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#362701 - 01/04/12 07:38 PM Re: External Amps - Crown XLS1000 Class Amps [Re: MarkSJohnson]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 769
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
I've been tempted to buy a "pro" amp a number of times, but have wondered about the noise floor, etc... as well.

If the "specs" of that "pro" amp are equal to an HT amp, then what allows it to be SO much less expensive? Manufacturing volume? Competitive market? Lower markup?

This is the Crown that I keep going back to: 775WPC, Stereo, @ 4 Ohms and 440WPC, Stereo, @ 8 Ohms. I mean, if you're going to see if increased power makes a difference, why only go a bit above my Denon Receiver? I also like that it has RCA inputs and can take banana plugs on the outputs for convenience. $600 with a full, 3-year warranty. How can you go wrong?

As much as I like the idea of the Outlaw monoblocks, for the same cost, they only offer me 200 WPC at my 8 Ohms... not a huge difference from what my Denon is giving me now.



It really makes you wonder how they can do it? Just looking at the amp you provided the link to, you can't even buy an HT amp at any price that comes anywhere near that type of power yet alone for $500 bucks and its Class D configuration which is generally much more expensive and only 10 pounds!

I would love to have an experienced electronic engineering type who has expertise in this area offer an explanation for the BIG difference in price.

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#362704 - 01/04/12 07:56 PM Re: External Amps - Crown XLS1000 Class Amps [Re: casey01]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8305
Loc: Tacoma
I think that audiopiles will tell you that Class D amplification isn't as creamy as Class AB. Or something.
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#362705 - 01/04/12 07:58 PM Re: External Amps - Crown XLS1000 Class Amps [Re: casey01]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7237
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: casey01

I would love to have an experienced electronic engineering type who has expertise in this area offer an explanation for the BIG difference in price.

The engineer would be as puzzled as you. You should probably talk to the marketing guy.
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#362707 - 01/04/12 08:04 PM Re: External Amps - Crown XLS1000 Class Amps [Re: BobKay]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7237
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: BobKay

I know those amps are commonly used by large venues to power stage monitors and the like, but they don't have to be that clean to do that well enough. Hmmmm?

No, but these days, it seems they are.

The amp I have most recently seen bench tested was the new Peavey IPR 1600 and it plays clean. Fan noise when not playing program material was the only issue. Well, there were the screaming blue LEDs on the front panel, but electrical tape would take care of those nicely.
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#362711 - 01/04/12 08:24 PM Re: External Amps - Crown XLS1000 Class Amps [Re: fredk]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4082
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
The Peavey is a solid amp.





To the OP here is a master list of pro amps that have been put on the bench.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=855865
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#362868 - 01/06/12 12:55 AM Re: External Amps - Crown XLS1000 Class Amps [Re: BlueJays1]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
1% distortion is pushing the limit of being audible and many of the 'pro' amps are spec'd out with higher distortion levels than this 1%. I have seen a few as high as 3% and a few more higher than that so you have to be careful and watch those little details.
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#362878 - 01/06/12 06:15 AM Re: External Amps - Crown XLS1000 Class Amps [Re: jakewash]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1274
Loc: Quebec, Canada
most of the time, if one decreases the signal level by 1 dB or less, the distortion then decreases in dramatic fashion.
amps can produce 10% distortion easily by overdriving them.
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#362879 - 01/06/12 07:15 AM Re: External Amps - Crown XLS1000 Class Amps [Re: MarkSJohnson]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1274
Loc: Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
I've been tempted to buy a "pro" amp a number of times, but have wondered about the noise floor, etc... as well.

If the "specs" of that "pro" amp are equal to an HT amp, then what allows it to be SO much less expensive? Manufacturing volume? Competitive market? Lower markup?

This is the Crown that I keep going back to: 775WPC, Stereo, @ 4 Ohms and 440WPC, Stereo, @ 8 Ohms. I mean, if you're going to see if increased power makes a difference, why only go a bit above my Denon Receiver? I also like that it has RCA inputs and can take banana plugs on the outputs for convenience. $600 with a full, 3-year warranty. How can you go wrong?

As much as I like the idea of the Outlaw monoblocks, for the same cost, they only offer me 200 WPC at my 8 Ohms... not a huge difference from what my Denon is giving me now.


when i was shopping for a proamp, this Crown XLS2500 amp was in my (very) short list. I opted to buy the QSC GX5 instead, mostly because of the price difference.
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#362881 - 01/06/12 07:36 AM Re: External Amps - Crown XLS1000 Class Amps [Re: fredk]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1274
Loc: Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: fredk
Originally Posted By: casey01

I would love to have an experienced electronic engineering type who has expertise in this area offer an explanation for the BIG difference in price.

The engineer would be as puzzled as you. You should probably talk to the marketing guy.


i totally agree with you, big and heavy and stylish costs huge amounts of money to produce, and audiophiles are ready to spend much more on distortion numbers that are 0.0001% less than the competition, or on class A amps that heat your house, or just on style.
check on the Musical Fidelity AMS100 amp, a huge 110 Watt/8 Ohm beast that's 1 meter deep and weighs around 100 kg. and, sitting idle, comsumes 1000 Watts; for the weight and size and price, it should put all other amps to shame sound wise.
on those kind of products, the marketing guys get a high fever.

what happens is, i think, that those pieces of equipment sell in so limited quantities that the prices must be very high to compensate.

it so happens that engineers know how to make excellent amps since the 70's, when Otala found the solution to TIM, and nobody can tell if one is better than the other in double blind tests.


Edited by J. B. (01/06/12 08:12 AM)
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#362883 - 01/06/12 08:09 AM Re: External Amps - Crown XLS1000 Class Amps [Re: J. B.]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10966
Loc: Central NH
I looked at the QSC as well, but the fact that they spec the power @ 1kHz (only) bothers me:

QSC power rating:

8 ohms / both channels driven / 1 kHz: 500 W

4 ohms / both channels driven / 1 kHz; 700 W

2 ohms / both channels driven / 1 kHz: 350 W


The Crown is rated for 440 WPC, both channels, 20Hz-20kHz, while the QSC is rated @ 500 watts at 1kHz. For all practical purposes, I'm sure they put out the same power.

But I'm bothered by the non-standard way QSC specs it out. It reminds me of the old days of hugely inflated power ratings in car audio because they weren't given in standard terms.

It doesn't mean the QSC is bad, I just don't like their deceitful (IMHO) marketing of the power.


Edited by MarkSJohnson (01/06/12 08:14 AM)
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