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#338101 - 02/11/11 08:26 PM Re: Sound & Vision mag reviews M60's [Re: Ken.C]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5662
Loc: Some random location
I'm not sure that that's the same thing at all, because they were all Axioms. Axioms will sound similar. I think the true test would be someone that's not familiar with any of the speakers in question, performing a blind listening test. That may be more informative than the way it's currently being done, with all possible bias removed.

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#338107 - 02/11/11 08:48 PM Re: Sound & Vision mag reviews M60's [Re: CatBrat]
JBall Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 141
Originally Posted By: CatBrat
I'm not sure that that's the same thing at all, because they were all Axioms. Axioms will sound similar. I think the true test would be someone that's not familiar with any of the speakers in question, performing a blind listening test. That may be more informative than the way it's currently being done, with all possible bias removed.


Yep agreed. You can't have an employee or owner of a speaker who knows exactly how that speaker sounds run a "blind' test. They will be able to determine when they are listening to that speaker and of course they will pick it as the winner. Kinda comical actually.

This kind of logic is how a manufacturer can claim their speaker at wost case will tie the very best speaker in the world as what seems to be what is claimed here.

Imagine if Hyundai made such a claim when their car was compared directly to a Porsche smile


Edited by JBall (02/11/11 08:54 PM)

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#338110 - 02/11/11 08:54 PM Re: Sound & Vision mag reviews M60's [Re: CatBrat]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10694
Loc: Central NH
As someone who took part in the double-blind test between the Axiom M3s and the B&Ws, I can say that the fact that I currently own Axioms was irrelevant.

To me, the amazing part was that they sounded very, very similar.

FWIW, I found out later that I chose the B&Ws.... but just barely.
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#338113 - 02/11/11 09:28 PM Re: Sound & Vision mag reviews M60's [Re: MarkSJohnson]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3826
Loc: Up yonder
I've participated with several blind wine tastings, knowing what the line up was going into it. It was very sobering picking a $25 bottle over a $300 bottle as being "better", when I thought for sure I would be able to pick the high dollar bottle. When you no longer know what your are drinking, the playing field is leveled. I suspect the same can be said for auditioning speakers blind. Haven't tried it, but sure would like to.
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#338114 - 02/11/11 09:41 PM Re: Sound & Vision mag reviews M60's [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 3975
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
I just want to ask a question regarding our capacity to retain audible differences, because it does seem acceptable to me that we become accustomed to the sound of anything that we hear over and over again; and I don't understand why speakers would be any different.

Anyone that has a vehicle, knows the sound of their vehicle when it's idling because we hear it so frequently. I would venture to bet that everyone would be able to pick out the sound of their vehicle when juxtaposed to another, regardless of the environment.

Now, this is probably a silly analogy because speakers would have more subtle differences, but it's just a hypothetical to exemplify my question.

Oh yes, and I just thought of another thing-it's my understanding, via quantum physics, that when we do any task repetitively, like listening to the same brand of speaker, we creat a neuronet in our brain, by the law of associated memory. Physiologically, nerve cells that fire together, wire together; which is a result of doing something repetitively. I honestly don't understand why listening to the same brand of speaker would be any different; it just seems like a logical extension.

Maybe I'm way off, and I'm not making any sense, but it's just a question that hopefully somebody can address. I'm just trying to learn smile.
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#338121 - 02/11/11 10:33 PM Re: Sound & Vision mag reviews M60's [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
JBall Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 141
I have a friend that has Bose 701s. He brought them over to compare to my Axioms. Needless to say the Axioms killed them. Everytime I hear a Bose speakers in general I detect the same type of sound, lots of midbass boom, not real bottom end and a mushed top end. I don't need a blind test to identify the difference between a Bose and an Axiom speaker.

Everytime I drive my Genesis, I know the type of driving experience to expect, hence I know how fast I can take a corner. If I were in a Porsche and got used to it, I would adjust my driving habit. I believe we do get used to things and our brains figure it out very quickly when we reaclimate to a familiar thing whether it be sound, smell, taste, etc.

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#338127 - 02/11/11 11:11 PM Re: Sound & Vision mag reviews M60's [Re: JBall]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10309
At this late date doubts about the necessity of closely controlled blind listening tests for judging audio equipment can't be taken seriously. It's been too well established that human beings can't "Just trust their ears" when their brains keep getting in the way and, for example, imagining that a component which costs ten times as much just has to be better. Correlations between price and sound quality even in items where there actually are audible differences, i.e. speakers, are quite low, although they're not zero.

Dr. Toole has discussed this at length in his book "Sound Reproduction", but a convenient on-line summary of some of the findings is provided by Dr. Olive in "The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests" . Major differences in sound judgments were greatly narrowed and in one case reversed when the blind comparisons began. The significance of changes in speaker positions was also clearly demonstrated.
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#338128 - 02/11/11 11:21 PM Re: Sound & Vision mag reviews M60's [Re: JohnK]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8144
Loc: Tacoma
Quote:
doubts about the necessity of closely controlled blind listening tests for judging audio equipment can't be taken seriously


QFT.

JBall, I don't know why you so steadfastly refuse to "get it". The speakers involved don't matter - you long ago started disputing the perceptual process and accepted testing methodology. If you didn't profess to own M80's, I'd think you were just a straight-up troll.
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#338134 - 02/11/11 11:34 PM Re: Sound & Vision mag reviews M60's [Re: JohnK]
JBall Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 141
Originally Posted By: JohnK
At this late date doubts about the necessity of closely controlled blind listening tests for judging audio equipment can't be taken seriously. It's been too well established that human beings can't "Just trust their ears" when their brains keep getting in the way and, for example, imagining that a component which costs ten times as much just has to be better. Correlations between price and sound quality even in items where there actually are audible differences, i.e. speakers, are quite low, although they're not zero.

Dr. Toole has discussed this at length in his book "Sound Reproduction", but a convenient on-line summary of some of the findings is provided by Dr. Olive in "The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests" . Major differences in sound judgments were greatly narrowed and in one case reversed when the blind comparisons began. The significance of changes in speaker positions was also clearly demonstrated.


I see the merits in a blind test to remove visual bias provided the actual blind test doesn't add its own bias - having the listeners/operators of the test participate knowing the sound character of one of the speakers in the test is a huge bias. I don't think people here are realizing.

I seem to be offending people here to simply discuss this. I will drop the subject and be content like the rest of you that our M80v3s will at worst case tie the very best speakers in the world in a blind test. It's kinda cool to say I have the best speakers money can buy and have the scientific proof of it smile


Edited by JBall (02/11/11 11:37 PM)

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#338150 - 02/12/11 03:44 AM Re: Sound & Vision mag reviews M60's [Re: Jc]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11064
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Originally Posted By: Jc
I simply enjoy my pair Axiom M80v3 - dual VP180 - six Axom QS8v3 (side,rear, heights) and four EP800 powered by two Axiom A1400-8 amps. It is very difficult to walk away from it ! ! !


Heckuva system. I'll get there eventually. A second A1400 would be great, and dual VP180s is where I'm leaning for center channel. When are you going to grace us with new pictures of your system?

I keep wanting to move there and work at Axiom.
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