Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Help a newbie with deciding m60s m80s

Im new to home theatre and have boiled down to axiom being my choice of setup. Either going m60s with vp150 and qs8 or m80s with vp180 and qs8. Help in deciding.

Further help is I was going to buy an integra dtr 20.3 receiver any information if this will run either system?

I will not be getting a sub right now but when i do it will be either svs or a hsu (not sure of size yet)

Setup will be in a four level split on the main floor 26'Lx16'Wx9'H

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance

If you've got the coin, why not go all out? The owners of the VP180 who upgraded from the 150 all seem to agree that it's well worth it. The M80s over M60s also seem to be an improvement, but not quite as large. So at least consider the VP180 no matter what mains you go with.

That Integra should be fine.

The m80s state they are 4ohm while most receivers run 6-8ohm is that a problem? This integra dtr-20.3 is 8ohm?

I am buying this in pieces right now the receiver and towers then the center and surrounds later.


I certainly want the m80s aslong as that integra receiver will handle them and not cause any problems. Can get the receiver at a disount price of $650 brand new in the box.

Seems it's rated for 4 ohm.

AMPLIFIER SECTION
Power Output
All Channels: 90 W/Ch at 8 Ohms,
20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.08%,
2 Channels Driven, FTC;
110 W/Ch at 6 Ohms,
1 kHz, 0.1%, 2 Channels Driven, FTC
Dynamic Power 210 W (3 Ohms, 1 ch)
180 W (4 Ohms, 1 ch)
110 W (8 Ohms, 1 ch)

Thank you. It states also that the m80s max is 400w with the information given of 180w on 4ohm then is this going to be alright? And also with adding the rest of the system down the road all should be well? Sorry but am new and really trying to make all the right choices and learn in the midst.

I wouldn't sweat the 8 ohms vs 4 ohms. This is more of a regulatory issue. I drive my M80s and VP180 to loud volume without any issues with my denon 890 (given my room is smaller 20x11x9).
As Chris suggested, if you have the $$$ and the space for it, I would strongly recommend to upgrade to the VP180, that will give you a bigger improvement than M60s to M80, of course, if money is not an issue, go with the M80s as well (sorry, I had to say it ). As you probably read it many times if you did some research, the M80s are slightly more detailed and forward sounding in the midrange and as a better bass overall. This is what I noticed as well when I compared both at the Axiom factory.
Another suggestion for the center is that if you'll have often people sitting off-axis from the main listening position, you might consider a smaller vertical speaker (M2 or M22) as a center. If it's not the case, the VP180 is really good.

the 400 Watts is a rating; you can use more powerful amps if you want; just be sure you don't clip your amplifiers.

180 Watts would give you a max SPL of about 115-117 dB.

So would a suggestion be to go with two m22 for centers? Or just need the one as my living room setup is scattered. Also will I lose anything from vp180 to m22s? In the end im more concerned about me having a better experience not everyone else

The ideal scenario is to have 3 identical speakers across the front, so M60 or M80 for mains and then another M60 or M80 as a center is best. The VP180 was designed to be a match for the M80 for those with out the vertical clearance to run another M80/M60 as a center, so the VP180 is second best. With the 180 you loose some horizontal dispersion to off axis listening, if this isn't a problem and you don't have the room for 3 vertical speakers across the front then the 180 is the way to go.

To run dual M22's or M2's as a center I would recommend one over and one under the screen to keep the sound anchored to the middle, with a side split center, the dialog will appear to come from the closest side speaker for those not directly in front which is kind of annoying, IMO. Also when running an M22 center you loose some impact the larger speakers tend to offer in the upper bass range. I found gunshots etc. had very good impact with the VP180 vs just the sound of gunfire I get when I run either of my M22's/VP150/VP100 or an M2 I have tried as a center. Running the smaller speakers is still a great way to go and they all work very, very well but I have found the center stage looses that impact when running beside floorstanders, YMMV.

Ok well thank you all for all the information and help. Guess it looks like a straight shot... M80s vp180 and qs8s thanks again everyone.

