Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler Over Research Mode

My wife and I are going to buy kayaks for our birthdays. I am open to:

* Comments on Kayaks (we are going for the recreational type)
* Comments on PFDs (life vests for the uninitiated)
* Ridicule.

Can't help on the first two, but I hope that your birthdays fall very close together, or one of you will be watching, wistfully, from shore (my favorite place to experience all bodies of water).

What you want depends on how you will be using them.

Where will you be using the kayaks?
(Ocean, calm lakes, rivers, streams, ...)

How will you be using them?
(Just paddling around for a hour before sunset, half day trips checking out the wildlife along the shoreline, a day of fishing, multiday trips with 100 lbs of gear, ...)

Do you mind getting wet (sit on top), or do you insist on staying dry (sit inside)?

How important is kayak weight? Light materials cost more and need more care to avoid damage. Heavier materials allow you to beach the kayak just about anywhere, and store it anywhere, without worrying too much about the abuse you give it.

Will other people be using (or borrowing) them?

We got a couple of Wilderness Systems Tarpon 120's several years ago and they work great for the way my wife and I use them. We keep them up at the lake for general use during the summer but use them around the SF Bay area during the winter months.

-Dave

I think we have settled on calm lakes, calm rivers, salt marsh. Most likely day trips - definately checking out wildlife for me. The local outfitter does demo's every other week - we are pretty much sold on sit ins rather than ons. We have asked the outfitter to bring the following to the next demo:
Wilderness System Pungo 120
Native Watercraft Marvel 12
Perception - I think Carolina 12.
and one other that escapes me right now - might have been the Pamlico 120 - although the sales guy said it was the "lumberer" of the group

We actually demoed the Marvel on the 8th - it has an awesome seat.

We spent some time trying out the PFD's in the store but were interested in other's viewpoints.

Weight is a consideration - probably not letting others borrow.

Hi Argon,

I bought a recreational single-place kayak last summer up in Ontario at a wilderness outlet not far from Axiom. It's an Old Town Vapor (made in Maine) and is quite maneuverable. It's the sit-in type and is a manageable weight--about 45 pounds--to carry alone or put on top of the car.

http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/kayaks/recreation/

I taught canoeing in my youth and I found the transfer of paddling technique quite easy. It's much easier to paddle than being in a canoe alone, especially in a wind because it presents a much lower profile than a canoe. I was able to demo several different models in a nearby lake. One other brand was hard to control so I went for the Old Town, which tracks quite well. I use it on Georgian Bay among the islands (East side of Lake Huron) and it's fine in the mildly choppy water you encounter there.

I bought a lightweight Canadian brand lifevest meant for kayaking that gives you good freedom of movement. It seemed fairly pricey--$100--but it was so comfortable I went for it. I can't remember the brand--it's stored on my sailboat.

Alan

I had figured at least $100 - the comfort part is more important to me than the price. THere is a place that will Demo Old Towns but it is 2 1/2 hours away compared to the local shop (which is a much larger volume dealer anyway).

Mustang Survival Lifejacket, Alan? maybe Buoy O Boy. I had both when I had my sportfishing boat.

Yes, I agree. The comfort factor was most important to me for the lifevest.

When I got the kayak, the shop had about two or three other brands. I demo'd a total of three. I'm sure you'll be able to find a good kayak when you have a choice and are able to try out a couple of different models.

One other brand had a wonderfully comfortable seat but it was the one that didn't track straight in the water, which was really frustrating. The Old Town had a decent seat so I went for it because it performed better in the water.

Alan

I'm familiar with both those brands. I have a Mustang survival coat, but the kayak lifevest was a brand I'd never heard of. I found the receipt and it looks like "Naya" or "Nava". It's a handwritten receipt so the printing is blurry.

Alan

Do you ever drop into Langford Canoe down the road from Axiom, when you're up, Alan? my brother and I were checking out some of their carbon canoes, georgeous and super light. I would think they make kayaks too though I was looking at canoes.

There is a company "Astral Buoancy" that makes a "Nova" model. Could that be it? The outfitter had a large array of vests and I did gravitate towards the Astral brand.

Hi Adrian,

Langford Canoe is where I bought my kayak. Very helpful staff. Good selection as well.

Cheers,
Alan

My wife is very happy with her Kokatat PFD. They have a large variety.

And his wife used to teach kayaking.

Murph must be traveling. He's a sea kayaker and will likely weigh in soon.

