Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Anyone done a 11.1 or 11.2 DSX type setup?

I'm building a new home along with dedicated HT and am considering going to 11.1 with a Denon AVR-4311 receiver. I was wondering if anyone here has done this and if so, would you recommend it?

My current setup is comprised of Axiom M22's, VP150, QS8's(x4) and an SVS PB12plus2. The Axiom's are all v2's.

So if I decide to go to 11.1, I guess I'd just need to add some M2's for the heights and wides, right?

If I do this, I'll likely go used for the M2's to try and keep the costs down.

Any suggestions are welcomed.

Thanks,
Anthony

Anthony,

I am currently at 9.1 with wides and heights and I highly recommend it.

Audyssey DSX is awesome and will be even better with 11.1

I would suggest M2's or M3's for your wides and maybe QS8's for heights. JC here at Axiom uses the QS8's for Heights and has great things to say about that setup. FYI

Dana

Those that have tried wide and height channels say QS8`s for height and direct radiators(M2/M22) for wide channels. Most avr's are not capapable of using the height and wide channels at the same time(I believe the 4311 falls into this category, the 4811 will do 11.1). I think you would need to decide which is best for your room.

Thanks guys! That's the first time I've heard of using anything but direct radiators for the height speakers. I guess I could use the QS8's from my back surrounds as heights and replace the backs with M2's or something?

The 4311 will do 11.1 or .2, but you need external amps for at least 2 channels which I have.

I've just found 1 pair of used M2i's which I could use for heights, wides or back surrounds. Now I just need to find 1 more pair. I could use another pair of M22's(v2) as wides or M2's for any of the above listed positions.

If anyone has any of these, let me know.

Thanks,
Anthony

Anthony,

Jason is correct about the 4311, you cannot use heights and wides at the same time (you can if you use external amps for them). This is a huge shortcoming in my opinion as DSX shines with both Heights and wides in use at the same time. Without using H/W's at the same time, it kinda defeats the whole purpose of DSX. Also, be careful with the newer Denon's, users are reporting alot of bugs with no firmware fix in sight from Denon.

My Onkyo 3008 does do Heights and wides at the same time and this is highly recommended by Audyssey. I have checked the difference with my setup going back and forth between "only heights", "only wides" and "both Heights/wides" and to me, there is a big difference.

Check the official Denon 4311 forum thread over at avs for much more info.

As far as I can tell the Onkyo 3008 and the 5008 (and of course the Integra equivalents) are the only avr's that can do heights and wides at the same time without external amps. Both are great avr's and both have similar features. I went with the Onkyo mainly because it was less money, heights and wides at the same time, MULTI XT32, plus Onkyo has been fantastic with their firmware updates. They have released 3 firmware updates quickly and there is one more on the way to make them even better! Just IMHO...

Dana

Thanks Dana. I've actually read both the Onkyo and Denon threads (exhausting)

I've owned Onkyo and Denon products over the years and like them both. It seems that Denon has recently addressed the biggest issues (blue rain and audio drops).

I plan to use external amps. At this time it appears that the Denon is the only option for 11.1(DSX). I realize the back surrounds may not add much, but I already have the amps, so I would prefer to have them.

I'm hoping we see some new 11.2 receivers or preamps at this years CES show.

No problem Anthony...

Just be careful what batch your 4311 comes from. Right now Denon has specific SN's that must have the HDMI board replaced. I thought I read somewhere on avs that they put a hold on selling any 4311's until a new batch with the fixed HDMI boards are available, late January 2011.

Regardless which way you go, 11.1 will be awesome! Enjoy!

Dana

I really wish the Onkyo's had the option of 11.1. They seem to be much better constructed than the 4311. I really hope we see something interesting at CES this year. I was very close to buying the 3008 a couple of different times but was afraid of buyers remorse. While I'm pretty sure the back surrounds don't add much, I'd rather just have them anyway.

Yea, me too. What's really strange about the Onkyo is there are speaker terminals on the back for 11 speakers. Plus the manual even list an 11 speaker layout. There are some rumors that Onkyo will address this issue in a firmware update, where you can add an external amp and use the surround back pre-out to get you to an 11.1 layout, (similar to the 4311).

But I have to agree with you, you already have the amp, so you have to go with the 11.1 capabilities of the Denon. This way, you won't have buyers remorse down the road...always asking yourself, what if?

They always come out with something better every year (for the most part) so yea, CES will be interesting.

