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#318652 - 08/15/10 02:46 PM Re: I just ordered a pair of M3 v3 Bookshelf Speakers [Re: jerrymb]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11208
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I'm glad you're trying a different pair. At least you'll be able to eliminate any issues with your current set as being the culprit.

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#318654 - 08/15/10 03:04 PM Re: I just ordered a pair of M3 v3 Bookshelf Speakers [Re: CV]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Originally Posted By: Dr.House

This was true for the last 20 years but this trend of compressed audio and formats such as MP3 is slowly dying. The shift has already occured with manufacturers. There is a shift happening in consumer preferences as well to lossless formats. Economies of scale and dropping prices in storage devices (HDD, Micro-SD cards, SD etc) as well as affordable and quality music players, computers, home theatre PC's is definitely encouraging. Lossless audio formats are a basic feature set on portable players costing less than $40. Now that manufacturers are marketing these features instead of MP3, consumers are now becoming educated on the benefits. This will all lead to a shift to lossless as the standard and in tastes. Affordability is key, and it is already present in the market. It will just better.

If this takes hold, production/mixing will most likely shift as well. It did at least hold true during the "loudness/mp3 wars". Believe it or not vinyl is actually starting to come back in a big way as well.


It will be interesting to see if what you suggest happens. I work with a lot of tech savvy people and not one of them knows or understands anything about ďlosslessĒ audio. I think the manufactures need to do a whole lot of educating before mp3 gets unseated in the eyes of the masses. I was a big lossless fan until I started doing extensive tests of 320 mp3 and found that except on my Sennheiser HD600s at all volumes or my M80s turned up loud can I even sometimes hear the difference. If lossless does take hold back from mp3 I think itís going to be more because of peoples egos and having bragging rights than from actual sound quality.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#318655 - 08/15/10 03:15 PM Re: I just ordered a pair of M3 v3 Bookshelf Speakers [Re: grunt]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Originally Posted By: grunt
Originally Posted By: Dr.House

This was true for the last 20 years but this trend of compressed audio and formats such as MP3 is slowly dying. The shift has already occured with manufacturers. There is a shift happening in consumer preferences as well to lossless formats. Economies of scale and dropping prices in storage devices (HDD, Micro-SD cards, SD etc) as well as affordable and quality music players, computers, home theatre PC's is definitely encouraging. Lossless audio formats are a basic feature set on portable players costing less than $40. Now that manufacturers are marketing these features instead of MP3, consumers are now becoming educated on the benefits. This will all lead to a shift to lossless as the standard and in tastes. Affordability is key, and it is already present in the market. It will just better.

If this takes hold, production/mixing will most likely shift as well. It did at least hold true during the "loudness/mp3 wars". Believe it or not vinyl is actually starting to come back in a big way as well.


It will be interesting to see if what you suggest happens. I work with a lot of tech savvy people and not one of them knows or understands anything about ďlosslessĒ audio. I think the manufactures need to do a whole lot of educating before mp3 gets unseated in the eyes of the masses. I was a big lossless fan until I started doing extensive tests of 320 mp3 and found that except on my Sennheiser HD600s at all volumes or my M80s turned up loud can I even sometimes hear the difference. If lossless does take hold back from mp3 I think itís going to be more because of peoples egos and having bragging rights than from actual sound quality.


IMO, the key will ultimately be in education from marketing and storage costs. The biggest key is if storage devices become cheap enough where the higher file size demands of lossless formats become mute. In that case most consumers will rip everything to lossless when given a choice.
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#318656 - 08/15/10 03:29 PM Re: I just ordered a pair of M3 v3 Bookshelf Speakers [Re: BlueJays1]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Iím not sure what they will be ripping since most of them donít buy hard media. They all get their music via the internet virtually. Hell Iíve even fallen in line with that and the only hard media Iíve purchased in the last year are a few SACDs because I wanted multi-channel versions. But those are getting harder to find.

I do agree the key will be marketing and educating the consumer as to why the ďneedĒ lossless. One thing in favour of this is that AFAIK the standard mp3 is 128 which is IMO noticeably inferior to lossless. Just not sure how inferior it sounds on ear buds or most car stereos.