Not traveling. Just experiencing a huge wave of work so I have been canceling all the less important conference calls that normally allow me to multi-task to this board. Now, if I could just convince people to keep them canceled.

Sorry I'm late to the show Argon but here is a few quick thoughts. It's actually a bit long since I copied a bunch of it from an old email to another friend interested in buying a kayak.

You are already doing the very best thing you can do. Trying a bunch of boats before you buy. While recreational kayaks are a bit more 'generic', the shape and seating styles can suit one person and suck for another. I also think you are smart going for the sit in rather than sit on. The sit on tops are often slower and a bit more work to paddle as they compensate for the higher center of gravity with a wider, flatter bottom. Sometimes a wind can sneak up on you, even on a calm lake. Even if you don't have waves splashing into your cockpit, just being able to keep a bit of spray, rain or even a drippy paddle of your legs can sometimes mean the diiference between finishing your paddle in comfort, verses getting cold and miserable.Also, you will come to love having at least one waterproof hatch for a bit of gear or even just snacks.

I'm more familiar with sea kayaks vs. recreational styles but both Wilderness Systems and Perception make some nice boats. I'm not familiar with the middle company. A quick glance at all three you mentioned show they are about the same size (L&W) and weight so it will be the hull shape and seating that you will find makes the difference in how it performs for you. At 12' none of the boats are going to be fast and will not be as effortless to paddle as a longer style. You will easily outrace those big, fat, open faced barges that you see in hardware and fishing stores and such though. Also, you may find that a skeg is a handy option as it will not track as nicely as a long boat either. However, again, this isn't as much of a concern for what you plan to do with it.

Rec. boats can sometimes be a bit cookie cutter, but there are some new designs that are finally starting to combine the versatility of a sea kayak with the stability and much lower price of a rec. kayak. Again, they key is to try them out. Look for build quality. Will the seat or thigh braces last or do they look like an afterthought? If there is a rudder or a retractable skeg, does the mechanism seem well designed? Most importantly, does it fit your body size and suit what you plan on doing with it. You may find one boat a bit faster but feels a bit tippy at first. Another might turn better than another and yet another might just not feel right at all or even puts your legs to sleep over time.

On the 'tippy' thing. You will find that this isn't much of a concern in a kayak as your center of gravity is so low, you really are very stable. However, it is good to understand that there are two types of stability in a kayak. Primary and Secondary.

If a boat has strong primary stability, it means that it feels very stable when sitting flat on the water. Often because it has a flatter bottom. Secondary stability is when you can lean the boat steeply on it's edges and still feel like it's not going to tip. This is normally the result of a rounder bottom and/or a harder chine (the shape of the hull where the side meets the underwater part)

A lot of primary stability is great for beginners or people who plan to stick to flat waters. The boat will not feel loose under your hips so it inspires confidence. Nice for flat water fishing too as you will feel safer casting your arms around and such. The trade off is that in bigger waves, it will actually be less stable because the flat bottom will want to follow the angle of the wave when it hits you side on. A rounder shape will not try to match the wave shape as much. It is normally not as maneuverable as a more rounded bottom boat because it is hard to 'edge.' In fact, since it is flat bottomed, it will have a much sooner point of no return when leaning it to extremes before it capsizes. Of course, this is not a point of concern for your average flat water paddler unless you want to start learning more advanced edging techniques.

[Note:Edging is when you purposefully lean the kayak onto it's side, most often done so that you can execute much sharper turns.]

A boat with tons of secondary stability will feel jiggly to the hips when on flat water and thus is rather unsettling to beginners. Even though it is technically harder to tip than one with a flat bottom, the nervousness it can create often causes a new paddler to overcompensate, even give in to your natural reactions and reach out with their hands and thus extend the center of gravity too far and tip over. Water just doesn't make for good leaning posts.

However, as long as you keep your center of gravity within reason, you can actually sit the thing on it's side at much steeper angles. In fact, it will resist tipping once you reach a certain point. While it takes a while to get used to the loose hip feeling, once you relax the hips you benefit from being able to edge your boat better for tighter turns and you also gain much more confidence in rough seas.

In short, too much of either is generally a bad thing. You want to find a balance that is right for you. Most recreational kayaks tend to lean towards the primary stability side. This is not a bad thing for what they are intended for. So don't let all this confuse you.