Dana

I haven't dialed-in the new Onk 1007, but I'm using the 1007's preouts to an Integra M504 2 channel amp for the front L/R main (Thiel CS3.6s) and the internal amps for the front wide-side speakers (M22 like Michaura M55s), the Frankenspeaker center channel (modified Merak with twin Axiom 6.5" aluminum drivers and the tweeter and cross-over from a Reference 3a de capo speaker), the side surround QS8s and the back surround Michaura M55s. I cannot get my Sony 999ES DVD to output SACD through the analog multichannel outputs, yet.

So far my only source is Cox Cable Motorola HD box. Sounds great.

I'll be most likely purchasing an Onkyo 1007 or 3008 if I get more sold on XT32.

I'll be running Heights but probably not Wides yet.
I've heard Heights>Wides on reviews at AVS, but Wides>Heights according to Audyssey? My room is narrow, so I'm going Heights.

Why would you want to use something like the QS8 for Heights?

Why not direct-firing speakers?

I’ve been running 9.2 (actually have an 11.2 setup but my Onkyo 3007 doesn’t let me use wide and height at the same time).

The wide vs height debate is room dependent. The farther apart your L/R mains are from your L/R surrounds the more wide speakers will fill in the gap. The higher your ceiling the more height speakers will “resonate” filling the room with ambient sounds.

The reason for QS height speakers is everything coming out of the height channel is ambient (e.g. rain, wind, echoes) exactly what the QS is designed for. I’ve tried both M22 and QS8s as height speakers and the QS8s were noticeably better and allowed for more flexible placement on the side wall rather than the front where the direct radiators would have to have been.

The M2 is a perfect wide speaker for either the M80s or the M22s since the wide speakers share so much sonic information with their corresponding main they should be as close a sonic match as possible. I’ve found that because the wide speakers come into play more often they are the ones I use the majority of the time. I actually hardly ever use the height speakers any more unless I’m doing a demo of a specific scene with lots of ambient sound. Again this is room dependent and my room is much longer than my last one leaving a sonic gap between the mains and surrounds which the wide speakers fill in nicely. In my previous room I doubt they would have made a difference since the room wasn’t as narrow.

Another thing about a long narrow room is that I’ve found the rear or back speakers are actually more important than the height speakers in creating a 360 degree sound stage. So there is really no simple answers as to which is the best choice since it’s going to be very room dependent.

Before I purchased my 3008, I did alot of research of XT32, although this was my first audyssey avr, after reading all the positive things about XT32, I'm sure glad I went with the 3008.

Yes, audyssey does recommend wides before heights. My room is only 13 ft wide. So my mains centered in the room 6 ft apart and the wides are 3ft from each main and about 2 feet in front of the mains, angled in slightly. Wides are a total of 12ft apart up against each side wall. Excellent results even thou I wish my room was wider. Sometimes the wife and I will be watching a movie just on cable TV and during one movie a little kid was running across a room on screen from left to right. The sound from the kids footsteps also panned from left to right. We had to rewind the scene because we thought someone was in the Kitchen! The dogs started barking and went running into the kitchen as well. Totally freaked us out!

As far as why QS8's for heights, I was wondering the same thing. I was going to go with M2's on wall speakers for my Heights, But after what JC said about QS8's for heights, it got me thinking...

Dana

Ahh...my question is answered. Once again Grunt, thanks for your experience and explanation.

Dana

I would think if you were mounting your heights on the SIDE walls, I'd go with QS8 or something similar.

Still not sold on these if you are putting them on the screen wall for heights.....anyone else have QS8 or dipole/bipole on the screen wall for heights?

I'd like to do wides as well, but with a 118" screen on a 13.5ft wide wall, no room!

Rear surrounds I left out as well, but maybe I will have to revisit that...wouldn't be too hard for me to snake some wires into a soffit.

I have a 134” 1.78:1 screen in a 13.5 wide room and wouldn't do w/o my wide speakers. They are place at the “correct” angle per DSX recommendations which placed them about half way between the mains and surrounds on the side wall. Works perfect.


Order both QS8s and M2 trying out both and for about $30 ship back the losers. Best way to know if you are getting what’s right for you.


Side or front wall didn’t matter QS8s worked better. Also in a 13.5 wide room with seating 15 feet from the screen there is no way to place the height speakers at the recommended angle w/o putting them on the side wall. Having them at the recommend angle also sounds better in my room than putting them directly above the mains on the front wall. The sound fills the room more than front wall limited angle placement. YMMV.

Since I already own two pairs of QS8's, it'll be easy enough for me to compare the effects of QS8's VS M2's for heights. While the QS8's very well may be the best choice(as heights) in any situation, it could also be somewhat room dependent. I can't wait to check it out!

