Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Sub advice : my head hurts

I've notice a lot of advice about the axiom ep350 and up, but what about the ep175 and 125? Is it that there is just alot out there that will do the same for less? I'm trying to keep the foot print down for a sub, and would love some advice on budget yet quality friendly sub. At the moment the room is about 10x15 that is open to stairs. It would be used for mainly movies but also music.

Thanks from a new guy on the block

I was originally going to use an EP175 in my living room. 12 x 17 with vaulted ceiling and 2 openings. When I turned up the sound to where I like it, then unplugged all speakers except the sub, it was making some unwanted noises that sounded like I was over-driving the speaker. I upgraded to the EP350 and it can handle it easily. There is a world of difference between the output of the 2.

Since you are mainly using the sub for movies, you'd want to go with the EP350 or up in Axiom's lineup, imo. If you go with a competitor's sub, I'd look at something powered by a 300w or better amp, such as SVS, HSU, Outlaw ect. You should be able to find something quite good in around the $500ish range I would think.

Thanks Cat and Adrian that helps out alot.

Scott

Have you considered a cylinder sub form SVS, it would be a great choice for someone wanting a small footprint.

I haven't. What are the pros and cons of a downward vs forward facing sub?

No pros or cons, they both work equally well.

Lineman, welcome. Judging from the subs that you mention, I take it that you'd like to keep the budget in the $400 area. If so, an excellent performer with a small footprint that comes in under that number is the Hsu STF-2 .

I'm happy with my ep500 but am wanting to try other subs out (ep800 from axiom, and few subs from other manufacturers spark my interest as well).

I've always been interested in hearing some of the offerings from SVS, HSU, or ED.

Take a look at Elemental Design Subs. They generally have good reviews and should offer something in your price range for sure.

Thanks John. I'm trying to keep the budget reasonable. I'm not really looking to out do my buddy who just spent 12000 on his theatre. But I am also realistic and know that sometimes you need to spend a little more to get something of quality.

I've been reading alot of reviews and that's where the headache comes in. For every good review there seems to be a bad one, so I thought I'd check here, as I see alot of the users on here know tons more than I do in this field.

Future Shop has Velodyne VDR12 on sale for $299. You might want to check that one too. There have been some who have reported hearing "pop" though.

lineman. I second hsu subs. I've got the ep500, but if I was to do it all over again I would go with HSU or SVS.

I have also weighing the options between the EP350 and the EP500. Recently I came across an article about the Emotiva Ultra 12 Sub.
http://emotiva.com/ultra_sub12.shtm

Audioholics gave it a rave review.
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/ultra-12

It's on sale for $429 right now.

Listener - Why would you go with HSU or SVS instead of the EP500?

I love my SVS PCi+ 20-39. Love. It's a big cylinder. It's capable of way more bass than my room and my head can handle, yet it seamlessly integrates with my M80's. Absolutely no regrets.

The only drawback to big cylinder subs is that they're a big cylinder. It looks very much like a carpet-covered hot water heater in the corner of your HT room. I like it. My wife likes it. But we do occasionally have guests to the house who see it and say, "why do you have a hot water heater in your den?" ;-)

So, I'll second (third?) the motion to take a look at SVS's offerings.

You can't go wrong with the usual suspects, Hsu, SVS, eD. I see Outlaw has a new sub with an 8" driver which is available as a dual driver system, that should be an interesting one.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/m8.html

When watching movies I want the sub to have a big impact. While the sub can certainly deliver I have to run it a bit hot for it to do so and even then I feel like it is a bit lacking. I have heard some of HSU and SVS offerings and both were able to deliver the what i felt was the same performance for less money. I am happy with the ep500 but if I was to spend that much money again I would add a few hundred bucks and go for the svs pb-13u... I just checked and it looks like svs recently released a better more expensive version so it's more like 600 more than the ep500 now.

I was wondering why Emotiva only identified 22Hz as the low end of the range without identifying +/- db (which is standard). After seeing the measurements in the review I know why. The Emotiva sub is a whopping -20db at 22Hz than it is at 50-60 Hz. IMO you will not be satisfied with this sub. In reality, it is only linear in it's low end output to about what the M80 is.

