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#302544 - 04/19/10 11:41 PM Relative Volume Level recommendations
Nashvegas Rocks Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/13/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Nashville TN
Hi all, for those who haven't read my previous posts I was the victim of bad circumstance in which I had a M22 go out on me the 2nd day of playing.


That leads me to this question, at what level am I pushing a speaker or receiver too hard. I use the relative volume levels (DB going down to 0 then up to 18). At first i thought i might have done damage by listening too loud but i was only at -15 on stereo mode. This leaves a lot of room for the receiver (Denon 2310) to go. Would most of you feel comfortable at a -5 or even 0 volume level for an extended time say an hour or so. I fear i will be gun shy thinking i did something bad to the M22's by listening at a moderate to loud volume. Thanks in advance for any feedback.

PS. I called them last Thursday and should have my replacement this coming Thursday which is nice.
_________________________
M22's
VP100
QS4's
SVS PB12-NSD
Denon 2310CI
Panasonic P58S2
Panasonic P50S2

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#302545 - 04/19/10 11:42 PM Re: Relative Volume Level recommendations [Re: Nashvegas Rocks]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17766
Loc: NoVA
No, I don't think you did anything wrong volume level wise. I might be a bit nervous at -5 or 0, but -15 should be just fine. The question would be more of the receiver distorting and damaging the drivers, but it is unlikely that it would cause the speaker to not make any noise at all.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#302550 - 04/20/10 12:06 AM Re: Relative Volume Level recommendations [Re: Nashvegas Rocks]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10383
Brian, the relative volume control settings can be pretty meaningless as to the actual speaker volume(and required amplifier power). For example, what if a ppp musical passage or someone whispering in a movie happened to be the source material at a particular moment. Even if the receiver was turned up to the +18 max, maybe only a watt or two of power would be used, even listening to that material at a level much louder(maybe mid 80s dB sound level)than the producers intended.

The actual sound levels have to be measured with a separate SPL meter, such as the RadioShack unit, and what you should be concerned about is neither the receivers nor the speakers, but your hearing. When I'm listening at a "loud" level, typically this is an average level in the mid 80s of decibels, using about 1 watt. In my most dynamic classical source material, split-second peaks might be as much as 20dB higher, requiring about 100 watts. More commonly, I'd listen at levels about 10dB lower than this. Again, pushing your 2310 or M22s too hard shouldn't be the concern; they can take more than your hearing can without permanent damage.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#302552 - 04/20/10 12:38 AM Re: Relative Volume Level recommendations [Re: JohnK]
Nashvegas Rocks Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/13/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Nashville TN
Johnk, your statement is what my head was telling me but im a paranoid schizophrenic (jk). Its one of those things i need to say to myself "this is what they are made for". Before getting anything else cranked up i will be purchasing a SPL meter as i want one to test my SVS sub as well.

Another side note as i will hijack my own thread, while having a chance to compare my old satelite speaker with the M22 side by side it is laughable and what i thought was good. My older system would hold its own against the not so popular Bose systems and thus i felt they were great. One thing is getting used to the new sound. I am growing to love the Axioms more and more as I get accustomed to accurate sound. The warm but not harsh highs are astonishing at times. For grins i also hooked up my old Sony receiver and can also tell that the Denon seems to not be as bright or its in the Audyssey controls but my denon really seems to outshine my Sony.

I appreciate the feedback from both you JohnK and Kcarlile. This board is full of extremely nice, knowledgeable and more importantly patient people.
_________________________
M22's
VP100
QS4's
SVS PB12-NSD
Denon 2310CI
Panasonic P58S2
Panasonic P50S2

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#302810 - 04/22/10 11:09 AM Re: Relative Volume Level recommendations [Re: Nashvegas Rocks]
snazzed Offline
local

Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 201
Short version, the Denon reciever in your signature can't put out enough to damage your speakers unless you turn it up high enough to clip it. Anything up to, and including 0 volume is fine. Above 0 is fine until you get clipping or heat shutdown. If you hear clipping, look at your volume level and don't go that high again.