One more thing these speakers that get discounted because of minor blemishes. Any opinions?

They used to be flawless more often than not, but that was when the Factory Outlet was around. The more recent accounts have varied from items I wouldn't want to buy regardless of discount, to minor scratches that are worth the discount; it seems to be a crap shoot lately.

Dustin, welcome. The speakers have been discussed at enough length already that I'll only comment that, as has been said, it'd be even a bit better if you had the room to use an identical vertical M80 as the center.

As to the amplification, you should understand that the 400 watt maximum stated for the M80 has nothing to do with the power actually required for home listening. The max figure relates to the amount which it theoretically could use(it's actually been tested by Axiom with over 1000 watts)without suffering permanent damage(although the same couldn't be said for your hearing at that sound level). The power actually required would be about 1 watt at a comfortably loud average level of about 85dB at a typical listening distance of about 10 feet. Brief split-second peaks on source material that had a very wide dynamic range(softest to loudest)would use much more, of course, but for safe levels the typical receivers rated anywhere around 100 watts are sufficient to do the job.

You appear to be overly concerned about the impedance rating on a speaker. In order for an amplifier to have an "official" 4ohm continuous power rating(for at least 5 continuous minutes at full power under the FTC regulations)it would have to pass that severe test without overheating and shutting down. Relatively few are designed to do so, but they can nevertheless handle the less severe home listening scenarios without a problem. The fact that an amplifier has a continuous power rating at 8 ohms and possibly also at 6 ohms, but not at 4 ohms, is therefore rarely of any practical significance.

At this point you're considering an Integra model which would do the job as described above, but unless you're able to get an unusual deal on it, an essentially identical Onkyo would be available for less. Rather than the DTR-20.3, a model such as the DTR-40.2 with more advanced features, especially the superior Audyssey MultEQ(rather than 2EQ)should be considered. In most cases an Onkyo 708 or 709 which would meet this requirement would be available at a lower price(than the 40.2).

Thanks JohnK The dtr-20.3 was a price of $650 canadian...
that price is the sweat spot right now for me. The onkyo 709 which is comparable is $750 ball park. Is multieq rather then 2eq worth the switch from a better product in integra to onkyo. (as far as craftsmenship is concerned)

The 20.3 is more nearly comparable to the 608/609, while the 708/709 would be comparable to the 40.2. There's no good reason to believe that Integra models are in reality better in craftmanship than the corresponding Onkyos; they're designed and manufactured by the same people.

Yes, MultEQ is a significant step-up in the accuracy of equalization, especially in the low bass frequencies,so in my view going up to the 700 series in Onkyo(or 40 series in Integra)is very worthwhile.

Thanks JohnK I ment that onkyo are mass produced assembly line while integras are more hand picked parts.. Atleast thats what ive been told. I think i will be going with the 709 anyways. Seeming that the multieq will help out. Thanks again. Cant wait for all my equipment.

I'd want to see a breakdown of what parts are supposedly superior in the Integra line. Having gone from an Integra pre-pro to an Onkyo receiver, it's hard to see what's inferior about the Onkyo. The things I do notice are the more recent features on the Onkyo. Maybe Integras do integrate better for custom installers, but since I don't utilize any of that, it's lost on me.

Right on thats good to know. Must of been maybe the salesmen trying to make a sale. Thanks for the information. I wouldnt want to spend the extra cash on bs.

Just an update to everyone ordered my m80s today and cant wait for them to arrive. I also decided to go with the integra dtr-20.3 even though it doesnt have the multieq just the 2eq. I figure I can run the 2eq as a base then tweak the setting to my ear from there. I forgot wires does a guy need oxygen free or silver wires or can i just get some bulk 12g copper with whatever connections I need and go from there?

Bulk 12g is good; check out Monoprice for inexpensive cable or Axiom for wire that's a little more, but evidently very nice quality and not stiff.

Congrats on the M80s!

Thank you can I use banana plugs to connect into the m80s? Or do they require a different connect like axiom wire product page shows?

You can absolutely use banana plugs. Or spades. Or bare wire.

