed boiler is best to work with. Never pull shots from a cold start. It'll damage your boiler and you won't have the right temp anyways.

A good grinder is key. You'll need to play w/ grind setting, tamper force, and pull timing to get the shot you want. A lot of that is feel (and taste). I started from the Golden Rule (20 to 25 seconds) for the timing. I find that more than 25 seconds means the pull is too bitter, grind is too fine (leading to a longer time), or the tamp is too hard. I have bought some beans that instructed me to a pull of 28 seconds but that's not common.

If you get some beans from a local roaster (or online) ask their recommendation for the time. That should give you a sense.

Happy drinking.

Another tip. It helps to warm up your demitasse cups before pulling the shot into them. You can use the water from the prime cycle too. By preheating the cups, you ensure that you keep the shot warm, rather than letting that heat warm up the cup. Makes a big diff. I learned when I went to Barefoot. They give you a free shot w/ your bean order. I asked for it to go and you would've thought I shot somebody w/ a gun. You never order that to go. You drink it in a piping hot, real cup, just like the Italians.

Peter - I think I have a pretty good grinder. It's a Barista Vario. I bought it after reading this review. http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/baratza-vario-grinder-second-look-t10195.html


Do you guys buy a pound at a time or buy more adn freeze it?

Whoa, that's fancy. Should be WAY more than fine.

I usually get under a pound, I only do a double shot a day. You never really want to freeze it, it kills the taste and you don't want the defrost moisture getting into the dry beans.

My roaster also recommends grinding a few days after roast, hence why the roast date is on the package. If it sits too long, the taste diminishes. I usually store my beans in a vacuum sealed container and then only grind what I drink, maybe a 1/3 or 1/4 cup of beans.

Eyjafjallajökull glacier.

Shipping to Alaska kills me. I went to order a five pound bag of that Red Line and they wanted $47 to ship it to me.

I have a commercial vacuum sealer (for game and fish). Do you think that would help if I froze a few pounds?

Didn't know you lived in Alaska. Cool. Yeah, you're probably going to want to focus on local roasters up there. If you live near civilization, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find a good roaster, these days. Perhaps try Anchorage. Shipping at least should be less than from down here in the 48. That Red Line is wonderful, but I don't think I'd pay $50-in-shipping costs either. ;-)

Yes indeed, that looks like a great grinder, as far as I know. I'd be happy with that. :-)

Don't freeze coffee. It freezes the oils in the beans. When those oils thaw, the flavor & brew quality doesn't recover to what it should be. I don't think thawed great beans aren't any better than a tin can of Folgers.

A one-pound bag of beans lasts us about two weeks. So at most, I'll buy two pounds at a time because that's about much as we can drink through before the beans really start to degrade. I keep them in an air-tight glass container, in a cool & dry cubbard. Ideally, I like to just buy one pound at a time so that the bean quality is always near peak.

However, depending on where you live in Alaska, buying frequently might not be an option. And in that case, I really don't know what to tell you in terms of how to store beans long-term. I'd think in that case, your only real option would be to roast them yourself. There's bound to be a thread or two or twelve on some coffee geek forum about this topic. I'd try to find that and see what they say.