I only get into it because it's good to understand why boats might behave and feel differently when finding the right one for you. Also, if you come to enjoy paddling, a natural progression of skills might get you craving a bit more advanced boat to play around in rougher water or maybe just to carry more gear to that Island picnic your heading out on.

Safety:
Finally, even though you will be on flat water, wear your life jacket. No buts or exceptions here! Also, take a course on how to re-enter your kayak using a paddle float or with another kayaker assisting you. Don't assume you will be able to do this someday if you need to. There is a bit of an art form to it. With the right technique, it's very very easy but even experienced paddlers practice these techniques to stay sharp. If you ever do fall in, it's embarrassing to have to swim or have to get dragged to shore to get back in. If the water is cold, a quick re-entry is crucial. If nothing else, if you are more confident that you can get back in your boat assisted or even unassisted, you will have a lot more fun with it.

Since you are going with a sit-in style, spend the extra 50-100 to get a spray skirt. Just a cool, breathable nylon one is all you need for flat water paddling. As mentioned, it's just nice sometimes to keep warm if the weather shifts. You don't need a fully neoprene one unless you plan to learn to roll the kayak or play in big waves. They will keep 100% of the water out but can be hot on warm days.

Also, since it is sit in, you can learn to roll your boat. This is of course the holy grail of kayaking. It's by no means a necessity for rec. kayaking but again, if you have a confident roll, you will have even more fun because you are confident you can get yourself out of the water fast should you actually need to. Also great for cooling yourself off on a hot day and of course, it just looks cool. However, it does need to be 'learned,' even practiced every year to keep bomb proof. Don't do like I did and try to teach yourself. I assumed too many bad habits and my technique is shameful. Some people are a natural at it but most struggle to learn how to do it easily. Again, it's not certainly not essential if you stick close to shore and warm waters, but if you have the ambition to learn, it adds a whole new level of fun.

Some other gear you should never go to far from shore without. Not necessary (but still good) on small lakes or rivers where you are never far from the shore.
-- A good marine whistle is a MUST. Fox40s are kind of the defacto standard around here. You would be surprised at how little wind or waves it takes before your partner can't hear you at just a bit of a distance.
-- A paddle float is the best way to get back in your boat unassisted if you don't have a good roll.
-- Once your back in the boat, a hand pump is best but some kind of baler is then required. Even one of those big peanut sponges can do wonders in a jam. I always carry one behind my seat just in case my pump gets lost. Plus they clean sand and stuff stuff too...
-- A tow rope in a toss bag is a good investment but again, maybe a bit of overkill if you are always close to a shoreline. I also keep one of these behind my seat. I have used it maybe twice in thirteen years. Once when I came across a very somber gentleman drifting in the ocean who lost his paddle and another time when the wind came up enough that my wife was just getting too tired to make any decent progress home.

My only advice on life jackets is make sure they are comfortable or you won't enjoy yourself as much. A jacket designed for kayaking will have extra large openings for the arms to account for the range of arm motion you will use. Also, you want it short enough so that it's not between you and the combing of the boat. In other words, it should lend itself to a natural seating position.

A pocket or two is a nice addition for for that whistle an energy bar or two. Don't go crazy with pockets though. Weight and a life jacket is kind of a conundrum.


Above all, relax and enjoy!!! I don't know anyone who hasn't tried kayaking once and not loved it. It's so easy for beginners plus it provides so many options for every type of personality to relax and enjoy nature, exercise your cardio and core, play in some mild waves or even get out there and push yourself to your limits in more extreme conditions.

See? I knew that he would be helpful!

Mark, you weren't kidding!

Thanks for the post, Andrew. I think I'm gonna print it up and hang onto it. I was looking at sea kayaks a couple years ago. . .and then I moved to Arizona. I'm not giving up hope though!

Rolling is a riot once you get it down.

I see your dillema but aren't there some pretty big rivers in Arizona if I'm not mistaken. Like the famous Colorado? I have no idea really about how big they get for a sea kayak to be the boat of choice but there has to be some great relaxing river paddling and probably a lot of whitewater kayaking too, depending on your interest.

I've never been that far south in the West but hopefully I'll pass through there one day on my way to paddle around the Baja.

The colorado is a fine river ... but depending on where you get in it .... top current and 3 foot down two different currents .. I'm not talkin Grand canyon thats diff, if your a hiker do Havasupai Canyon!

The current in the Grand Canyon is pretty impressive, well, scary actually.

Wordgasm. I plan to return to the colorado some day to do more hiking. My trip down the Grand Canyon is one of the more memorable ones. Its amazing what water and a little time can produce!