Banana plugs are fine, the ones on the wire page are just hooked together by a piece of plastic, but are still regular bananas.

On the other hand, there's no reason to use plugs, bare wire into the binding posts works perfectly well, and eliminates one connection (wire to posts, instead of wire to plugs to posts).

On the other hand, I'm a banana plugaholic. It sure is a lot easier to plug/unplug when moving around, cleaning, testing, etc.

I use either the Axiom ones, with 2 tied together, for back of speakers, or individuals where you can plug another into them, for back of receiver, or the little monster ones.

Lady Gaga's fans have their own banana plugs?

Thank you. For connection to a receiver do i use the same banana plugs for easy removal?

Oh lady gaga

The little monsters...

Sorry im lost on the little monsters????

That's what Lady Gaga calls her fans.
Also, a bit off topic, but, I also use Monster banana plugs.

lol gotcha

That receiver can use banana plugs for all 5 channels. Do be aware that bananas do increase the overall install depth of the receiver. So if you're using a closed-back stand of any sort, take that into account.

Also the spacing between posts is not standard. So while Axiom's clipped bananas may work nice with their speakers there's no reason to assume the same will fit the receiver (but you could get lucky).

Indeed so in your opinion clubneon should i not even worry about any banana plug for speakers or receiver and just connect to each unit done?

Indeed so in your opinion clubneon should i not even worry about any banana plug for speakers or receiver and just connect to each unit done?

They are nice if you're going to be unhooking things often. But if you're just going to set everything up once, there's no need.

Just be careful that there are no stray wires shorting across the posts (I've seen it happen with poorly installed bananas too).

In the end it's up to you. I like just sticking the wire behind the lug (Axiom's posts are drilled so it's even easier) and tightening it down. With the little wrench that Axiom includes for tightening the lug you can really cinch thing down (small children might be able to swing from the wire).

If the wrench breaks, you've tightened it a tad too much.

gotcha just like mechanics 1/4 turn before breakage.. Thanks again guys

Being cheap and not seeing any sonic benefit, I previously used bare wire on both ends.

What a colossal pain the the a$$ on the receiver side. It was REALLY difficult to thread bare wire into all those narrowly-spaced connectors on the back of the receiver.

I use the nice, cheap banana plugs from Monoprice now.

I'm where Tom used to be. I'm still cheap and use bare wire. I've realized that 10 gauge is the largest wire that I can fit into my M80s. Barely squeezes in there. I think I got it from Blue Jeans Cable, though would have been happy with Monoprice also, from what I hear.

Dustin, the room EQ technology is too complicated to be able to just "figure" what you can do. There's no provision to "tweak" the Audyssey EQ settings(although the crossover points can be raised manually); it's either on or off.

Regular electrical wire works fine for carrying electricity to a speaker too. Nothing special can do this any better. Get it in 16ga or heavier, depending on the distance of the run. For more details study this excellent explanation of the facts about speaker wire by a veteran audio professional.

JP(or anybody), if there's difficulty in inserting thick bare wire into a receiver or speaker terminal, there's no reason that the end has to be that same thickness. The resistance of the wire depends on its overall thickness taking the entire length into account, not just the thickness at the connecting end. Strands can be trimmed off the end to, for example, make it 16ga instead of 10ga without appreciably changing the resistance. It might be the equivalent of 10.01ga.

Well hopefully my decision doesnt fail me with getting the dtr-20.3 rather then anything else.

If I buy a seperate amp to run my m80s am I able to use my integra dtr-20.3 5.1 receiver to run the center and four surrounds to make a 7.1 setup, also running a sub off either or?

Yes.

No. The only thing that the 20.3 lets you do is use a small amp for the surround backs.

You have to upgrade to the 40.3 if you want to use an amp for any of the other channels.

Wait, Rick says yes? Let me scan a little deeper into the manual.

I figured the OP knew there were preouts or not.

Yeah, the only pre outs are for the surround back (allowing for 7.1), and they don't seem to be able to be reassigned for the main channels. So, no, the external amp can't run the M80s.

I was wrong, sorry. Chris got it right.

