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Opinions on future of standalone music hard drives
#33397 02/09/04 02:23 AM
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I'd like to know what people think as to when, or if, standalone digital music hard drives will rival CD transports as a preferred component for playing music. And how will they sound? Portables can now be had for about $300 with line out and 40 GBs of storage -- enough for about 70 complete CDs at uncompressed file sizes. Combine that with the spread of TiVo-like devices, and the incredible low prices on external hard drives -- it just seems logical that there will soon be a step up from the portable digital music player to a component-style player, one that rips CD-sized files (not talking compressed files here), has a nice interface, ample storage at 120 GB or higher, a 7200+ RPM hard drive, and all the necessary DACs and lines out for at least analog stereo, if not SACD and DVD/DVD-A. Do these devices already exist? I suppose a TiVo is like this?

With 120 GB you could get 200 CDs on one machine -- a mega-changer without disks, and most likely at a significantly lower cost -- a cost closer to a portable, external hard drive of the same size, which goes for $100-200 today. With the right software -- which costs very little -- the machine could play DVD, hi rez -- any format.

Can such a machine deliever high-quality audio? And can it do it without heating up like my laptop (on which I'm listening to music through powered bookshelf speakers as I write)? On the face of it, it would seem that money put toward the right DACs and a few other key pieces would be able to create a killer app here. I mean, if they can already make a 40 GB portable, then a 120 - 200 GB standalone seems doable. Will expensive CD, DVD and Universal players soon be obsolete?

Birdman


"These go to eleven."
Re: Opinions on future of standalone music hard drives
#33398 02/09/04 04:05 AM
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I'd love to see this as well. I'm going to suggest that 'the future is (almost) already here'.

Just a few thoughts:
The connection from such a beast to a receiver: The ipod's dock *could* be fitted for optical-out, as far as anyone I've talked to has said. I wonder if the analog DACs on such a device could ever equal that in a CD-player or receiver due to the interference from the hard drive spinning? (just taking a shot, I know there's a substantial amount of 'noise' that's bad for DACs inside a computer case)

Getting from CDs to a hard drive: The preferred audio extracter (CD->WAV) on Windows is EAC (www.exactaudiocopy.de). It reads each audio sector at least twice, and if it gets different results, re-reads up to 81 times and averages.

3. Compression: I'd suggest that quality lost to MP3/AAC/OGG compression is minimal compared to the variation in discs' mastering quality (for more popular music, at least). Depending on your tastes, don't count out compressed files as it opens up many more options in making this work- i.e. portable hard drives like the ipod (that the loss is trivial is controversial, and it hasn't always been the case if so).

Reliability: CDs get scratches. Hard drives die. Pick your poison. A 7200+ RPM hard drive will wear out faster than a 5400 or lower RPM drive, and be louder (I believe the phrase is it'll 'raise the noise floor'? Must get into this terminology). Even with DVD-A or SACD data one wouldn't need a 7200 RPM drive (in fact, such a device might want an even lower RPM drive).

Interface: I like my ipod's interface, but something that could interface with a remote and a television would be nice. The stuff that isn't so portable.

I want to say that, given a few tradeoffs, this device is already pretty close.

Are these tradeoffs ones you're willing to make / what would you like to see on the market that's not out there now?

Re: Opinions on future of standalone music hard drives
#33399 02/09/04 05:41 AM
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I like to keep hard drives in computers. They're noisy, they fail, and they're easier to back up when they're in a computer. Also, you can rip CD's directly onto the comptuer hard drive quite easily. Maybe when quiet memory cards get to hold tons of stuff...

In the meantime, this is a product that I covet:
http://www.turtlebeach.com/site/products/audiotron/producthome.asp
Only works if you have a home network (LAN), but it's quiet, relatively cheap, and looks like a good stereo component on your rack. Also allows for your music files to be distributed among many computers (if you're a geek like me and actually *have* many computers)

Re: Opinions on future of standalone music hard drives
#33400 02/09/04 03:43 PM
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Wow..great product link. Even better they reference why you should buy theirs...which means there are other options to look into. I haven't done much research on these.

-Nick


My M60's make me listen
My M80's make my ears hear
Either way - I'm not deaf anymore
Re: Opinions on future of standalone music hard drives
#33401 02/09/04 04:00 PM
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I definitely think we should see more of these in the future. I've given some thought to such a device, and here are my ideas on it...

Hard drive noise is a non-issue. Seagate and others have hard drives that use fluid bearings which GREATLY reduce noise.