Fixed that for ya.

Yes, there are lakes and rivers out here. I have yet to actually go out and find them. *embarrassed* Freshwater is probably my best bet. I remember vacationing at Lake Powell when I was younger.

As much as I enjoyed being out on the ocean in my buddy's tin can of a boat, I'm admittedly a bit frightened of the sea. Um, you know, the sharks and all. I'm serious, Jaws is one of the most effective sphincter-puckerers of a movie in the long term sense. That's ALL I think about when I swim in the ocean.

If I ever meet you, I'll be sure to show you this one movie about demons who live in speakers and crawl out of the ports when you fall asleep.

Oh sure! Take all the fun out of my life!

So I guess that sealed enclosures do have some advantages, Peter.

We have nice warm swimming water in our summer months but luckily it's not long enough a season to encourage sharks to make regular visits. In fact, most locals would (incorrectly)say we don't have any but in truth, they are out there but stick to the deep sea areas. They are sometimes hooked by tuna or deep sea sports fisherman. However we are lucky, they never come close to shore and we have never had a recorded attack in known history.

Oh, crap. NOW you've done it Murph!

I know. As soon as I hit [Send] I heard the music. Look's like its a bike ride for me tonight.

Murph,
Thanks for the excellent write up on kayaking. I have been busy getting 2 home from college and purchasing the kayaks. We ended up with Pungos. They have a keel and therefore track very straight. We were told by several that it could be an issue on rivers but my wife was not happy with the other kayaks as she was struggling to keep straight - and I had a bit of a problem with it too.

We purchased from Get Outdoors in Greensboro. As we were saying we wanted to purchase the Pungos, a guy that I took to be another salesman came over and started extoling the virtues of the "Marvel". This kayak is made by Native Watercraft. I told the guy that I really did want to like the Marvel as it had the best seat and that the company is located here in NC. I also told him that I wanted to like it because I admired the story of the owner. In short, 2 guys started "Wilderness Systems" 25 years ago. Then a few years back, one of the men stayed with Wilderness Systems as they were bought out by a Corporation which now owns several of the leading kayak brands. The company was moved to SC and that it where it resides today. The second man did not want to move - so he stayed here and started the company "Native Watercraft". So.....back to the present, the guy (named Andy) told me that after a short amount of time on the water, my technique would improve and I would be able to keep the Marvel straight - and it would be better in rivers. I went on to tell him that I had e-mailed asking if I could get a tour of Native Watercraft facility which is located in Greensboro - but did not get a reply. Alas, our minds were already made up and we went with the Pungo - made by Wilderness Systems. It turns out that Andy was in fact the owner and CEO of Native Watercraft. He never did tell me who he was - I wish he had as I would have liked to talk to him.

Now for our purchase - the pungos are very stable and we are just getting our nerve up to lean out and tip the kayak on its side. I am sure we have a lot to learn in that area. Get Outdoors offers a basic safety and technique course when hou buy a boat from them. NOrmal cost is $75 - but free with boat purchase. We have signed up for this Saturday. It includes what to do if you take a spill. We also have the Fox 40's and have the PFD's - mine should arrive tomorrow - I have been borrowing my brother-in-law's. My wife bought an Astral "Bella" which is a side entry (also made here in Asheville, NC.) I had considered a pump and/or sponge - so I appreciate that reco. I am interested in your comments about a paddle float - I had thought that they were for insuring you paddle did not sink - but you are saying they are designed to help get you back in the yak? Also, what are your thoughts on floats for the bow? The stern on these boats has the storage compartment but the bow is open with a fairly small piece of closed cell foam glued in to the tip. Would it make it easier to get back right if you capsize? One more question - you recommended a throw bag. What is the benefit of a throw bag over just purchasing rope? Right now, I really do not know enough to even ask good questions - but we are enjoying ourselves.............Rob

Hey Argon, I'm very exited to hear you got yourself into a boat that you like. For what it's worth, I think you made the right choice. Yes, your skills will get better but if the "Marvel" is annoyingly hard to track now, you might get better at controlling it but the annoyance will always remain. Alternatively, your skills will develop just as much in the Pungo too but it will become "more fun" as opposed to "finally acceptable". Besides, now that you have made your purchase and are happy, I feel better in telling you that old school kayakers call those Marvel style boats, "Wormchuckers."