I would second taking a look at HSU or SVS.

Axiom has done a very good job at keeping their pricing while others have had substantial increases.

I think the problem you are having listener is that Axiom subs have a very linear output and a fairly unique sound quality that is more textured less dry then most others. IMO, the Axiom sound is much more realistic for music but it isn't perfect for movies.

I am also wondering if you have heard those other subs in your room with your system, apples to apples, as the room is the real factor when it comes to feeling that bass, not to mention your on-walls will not reproduce any extra bass in that key 50-70 hz range to help the sub out which is busy pushing those really low notes that overshadow that punchy range.

That's not a sub, that's a midrange!

That's disappointing to find a spec that bad. Unless it's a DSP-controlled sub and the FR falls off a cliff at 28Hz or something, listing it as 22Hz is a joke as far as I'm concerned!

Hah, I wouldn't go that far, but looking at the measurement curve, I would define it as a woofer. It's linear (+/- 3db) down to about 32 Hz, depending on the curve you look at. The funny thing is that they specify the high end as 200Hz, but at 500Hz it's only 2.5db lower than the 200Hz output... Very "wooferish", not "subwooferish".

That's surprising(Emo -20db at 22hz). I'm always browsing the diy speaker sites and there are buckets full of 6"-8" woofers that are spec'ed close to or better than that.

That 22hz frequency response is stated as in room and the graphs you are looking at are groundplane measurements. Two different animals and should be interpreted as such. There should be a +- stated by the manufacturer in that spec though. Those graphs do not take into consideration room gain and interactions which is the whole purpose of those graphs. They are actually pretty good measurements at that price point and typical of a lot of subwoofers (even more expensive ones). We just don't see raw graphs on most subs especially budget ones. Keep perspective that isn't a high end sub.

P.S In room specifications that manufacturers use are ways for manufacturers to fudge specs to make them more pretty then they are.

MarkSJohnson and SRoode,

I've learned a lot today. Thank you very much.

I was being sarcastic...I should have added an emoticon!

Perhaps a sarcasticon.

I nominate "sarcasticon" as the best new word of the year.

I've been very pleased with my Outlaw. Heftier than the EP175 I was considering and in retrospect made a decent choice. You may also want to check out Aperion's Bravus II 8D. Looks like it's been redesigned with three drivers (two being passive); I've sampled this sub and it's very articulate, worth considering and has a small foot print as well,.

I have not listened to the other subs in my own home. So not an apples to apples comparison. It may be that the listening environment was better when I listened to the other two subs. I think that when it comes to movies I might just like an over exagerated low end. The one thing that is nice about the ep is that you never ever hear it when you're not supposed to.

Jakewash

Do you think that the missing 50-70hz range only applies to the on walls or to the M22s as well? The reason I ask is that I am planning on building a second dedicated HT room and am strongly considering the M22s. I've always read on these forums that the M22s with a good sub is a good combo. Do I need to go to towers to properly cover this range?

It does apply to the M22's as well but I suspect not to the same extent as your on walls(haven't heard the on-walls but the graphs and owner reviews suggest it). The fuller mid/upper bass range(50-100hz) is what I was looking for when I upgraded to my M80's. The bookshelf M22s and my PB13-U sound very good together and nearly the equal of the M60/M80's, IMO, but not quite as good as the real thing, Floorstanders still play that range better, IMO, YMMV etc., etc. . As Dean has noted, listening distance and room environment play such a huge role that not everyone will have the same response/issues with any speaker.

That's actually a very good and valid point. Since I am happy with my SVS, I haven't paid any attention subwoofer prices for a good couple of years. But because of this thread, I poked around a bit. I was surprised to find that SVS's prices are now about on par with Axiom's. At the time, I went with SVS because their bang-for-the-buck quotient was better than Axiom's. Now, on 'paper' anyway, SVS has lost that advantage. It'd be a much harder decision today, EP500 vs SVS...

Interesting points on the Emo subs. But do keep in mind that these are ~$400 subs. SVS doesn't make subs at these prices (anymore), and equivalently-priced HSU subs have similarly 'mild' 20-25hz performance. Look at the STF-2 or the maybe the VTF-1. Or look at Axiom's EP-125. It's pretty much done by 30hz too.