Of course I'll have to wait until my home is built though

Do you have a picture of your setup? I'd like to see it!

I've settled on either Emotiva ERD-1 or Axiom QS8s as surrounds...but I was probably doing a smaller version of my LCR for heights...maybe not if you are liking your results and have a similar room!

These are old pictures of when I was using my M22s as wide and the height are almost impossible to see since it’s black on black.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthre...true#Post288745

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthre...true#Post309421

I asked Chris (Audyssey) via PM on AVSforum what he thought about using a Dipole Speaker for Heights....waiting on feedback.

He also has this on the Audyssey website:

What speakers for Audyssey DSX Wides and Heights ?
Berkes Attila Oct-22 2010I have an entry level system / Onkyo TX-SR608 and a 5.1 with JBL S100 as front,S25C as center,S30 as surround,S250P as subwoofer speakers /.
I would like to add wide and high speakers.
In this case what JBL speakers ( possibly from the E or ES range ) do you suggest as wide and what for high ? ... what parameters matter when choosing the right wide and high speakers?

Chris K:
Quote:
Our recommendation is to use Wides and Heights that are from the same family as your front speakers.
This helps with timbre matching.
In your case, the fronts are towers so it's not always practical to add towers for Wides.
I would recommend using a pair of bookshelf speakers as the fronts for Wides and another for Heights.


I'll get some more feedback hopefully soon and be able to post it then.

Unless something has changed he will say to use direct radiating speakers for all positions as is the Audyssey standard. Their EQ algorithms don’t always play nice with mult-polar speakers so if your goal is prioritize Audyssey then don’t use multi-polar speakers anywhere even as surround or rear speakers. If your priority is to get the best sound from your system then listen to the various types of speakers in each position you are concerned about and decide for yourself what sounds best to you in your room based on price vs performance.

Buying speakers to match an EQ system is in the opinion of most people, except the makers of EQ systems, backwards. Buy the best speaker you like for the application and only after proper placement and possibly treatment then apply EQ.

In my experience EQ only works well below about 200Hz but YMMV.

Timbre matching the wide and mains as I mentioned above is critical since they share much of the same sonic information. The M2, M22 and M80 are a perfect timbre match to each other when the M22 and M2 are crossed over at 80Hz or above.

Timbre matching the height speakers may not be as important since they don’t share as much audio information with the mains and are generally placed farther away than the wides both of which reduce the need for perfect timbre matching. Still would be ideal to timbre match but mixing a different brand is doable if not to different sounding. Just as many people run QS8 surrounds with other brands of front speakers. IMO timbre matching surrounds is more important than heights because of the direct pans often handed off between the mains and surrounds.

Dean,

What about the M3's?

Dana

Dana,
I haven’t heard the M3s but from what I’ve read they are not as good a timbre match to the M80, M60, M22, M2 family. Sean should be bringing his M3s over next time he visits so we can to an A/B comparison.

Dean

Thanks Dean,

Going with the M2's will save me a little money too.

Dana

Ya, Chris said user preference and results may change things: They just found better results utilizing direct radiators than dipole/bipole.

Good info though, I'm going to try both. Now just what to buy.

As expected.

Remember, buy the speaker that sounds best to you in the role for which you want it and you will have a better sounding system than trying to match the speaker to what your EQ system prefers to play nice with. The QS and other multi-polar speakers are specifically designed to diffuse out the ambient sounds that DPLIIz and DSX pull out and route to the surrounds, backs and heights. Plus most multi-channel music I have only has ambient sounds from the venue mixed into the surround channels anyway.

So it really all comes down to price vs performance and preference either for direct radiating or multi-polar speakers in certain roles. Only you can decide what best fits your needs.

Onkyo TX NR 1007 tush photo

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Thanks Dr. House for the heads up on these great looking and reasonably priced fabric braided interconnects.

Can I ask where you got those interconnects?thanks

The pretty interconnects are from Best Deal Cable. I don't remember where I got the bananas from but they were cheap - about a dollar a pair. They are excellent quality, screw on type. The HDMI cables are from partsexpress.com.

G'luck

Glad you like those cables. That is a beautifully clean cable setup back there on that wonderful Onkyo receiver.

Happy new year Phil!

Part Sex Press?

Happy New Year boys and girls!!!!

Seems a shame to have those pretty braided cables hidden behind everything.

Good point! That's why I took and posted a picture of the big Onk's nice rear end.

Indeed. Baby got back!

Anyone have photos of their DSX setups? 9.x or 11.x?