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Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
CatBrat #336610 02/02/11 12:26 AM
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But the thing is, we're talking about amplifiers, not receivers.

A receiver, by definition, CAN and DOES alter the sound--with different processing, bass and treble knobs, etc.

I hate the reduction ad absurdum argument. Is a $100 receiver competently designed, with THD specs <1%?

Let's say this: run a Denon 3810 in pure direct mode and compare with a Denon 3810 in pure direct with an XPA-2 hooked up. Level match them. THEN tell me there's a day and night difference. (HINT: I really want to know this one).

Alternately, compare an XPA-2 with an A1400-2, again level matched, with no processing happening. Is there an audible difference, as long as neither is driven into clipping? I doubt it.

Last edited by kcarlile; 02/02/11 12:26 AM.

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Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
ClubNeon #336632 02/02/11 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
I am a well designed debater.


I'm a good driver.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
ClubNeon #336633 02/02/11 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
All well designed TV 1080p monitors provide the same picture quality. All solid states amplifiers sound the same.

It's quite simple to look at a waveform going into an amp, and coming out. How much the two signals differ is measurable. In modern, well designed, amps (don't even have to be solid state), operating within their limits the difference in these waveforms in barely detectable with laboratory equipment that is many times more sensitive than human ears. When an amp it pushed beyond its limits, the waveform differs, once it differs enough the effects become not only measurable, but audible. This happens sooner with some amps than others. But the measurements are easy to perform.

With displays, you can look at the values contained in the input signal, and use a meter to see what's coming out of the display. The input and output on modern displays differs quite a bit. So video displays are not a technology that has matured to the point where they can reproduce a signal with undetectable differences from the input.


ClubNeon - a simple waveform - yes. Who'd want to listen to one of those anyway? It is when things get complicated, complexified that they get interesting and beautiful... like music.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
tomtuttle #336635 02/02/11 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
I think Rick's story is more fun than science.

You know, I'm bad at this stuff and I honestly don't really care, but...

Quote:
equipment that is many times more sensitive than human ears


The flawed assumption here - for me - is that science can measure everything that can be experienced. I agree that ears probably can't do everything that equipment can, but why is it necessarily the case that equipment can do everything ears (and a brain) can?

I know, flat earth. I get that a lot. Just making conversation.


Perhaps it's because a brain and 2 ears are far more than a microphone. 1400cc's of the most advanced processor in the universe (that we know of) and a pair of those funny, curlicued, cartilagenous wave form accumulators may discern a bit more than a mere microphone and an oscilloscope.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
2x6spds #336636 02/02/11 02:36 AM
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I'm off to get some fresh ginger and garlic for some Thai cooking ... but before I go, thanks to FredK for his spiritual equipment quip. True to the spirit of the thing and good for a smile.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
2x6spds #336637 02/02/11 02:38 AM
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Sounds good Phil. Planning on a little Thai curry?


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
pmbuko #336638 02/02/11 02:39 AM
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Yeah, Peter; everything matters. For another example, recently I "upgraded" the power cord on my computer. Now it runs so fast that I'm thinking of saving some money by going back to a dial-up connection!


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
JohnK #336640 02/02/11 02:46 AM
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Yezzuh, thai yellow curry, chicken, pineapple, bell peppers, thai peppers, yukon gold potatoes, thai basil and a dash of fresh cilantro.

You're welcome to come on over some time.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
2x6spds #336641 02/02/11 02:47 AM
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Now that would be one blind A/B test. smile


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
2x6spds #336642 02/02/11 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
Perhaps it's because a brain and 2 ears are far more than a microphone. 1400cc's of the most advanced processor in the universe (that we know of) and a pair of those funny, curlicued, cartilagenous wave form accumulators may discern a bit more than a mere microphone and an oscilloscope.

That's a pretty far distortion of Alan's quote, and top of that a total inversion of his meaning. He said that a microphone is not two ears and a brain, after complaints about combing effects of the two tweeters in the VP150. His point was that the human hearing system could not detect something so easily measured.

Just because the brain can perform some tasks quicker than current computers doesn't make it superior in every imaginable way. So much of the apparent speed of our sensory system is because of shortcuts. That's why optical (and aural) illusions are possible, and why the senses are so fallible.


Pioneer PDP-5020FD, Marantz SR6011
Axiom M5HP, VP160HP, QS8
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-Chris
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