Also, there's one critical point to the way the ipod works that affects the noise and longevity of the hard drive. The ipod doesn't play music off the HD - it plays music from RAM. It spins the HD up for a very short period, fills it's buffer, plays off RAM, and shuts down the HD. This, coupled with the fact that it's a DC device without fans and decent DACs is what makes it sound pretty darn good, IMHO.

I would personally use very large HDs - like 250g, and use the FLAC audio format - which is a lossless but compressed format. You get a bit of the best of both worlds this way. Then, just to reduce complexity, cost, and "audiophile-ness" - I wouldn't include DACs in a device like this at all. Leave that to an outboard DAC or receiver, since almost everyone uses one these days. Just use optical out.

And finally, like a REAL audio component, I want to be able to operate the thing without a remote control. I'm an oddball here, but I HATE remote controls for anything but TV. I usually spend more time looking for one than it takes me to get up and change things.

I think the time for a device like this has come. It makes 200+ CD changers obsolete and helps you preserve your CDs - use them on the device once, then store them away.

Maybe I should start a company....

Re: Opinions on future of standalone music hard drives
#33402 02/09/04 04:02 PM
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Thanks for the link - I have looked at these. The Turtle Beach product is approaching the future, and yet it seems strangely out-of-date before it even gets up a head of steam. When a portable costing $279 can offer line out AND 40 GB of storage, it seems rather odd to consider a $200 component that would essentially just sit between such a device and the stereo, or between your PC/laptop and the stereo ... and one can purchase soundcards for PCs (they are often built into the PCs, they are on both of mine) that come pretty close to accomplishing what this component does. Unless you have an intense home network, the main benefit of the TB component appears to be that it allows you to keep a noisy PC in the next room while letting you control the music selection. That is a step in the right direction, but you still have to store the music on the PC.

When they add 120 GB of nearly noiseless storage to one of these devices, and the ability to play back many more file types, with digital video outs, then you've got a solution. And perhaps this already exists, in TiVo or other digital media players?

Birdman


"These go to eleven."
Re: Opinions on future of standalone music hard drives
#33403 02/09/04 04:05 PM
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Yes, you SHOULD start a company. You've got the features down. I'm ready to early adopt already.

Let me know if you need marketers or, of course, in-home product testers.

Bman


"These go to eleven."
Re: Opinions on future of standalone music hard drives
#33404 02/09/04 05:08 PM
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I feel kind of stupid answering my own post here, but I had not done any research before making the original post. Now I see what's out there, and on second thought, nowave, maybe you need to work for one of these companies. Seems the Japanese, as always, are way ahead of us, and the major manufacturers are right behind. Based on this quick tour, it appears the products are out there and approaching us -- with audiophile quality according to Yamaha -- very fast. Yamaha targeted audiolovers with 2002 and 2003 products, but the new wave is driven by DVD recorders with hard disks offering as an added bonus multi-format playback and CD-quality DAC.

These beasts may very soon make dinosaurs out of the recent $900 single-disk universal players. And the Gateways and Dells of the world are going to drive these prices down quickly.

Bman




"These go to eleven."
Re: Opinions on future of standalone music hard drives
#33405 02/09/04 05:47 PM
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nice links austinbirdman. Looks like things are definitely starting to happen. Also, thanks for the info nowave. I like that the iPod runs from RAM. RAM is cheap - you could get a CD worth of RAM for not much money. Ultra quiet.

I still think a hybrid of the two devices (built-in hard drive and network server) would be fantastic. I personally would prefer to keep my music on the computers, for a few reasons. First, different people in the family have their own "personal" computers with their own music collections. It would be nice to keep the music organized that way. Also, it would be nice to be able to listen to music through the computer speakers *gasp!* if the computer was not located in the listening room. The second (and more important) reason I would like to keep the music on the computers is that all of the manipulation of music (ripping / burning / modifying) I do is done through software on the computer. It would be nice to not have to hook up a USB cable to the audio device. Would also be nice to be able to back up the HD...

I think all that needs to happen is for a HD to be put into the turtle beach product, or a network interface to be put into the HD / DVD products. I'd be all over that.

On a side note, you can also get an external sound card with remote for your computer, but then your computer has to be in your listening room

Re: Opinions on future of standalone music hard drives
#33406 02/09/04 06:03 PM
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I agree..I'm quite happy to use the PC as an interface and have a receiver as the go between. Perhaps I'm being stupid, but being able to put the music in the format I want (as long as it's supported) in one place fits my eye better. One step further...the ideal for me would be an external hard drive so that if I then wanted to take my entire music collection with me I could!

Later,

Nick


My M60's make me listen
My M80's make my ears hear
Either way - I'm not deaf anymore
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