---

By my understanding the 0 volume level is what the reciever was designed for. Anything from zero down is absolutely 100% fine. Also, the rated power and distortion numbers for the receiver should be for the 0 Level (I may be wrong on that point but it is my impression).

Going above zero you can start adding distortion to the signal and, depending on the source material, heat load. If you have a good receiver the distortion shouldn't be noticable until you get to +15 or higher. If you can hear the distortion or it starts to clip, don't go that high! Clipping = Bad! Clipping can damage your speakers.

Heat... well, the Receiver should have an auto-shutdown. If it isn't shutting down you're fine.

Regarding power and speakers there should be no issue. The M22 is rated at 200W. If I'm right, correct me if I'm not, that means they can handle a continuous 200W signal. Peaks and transients may be greater. Your Denon 2310 should only put out 105W continuously at the 0 volume level. And again, you should never actually see continuous output like this in practice... unless you enjoy listening to test tones.


snazzed
_________________________
M22, VP150, QS8 <--all v2
Sub: Outlaw LFM1-Plus
Denon AVR1910, Panasonic Plasma 50" S2

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#302815 - 04/22/10 11:25 AM Re: Relative Volume Level recommendations [Re: Nashvegas Rocks]
BobKay Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 3141
Loc: Massachusetts Badlands
 Originally Posted By: Nashvegas Rocks
This board is full of extremely nice, knowledgeable and more importantly patient people.


First impressions can be so hilarious!
_________________________
"Ya rolls the dice and ya takes yer chanskes."
Popeye

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#302833 - 04/22/10 12:33 PM Re: Relative Volume Level recommendations [Re: Nashvegas Rocks]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3187
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi Nashvegas,

You really should regard the "0-dB" level on your AV receiver as a cautionary level beyond which you may risk clipping and or increased distortion. As JohnK has pointed out, it's a very rough approximation, but understand that as amplifiers approach their maximum output distortion increases.

The M22s when mated with a good subwoofer, will reproduce "quite loud" to "very loud" levels of 85 dB SPL to 95 dB, respectively, at your listening position in an average sized living room of 2200 cu. ft. about 8 to 10 feet away. However, don't expect them to cleanly reproduce the crazy-loud levels of the M80s or M60s in bigger rooms, great rooms with cathedral ceilings or similar spaces at greater listening distances. I'm speaking of 100-dB-plus levels, which the M80s or M60s will do in larger spaces fed with robust amplifier power.

As remarkable as they are, the M22s are nevertheless a "bookshelf speaker," with maximum output limitations and compression issues that all bookshelf speakers share.

Generally speaking in all things audio, the "0-dB" level has historically been the point beyond which distortion will significantly increase and may become audible. So avoid it.
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#302851 - 04/22/10 01:30 PM Re: Relative Volume Level recommendations [Re: alan]
snazzed Offline
local

Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 201
Thanks for the correction, Alan. Learn something new everyday.

snazzed
_________________________
M22, VP150, QS8 <--all v2
Sub: Outlaw LFM1-Plus
Denon AVR1910, Panasonic Plasma 50" S2

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#302863 - 04/22/10 02:49 PM Re: Relative Volume Level recommendations [Re: snazzed]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
It's always a good when you are able to learn something new. \:\)
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#302883 - 04/22/10 04:53 PM Re: Relative Volume Level recommendations [Re: jakewash]
Nashvegas Rocks Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/13/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Nashville TN
Great replies Alan and Snazzed. My limited knowledge with the relative DB scale is what lead to my question. I was assuming that below 0 was completely fine as described and going over is when you are getting into the sketchy area especially if you have any peaks. This input helps a lot moving forward, and i did receive my new M22 today so im back to 100%.
_________________________
M22's
VP100
QS4's
SVS PB12-NSD
Denon 2310CI
Panasonic P58S2
Panasonic P50S2

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