I guess itís a good thing that people are so easily convinced that they need to keep up with the Joneses as I really think that will be the driving factor if itís going to happen.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#318658 - 08/15/10 04:15 PM Re: I just ordered a pair of M3 v3 Bookshelf Speakers [Re: grunt]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
"Keeping up with Joneses" definitely holds true for us so called audiophiles. Upgraditius and cognitive dissonance are two big driving forces for many that treat this as a hobby in relation to their purchases. For Jane Doe and Joe Schmoe (the MP3 market) on the other hand I don't see that. Education, accessibility and affordability (storage) are bigger driving factors IMO for this group of people.
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#318659 - 08/15/10 04:28 PM Re: I just ordered a pair of M3 v3 Bookshelf Speakers [Re: BlueJays1]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11208
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
The coolness factor definitely figures into the portable music market, or the iPod wouldn't have been nearly the runaway success it's been.

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#318660 - 08/15/10 04:41 PM Re: I just ordered a pair of M3 v3 Bookshelf Speakers [Re: CV]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Definitely CV and it that is a excellent point. I would argue that individuals were keeping up with an image based on marketing more than the superiority of the features/device itself. The popularity of compressed music goes hand in hand with Apple's success with iTunes and in the portable market. Either way it relates to Grunts point really well.
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#318661 - 08/15/10 04:51 PM Re: I just ordered a pair of M3 v3 Bookshelf Speakers [Re: BlueJays1]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Originally Posted By: Dr.House
...where the higher file size demands of lossless formats become mute.

When the practical significance of an argument is eliminated, it is said be be made "moot".
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#318664 - 08/15/10 05:17 PM Re: I just ordered a pair of M3 v3 Bookshelf Speakers [Re: ClubNeon]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Opps! My subconscious was telling me to turn down the background music.
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#318665 - 08/15/10 05:36 PM Re: I just ordered a pair of M3 v3 Bookshelf Speakers [Re: BlueJays1]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Keeping up with the Joneses is one of the major motivators in most marketing campaigns (envy is a part of every human psyche not just enthusiasts) the other primary motivator being practicality. IMO you have the markets reversed in that people like us, enthusiasts (this forum in particular), value the practicality of getting ďthe most bang for the buck.Ē none of us are immune to the psychological factors you note but with education we often overcome envy for practicality. Well the ones with weak egos donít. OTOH more people buy Bose than probably all ID brands combined because they see Bose being touted as great and know that everyone else also sees those adds (envy). Come on, how good can Axiom really be if they canít even manage and ad during a football game?

Most people donít want to go to the local Best Buy or order a CD from Amazon when they can push a few buttons on their cell phone and have the album downloaded from the mp3 store in minutes. I understand your argument that with storage capacity (I would add internet and mobile bandwidth as another requirement) not being factors then compression isnít necessary. I just donít see everyday people demanding the change to lossless because of this, especially since most people canít tell a 320 mp3 from lossless anyway. There just isnít any practical advantage for the average person to switch to lossless from mp3 so the only thing I can see motivating them is ďlossless envy.Ē

From the manufacturers standpoint the only advantage to drive losses that I can see is to get people to pay to replace their existing mp3 collections for new lossless ones. If anything at all will drive the conversion itís going to be this. And the only way I see music companies convincing people to upgrade is to simply stop offering mp3 versions and/or convince people that they need to have the latest and greatest format to be cool like that other guy. However, are the music companies going to put everything on lossless w/o some sort of heavy handed DRM?

A while ago there was a discussion of standard DVDs being bundled with BD movies. I argued that except for niche markets and some big titles itís not going to happen extensively. Almost if not everyone else in the discussion said yes itís going to happen as it costs the manufacture virtually nothing to do it. It hasnít happened because there is no market for it since there is no practical reason for most people to own both formats and no envy driving the inclusion of a DVD with a BD copy. Everyone arguing on the side of DVDs being included with most all BD movies were thinking logically. Marketing (i.e. human nature) is emotional not logical, (note that practicality for most people is also driven by emotion). There is simply no logical reason for people to upgrade from mp3 to lossless music which leaves only emotional, like keeping up with the Joneses, reasons for doing it.

Like I said itís going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I do agree with you that lossless will likely replace lossy eventually but I think envy not SQ will be the driving factor.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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