Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Best Rear Surrounds?

This is my first post to what I consider to be one of the best forums going. I am planning a system based on M60ti/VP150/QS8 with a Denon 3803 and an HSU VTF-3 Mk2. My question is which makes the best rear surrounds for 7.1, M2i or M3ti?

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My question is which makes the best rear surrounds for 7.1, M2i or M3ti?

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Or another pair of QS8s?
I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. It is really a personal preference for the dispersed sound vs. a more direct sound for surrounds.
But, given the choice of the M2 or the M3, the M2s would probably more closely match the QS8s and M60s.

I thought I would go with more radiating speakers on the sides like the QS8's (for movies) with direct speakers at the rear (for SACD/DVD-A use and 7.1)

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I thought I would go with more radiating speakers on the sides like the QS8's (for movies) with direct speakers at the rear (for SACD/DVD-A use and 7.1)

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I second this. I cannot stress how much better it is to have direct radiating speakers to the sides and slightly behind the listening position for multichannel audio.

Mark

Concerning direct radiators at rear for SACD, you generally want side speakers for surround music. This is regardless of whether direct or diffuse speakers -- they work better at the side, roughly 90 degrees, but from 80 to 110 is probably OK. The rear speakers are generally for HT, not music. In theory digital receivers with DD/EX decoding can extract 7.1 from 5.1 sources (inc'l music), but it won't work for SACD or DVD-A since these are analog.

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Concerning direct radiators at rear for SACD, you generally want side speakers for surround music.

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I don't mean to sound contentious, but the above statement is not correct. High res 5.1 surround DVD-A and SACD tracks are mixed using 5 identical speakers at the following positions: Dead ahead (0 degrees), + & - 30 degrees, and + & - 120 degrees, all at ear level. This means that the surrounds are monopolar speakers located 30 degrees to the rear of the listener. This is a fact, not my opinion. Therefore, by definition, the optimal positions for surround speakers when listening to high res 5.1 music tracks are slightly behind (30 degrees) the listening position, at ear level. Here is a link to what the speaker layout is for DVD-A

It is, however, a fact that surrounds for DD tracks should be high and to the sides of the listener. If your receiver has 7 separate pre-ins (as mine does), then you can force the surround information from your DVD-A/SACD player to go to your rear speakers, while the surround info from DD and DTS movies goes to your surrounds.

Mark

Thanks Mark, this was my thinking as the Denon 3803 allows you to pick which combination of speakers to use with each mode, so I can use the side (QS8's) and rear (m2i or m3ti) for movies and just the rears for DVD-A/SACD use. My rears will be approximately the right angle (30 degrees) behind me, but will be high mounted as a compromise for 7.1 use. Can't wait to get this system running, my basement should be ready for installation in about 5-6 weeks.

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...the above statement is not correct...by definition, the optimal positions for surround speakers when listening to high res 5.1 music tracks are slightly behind (30 degrees) the listening position, at ear level...

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It's actually not that clear cut. THX head Tom Holiman says about 90 degrees is best for side imaging. You could argue that's for movies, but the issue is best side imaging, which you want for music.

http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/surround2002/technology/page_00a.shtml

Composer and audio researcher Wendy Carlos calls putting surrounds at 135 degrees "the worst possible surround setup", and says roughly 90-110 degrees is much better. Other researchers including Lexicon's former head designer corroborate this.
http://www.wendycarlos.com/surround/surround.html#digress1

I've tried both ways, and especially for music I agree with the above researchers -- about 90 degrees works best for me.

If anybody wants to put the surrounds behind them for music, feel free to do so. However I strongly suggest you do some listening tests before drilling holes and pulling speaker wire.

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THX head Tom Holiman says about 90 degrees is best for side imaging

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This obviously refers to movie soundtracks, and nobody is arguing that the best place for surrounds for DD and DTS movie soundtracks is high and to the sides, and that's where my QS 4's are.

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Composer and audio researcher Wendy Carlos calls putting surrounds at 135 degrees "the worst possible surround setup",

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That is Carlos' opinion. Also, 135 degrees is not the same as 120 degrees, and Carlos doesn't specifically adress speakers at that position. Carlos also says that 9 speakers and 2 subs is ideal, but that simply isn't practical for most people, so any setup involving only 5 speakers is going to be a compromise. The fact remains that high res music is mixed using surrounds at + & - 120 degrees, so this is how they are meant to be listened to. If Carlos' opinion was widely held within the industry, I'm sure mastering technique would be different.

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I've tried both ways, and especially for music I agree with the above researchers -- about 90 degrees works best for me.

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This is the one argument you can make that I will not dispute. The bottom line is that the reason we are involved in this hobby is for our own enjoyment, and whatever sounds best to your ears is best for you. You have a 5.1 setup, and side surrounds may be the best for your setup, as your surrounds have to do double duty for movies and music. It may not be the best setup for somebody setting up a 7.1 system, as the original poster was.

That being said, we may actually be closer on this issue than we realize. My seating position is near the back wall, so I really can't get my rears as far back as 120 degrees, so my setup is more like 0 degrees (VP 100), + & - 30 degrees (M60's), + & - 75 degrees (Qs4's), and + & - 105 degrees (JBL Pro III's). What I can testify to is that high res music sounds much better when I send the surround channels through my slightly behind me monopoles at ear level than my high and slightly to the front of my listening position dipoles.

Based on my own research and listening experience my recommendation for anyone setting up a 5.1 system would be to have the surrounds at 90 degrees and high, monopole or dipole, according to individual tastes. For a 7.1 system, dipole surrounds at 90 degrees or a bit forward and high, and monopole rears somewhat behind the listening position at ear level or halfway between ear level and the level of the surrounds are ideal as far as I am concerned.

Mark