Ok so in short ill be stuck with the 5.1 dtr-20.3 running everything n not getting 7.1 unless I swtich receivers.

Ohwell Im sure this will do the trick for now as I was only thinking down the road.

Now that the m80s are ordered trying to get the wife on board for the vp180 and qs8s for a sooner rather then latter purchase. I wont even talk about the work Ill have cut out for me to get the sub in the conversation. lol.

As far as the receiver I havent even cracked the box on it. Should I maybe think about the upgrade to the 40(would depend on cost)

Just found out the 40.3 is rouhly and addiontal $600. Is it worth spending that?

The 20.3 is capable of 7.1 with having preouts for rear surrounds.

Dustin, my general tendency is to suggest spending less, not more than was proposed, but as I said previously, in your case moving up one step is strongly encouraged. As has been pointed out now, another advantage is 7 amplifier channels rather than 5, and full pre-outs. Both now and in the future you'd be better equipped to fully enjoy your Axioms.

Again, my suggestion is to go with the more cost-effective Onkyo 708 or 709 rather than the in my view needlessly costly Integra model with similar capabilities.

Im wondering though will I be better off with the 40.3 having the multieq little more power and the option to hookup an amp. I mean spend the more now and have a receiver that I wont have to change for years to come while growing my system?

I see John. Even with a difference of the extra year warrenty? Ill check into the 709 compared to the 40.3 I would like the best bang for the buck thats for sure.

Im gonna check tomrrow on the price difference between both from my local home/audio.

If trouble develops, it's more likely to develop early. The extra year warranty is unlikely to be called into effect.

Fair enough. John thank you and everyone else. I was looking tunnel vision before getting something for now. Not thinking of the long run.

Looks like over the net the 709 is between 800-1000 canadian. Would be a difference of 200-400 dollars between the 709 and the 40.3

I would assume my local dealer will be around the same price so thats a saving im willing to take. Features are close to indentical.

OKay okay now what do we think.Ive got a price for a denon avr3311 amd I think it seems to be a really great receiver. $1000 for the receiver what do you guys think. Has all the options on the 40.3 and is cheaper. Let me know.

Also what do u guys think about a $55 charge to have warrenty changed from 3 years to 5 years?

Denon's seem to be pretty reliable units. The only complaint I ever hear about them is that their manuals are horribly written. I concur.

My personal thought on extended warranties is that if I had taken the ext. warranty every time it was offered to me on something, I would likely be able to have replaced any single item a couple times over with all that cash. I'd prefer to keep all that money in my pocket for my own uses until the day comes I need it.

Yah, if it were me I'd stick with the 3 yr warranty and leave it at that, I'd expect if anything goes wrong it would happen within 3 yrs. I agree with Andrew about the Denon Manuals...they need a manual to understand the manual.

Dustin, the 3311 certainly is an excellent receiver and is quite comparable overall to the 709. Either would appear to be a better buy than the Integra and your decision could well be based on which one was available to you at the lower price. As indicated previously, forget an extended warranty.

Price didn't come into play both stayed in the revised budget that i informded my better half of.

Checking things out I felt that comparing the two the denon was a better receiver (atleast from paper and forums) then the 709.

I could get both local for the same price or the 709 off the net for $100 cheaper.

LOL here in Japan we get only 1 year. Well maybe that was the reason someone told me that extended warranty was no needed.

So im into spending a little more money very soon. Need to know center channel with sub or two subs. The total hopefully under $1300. But again with a 50/50 mix of music and movies sub or center?

Sub, $1300 all on the sub.

Really serious... If so what brand do you suggest. Running the m80s

Hey jake just checked my m80s are sitting in calgary wanna bring them to me. Purolator said they wont bring them to red deer till late today or early tomorrow.

Looking at subs it seems that Im in the $1500 ball park all said and done for 2 subs. Weather it be hsu, epik, svs, funkywaves, rythmik.