I don't disagree that Emo's 12"-cone sub ought to do better, and there are better values out there. But for a <$500 sub, I think this is pretty much what you get.

I'm not sure what the current pricing is, but ~2 years ago the Paradigm DSP series of subs were also a great performer for the money. They were in the ~$700 range back then depending on which model you decided on.

I bought my DSP3400 for $700 two years ago, could have had it for $680 a couple months prior to that, but I pro-ca...per crast-in.....I thought about it for too long and the price went up.

The 3200 was about $150 less, and the 3100 another $100+.

You'd be looking at more than that now unless you find some kind of sale or clearout, I would think.

I can guaranty you the Hsu STF-2 will have very strong performance in the 20-25HZ range. I've owned 2 of the old VTF-2 subs and the had very respectable 20 HZ output.

OK, so you get to voice the character in the next "Transformers" movie.

Anybody notice how the Emo sub spanked the more expensive Axiom EP400 in that review? The EP400 seems like a misplaced product IMO. The 500 is so much better for just a tad more money and really not much of a bigger box than a 400.

Not really, what sub was compared and who did the test?

A quick google search found an Audioholics article. It is interesting since the recent Axiom/Audioholics situation that Gene picked what he did. Anyway, even thought the EP400 has DSP it still is an 8" sub, compared to the Emo 12" sub, not really a fair apples to apples comparison.

Umm the review focused on similar sized subs so who cares how big the woofer is. His focus seemed to be on smallish subs. He still praised the Axiom despite it was at a significant output disadvantage to the Emo sub that sells for 1/3 the price. To me, he was almost too kind to Axiom in that light.

I still want to see how the SVS SB-12NSD compares to the Emo. My guess is the SVS will have more output below 30Hz than the Emo based on the spec comparison and SVS's reputation for giving the most extension per dollar.

Order both and report back to us.

no need since I am already a happy EP600 owner though I do have a desire to upgrade to an SVS PB12-Plus DSP. Now I'd love to see a 3rd party comparison with measurements of those two babies

I'm not sure I would consider that an upgrade, a PB13, maybe.

I agree with Bruno, the PB12 - plus is a bit of a step below the EP600 IMO, at least the non DSP was.

you guys sure? Have you seen the output levels of the PB12Plus DSP on the Audioholics review? I directly compared them to what Ikka did on HT Shack for the EP600 and it looks like the PB12Plus has much more output below 30Hz.

2 different tests and procedures IIRC, can't really compaare the results. The PB12-plus does have an outstanding review though.

Jake, regardless of different test procedures, look at the graphs. The SVS doesn't compress like mad like the EP600 does below 35Hz. I wish there was a way to defeat the DSP of the EP600 so we could really like that pup breath

DSP in subs probably isn't going to be limiting performance, but stretching it beyond what an amp+driver would normally be able to do. So if the DSP is limiting the cone movement below 35 Hz, it's doing so because without it, the cone would be hitting the limits of travel at some playback levels. Those levels would not normally be reachable, with a less powerful amp. So what the DSP is doing is allowing a manufacturer to use raw power to get a sub to safely play lower than it normally could.

ClubNeon, understood. Seems crazy that the EP600 in a much larger box just doesn't have the output capability of the smaller SVS. Still in my room the EP600 does a fine job rattling my space so I suppose its just picking nits....well, OK how will the SVS rattle my room? Inquiring minds want to know

Only one way to find out.

If the test procedures are different the results could very well be different too (I doubt it in this instance but you never know). Even Illka had different results with the exact same tests on his second test of the EP600 than from his first.

Looking closer at the graphs I would say the new PB12-plus with DSP is probably equal to my 3 yr old PB13 Ultra. Price is now about the same as I paid as well. They have really increased their pricing.

Ikka's SPL vs Frequency measurements are virtually identical for both trials. He also showed that the EP600 had lots of distortion at low frequencies, even more so on the second trial. He mentions that the EP600 had some good and bad things about how they implemented the DSP. Again the EP600 has far more compression below 30Hz than the SVS, that much is very clear when comparing the measurements of both products which were both down using groundplane technique.