For your questions.
The term "paddlefloat" almost always refers to a re-entry tool. Almost all paddles you will find will float on their own. A paddles strap that attaches to your boat or lifejacket is a nice gizmo though. Then you can have both hands free for something and not see it float away.

Here is a great instructional video on how to use a paddlefloat.
Paddlefloat self-rescue
Notice it takes him a while to blow it up. You can buy a permanently ready, foam version. It is likely too bulky to store handily in the cockpit so you have to strap it to your deck but if you are in water cold enough to make every second count, it is recommended. I own both and take the foam one in the early and late seasons.

If you have room for a blow up floatation bag (or "sea sock") in the front without making yourself uncomfortable it can, as you say, be a good idea to increase flotation in the event you capsize. While I wouldn't consider it essential because at least your stern has a sealed bulkhead, it does also have the added benefit of reducing the amount of water you have to pump out of a capsized boat afterward. Just be sure to fasten it to the inside with a strap or carabiner. Nothing worse then watching your gear float away.

A throw bag is not much more than a line stuffed into a bag. The obvious advantage is storage. You don't end up with loose rope tangling everywhere and the bag is normally made to clip securely to your boat within reach somewhere under or above deck. Don't ask me how, but when you basically just stuff the rope into this magic bag, it never comes out tangled. The biggest benefit is that while you hold on to the end of the rope coming out the bag's opening, you throw the bag itself and let the rope uncoil out of it while in flight. The added weight of the bag and the rope enables you to throw it much, much further and much more accurately than just a length of rope. Especially in a bit of wind.

Again, Youtube explains better. Although this guy is standing on the shoreline and you won't be worrying about what "style" of throw to use out on a kayak.
Throw Bags


One of many Edits:
Here is a good example of an assisted rescue that you will likely learn on your course Saturday. The comment section make some valid critiques but it is still a good demonstration video.
T-Rescue
My comment would have been that once you learn it, begin to practice it in rough water. Waves add a whole new dynamic to the practice required and besides, how often will you flip in calm water?

Thanks for getting back so quickly. Can't check the Youtubes at work - so I will save that for later. Now I am curious about the "Wormchucker" term? Care to elaborate on that a bit? The float bags that I have found on line are tailored to fit in a "split bow" cockpit - so I don't think they will get in the way.

One other thing about the Pungo - it just so happened that REI was running a Memorial Day sale. All hard shell boats (including kayaks) were 15% off. REI carries the Pungo - but only in yellow. So....my plan was to dicker with the staff at Get Outdoors. I figured I could get them to come down some if not 15%. I looked at the argument from their perspective and figured they would counter with "We have the FREE safety course - a $75 value". Maybe "We offer FREE demos every other week" - which I had already been to 2. When I asked the sales guy if they ever came down on price - given that I was buying 2 - He said "No, we never deal on price". So I said, "Even if I can go 3 miles down the road and get them 15% cheaper?" He asked me where and I told him REI - he said there was no way they could compete with a company the size of REI. I expected that comment and I told him I agreed and understood - but "What can you do?" If he had offered to come off - say $100 on the 2 combined, I was willing to accept that deal. If he refused to deal at all, I was going to buy one from him and one from REI. That way I could get a color other than Yellow (laugh - but I am willing to pay for the color I want) and one of us would still get the free safety course. At any rate he repeated that they could not compete and I just replied again "I know, but what can you do?" He then said he would have to go and talk to the manager. Meanwhile, my wife slips off to another area as dickering always makes her nervous. So I linger near the manager and the salesguy (pretending to browse the accessories) and a couple of other sales guys join the huddle - they weren't very busy. I overheard "REI" and "15%" and "Margin Hit" and "We'll have to tell so and so" and a couple of others. The salesguy finally walks back over and I'm expecting a counter - he just says "We're going to honor the deal". So I smiled and said thank you very much while inside I'm high fiven and fist bumpin. Now, my wife appears and said what's goin on? I did my best ventriloquist deal - not movin my mouth - and said tersely, "They're Matchin REI". Now we're fist bumpin and long story short we saved $250 - both get the free course and everybody's happy.

Some times, you're just livin right.......

Congrats on sticking in there for the deal!

Worm...chucker refers to the fact that these short, fat boats with the big open cockpits make excellent fishing platforms but are way too much effort to enjoy paddling in anything but a small pond.

They all have their uses but a little friendly rivalry is always fun. Kind of like "Double Plankers" vs. "Knuckle Draggers" in the ski / snowboard world.