How are axiom subs? Something like the 400 that I could buy now and get another down the road?

like the movie "Fiddler on the Roof", choosing a sub is a delicate balancing act, weighing such factors as weight, size, footprint, f3, distortion, max SPL, etc...

if you listen to movies, with a room like yours, i would get the SVS (PC or PB) 13 Ultra.
for music only the SVS (PC or PB) 12+ would be an excellent choice; it might also be good for movies in your room.
Everyone says that SVS gives honest recommendations on the phone, according to your situation.

I agree with the comments above, you're room is pretty big. Keep in mind that the M80s have enough bass for most musical types. Since you're doing 50% HT, I would focus on getting a sub that can deliver significant output down at least to 20Hz which usually means bigger enclosure and higher price.
If I wanted to go dual subs in this price range, I would consider the new HSU VTF-15H. People that own them are extremely happy with them.

for music use, only organs go lower than 20 Hz.

Out of those choices my vote is for a funky waves build. Best build quality by far (construction, cabinet, drivers) and you would even have the option to get true 20hz performance (not including room gain/in room) in a small footprint if you like. More custom options as well.

Oh my what to do what to do.

I should also state that for my $1500 budget I would need that to be the end price after shipping. That takes me to more lower end of each brand.

Whats your room size?

26'Lx16'Wx9'H

That's a lot of air to move. If $1500 is your budget including shipping, taxes, ... then I would follow Jason's advice and put all of it towards 1 better sub, you can always get a 2nd one at a later time if you feel you're missing something.
Also I just noticed that you're in Canada, so I would just rule out pretty much all US manufacturers unless you can get it shipped to a US address and then pick it up. Epik doesn't ship to Canada and even if you pick one up they will not honor the warranty once it leaves the US, when I was looking at the VTF15, the shipping + duties + Fedex charges + whatever was an extra $300/$400 so this makes it less attractive for us Canadians. If you're in the GTA, www.sonicboomaudio.com is a SVS dealer so you could pick it up locally. If not Axiom and FunkyWaves are your best bet.

Edit: Axiom has the EP350 starting at $656 US on their auction site. I don't know how 2 of them will perform in your room as I've only heard the EP500 and EP600 but even with taxes it will fit your budget.

If I may throw something else into the realm of possibilities, I would consider finding a Paradigm dealer and offering him $1500(or less) for a pair of DSP3400's.

Ty. When it comes to axiom subs. i think i would b looking at the somewhere 400/500/600 all would be out of reach for a pair but atleast there is lay away for the second..

Or could go the Funky wave way with the 15.3 and save for the second one if needed.

The sonicboomaudio website i m having problems veiwing im sure there is a dealer close by though.

Sonic Boom is it's own dealer, they are located in Richmond Hill, actually Buttonville area I believe.

There is also a 15.3 listed as a demo unit under specials that is priced at $1000.

I think that that 15.3 would be great. FYI guys I just received my m80s and i couldnt be happier.

So boiled down to funky waves 15.3 with 1000w amp vs svs pc-ultra cylinder

Wouldn't the pc-ultra be close to $2000 once you add HST and shipping? In that price range the FW 12.x would be the way to go IMO.

I'd unhesitatingly recommend the SVS. If you are anywhere near Edmonton I could show you what a previous generation PC-12+ can do. My room is similar dimensions to yours and it is more sub than I use. The new generation Ultra would be that much better. I doubt you would need a second unless to smooth out the frequency response.

Be in edmonton this weekend. Will see what happens

So in talking with the wifey shes states and I quote if you place the svs in my living room im gonna use it as a kicking post. So the powers that be have spoken. She likes the look of the funky waves. Just messaged them to see what they can do for the sub in my room.

do you know about the HAF?

(Husband Approval Factor)

all i know is that is she doesn't like the look I dont get the sub.

Paint it pink.

Honestly, I don't like the look of cylindrical subs either. I'd certainly use one if it was given to me but I'd probably never order one. They just keep reminding me of those old cigarette smoke, filter gadgets that they used to sell. No offense to those who own them, but the correlation is stuck in my head and it's not likely to go away.

honestly pink... i'd rather shoot myself in the foot. no offense to ppl with pink equipment.

My equipment is pink.

I'll lend ya my manual wheel chair .

What veneer does the wife want?