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#368782 - 03/05/12 02:38 PM LFE+Main, no. All speakers to Small with SW, yes?
Bayne Offline
local

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I've been playing with the settings on my Denon AVR-3808CI for about a week and stumbled on this blog on the Audyssey site:

Audyssey Blog: Large vs Small

It tells me to only use the LFE setting, never the LFE+Main, and that if I have a subwoofer, to set all speakers to small. This is interesting because when I run the Audyssey MultiEQ on my Denon, it sets my M60's and VP160 to large, and everything else to small. I used to use the LFE+Main setting, but no more as I understand what the article states--which has been backed up by a few other things I've read--but just for kicks I tried setting everything to small with a crossover of 80Hz. The result seems to be most impressive. I think my speakers sound better than ever before. Yes my room has changed. Yes I've recently added a VP160. But things really do seem better. I'm no 100% sold until I get a second opinion in my listening environment, but I was wondering if anyone else was aware of this theory and has any comments?
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"Not throwing my hands up or my dress above my ears don't mean I ain't awestruck." Al Swearengen

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#368787 - 03/05/12 02:55 PM Re: LFE+Main, no. All speakers to Small with SW, yes? [Re: Bayne]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 768
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Bayne
I've been playing with the settings on my Denon AVR-3808CI for about a week and stumbled on this blog on the Audyssey site:

Audyssey Blog: Large vs Small

It tells me to only use the LFE setting, never the LFE+Main, and that if I have a subwoofer, to set all speakers to small. This is interesting because when I run the Audyssey MultiEQ on my Denon, it sets my M60's and VP160 to large, and everything else to small. I used to use the LFE+Main setting, but no more as I understand what the article states--which has been backed up by a few other things I've read--but just for kicks I tried setting everything to small with a crossover of 80Hz. The result seems to be most impressive. I think my speakers sound better than ever before. Yes my room has changed. Yes I've recently added a VP160. But things really do seem better. I'm no 100% sold until I get a second opinion in my listening environment, but I was wondering if anyone else was aware of this theory and has any comments?


Regardless of what the so-called "pundits" might say or what ever you may read about various opinions on these topics, when it comes to sound let your ears be the final arbiter of what sounds good and what doesn't. There are no absolutes in A/V and these differences are essentially quite subtle and dependent on the electronics and of course your room environment. In my case, although the difference is negligible, I have chosen to go the opposite and utilize the Large plus Mains route. To my ears and with M80s in a L/R configuration it seems to sound slightly better than applying a 80HZ crossover especially when listening to music but that's just me.

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#368790 - 03/05/12 03:09 PM Re: LFE+Main, no. All speakers to Small with SW, yes? [Re: Bayne]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1271
Loc: Quebec, Canada
sorry, Casey, but there ARE absolutes in AV; these are called Standards, and the first thing (after some room treatment) that should be done is calibration to a standard, whether for Audio or Video. This is Reference.
But, not all people do that.

when calibration has been done (here with Audyssey), then is the time to listen carefully for some days or a couple of weeks to try and see if there is anything that could be changed to make it better. this is Preference, which is not the same as Reference.

i have found, with my system, that the LFE was too weak, so i increased its level by 2.5-3 dB.
this makes it sound like "equal loudness" to my ears.

Reference means that you will see movies on your TV the way the director wants it to be seen, and you will hear music the way it's meant to be heard by the sound engineer.

Edit: pls read this carefully: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895 It answers everything you ever wanted to know about...




Edited by J. B. (03/05/12 03:13 PM)
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#368792 - 03/05/12 03:15 PM Re: LFE+Main, no. All speakers to Small with SW, yes? [Re: Bayne]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
Bayne, Audyssey does not set the speakers to small, it measures the speakers -3dB point in "your" room and reports those findings back to the Denon. Denon uses 40hz as the guideline, so since your 60's and 160 met this guideline, Denon set those speakers to large. I have found the same results in my room with my 80's and 180, and even my previous 150, reported as "large". However, since I have subwoofer(s) in my room, I set them to small and adjust the crossover accordingly. I have tried 60hz, but find 80hz gives me better results.
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#368794 - 03/05/12 03:23 PM Re: LFE+Main, no. All speakers to Small with SW, yes? [Re: Bayne]
Kruncher Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 484
Loc: Maple Ridge, BC
I've often read the advice that says that when you're using a subwoofer, you should always use the Small speaker setting. I'm sure that I've seen Alan mention the same here, though of course I can't find those posts at the moment. This runs somewhat contrary to his own article.

That said, I must agree that you should let your ears be the best judge. In this case, you've found the correct setting already.

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#368798 - 03/05/12 03:53 PM Re: LFE+Main, no. All speakers to Small with SW, yes? [Re: J. B.]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 768
Loc: Toronto
The standard mentioned(80HZ crossover)was a standard developed by THX many years ago, prior to the availability and flexibility that exists in A/V equipment today in which the user has many more choices and the ability to enhance what they hear.

Relative to this discussion, for years now and with the training, software and the appropriate meters, I have done calibrations on display monitors which is invariably all designed to bring a monitor to the video "standard" pre-determined by the influential Image Science Foundation and a picture that is as close as possible to the original. There is, however, a hitch to all of this. I have done calibrations for many customers including a significant number of long-term audio/videophiles, whom, after viewing the calibrated picture, did not like the "look" and, in the end, chose to revert back to one of the default settings on the monitor which was much more pleasing to them.

Their choice may not have been the "standard" but it is reality.

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#368811 - 03/05/12 07:46 PM Re: LFE+Main, no. All speakers to Small with SW, yes? [Re: Bayne]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5876
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
My Pioneer always sets my Mains (M22) and Center (VP160) to large. I notice distortion at higher volume levels this way, so I always set them back to small.

I've also been volleying back and forth between a 50hz and an 80hz cross-over. Seems for some applications 50hz is better, for others, 80hz is better. The VP160 seems a little wasted unless I set the cross-over to 50hz. Although, there seems to be a more even balance and less distortion at the 80hz setting. (I can't win).

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#368819 - 03/05/12 10:14 PM Re: LFE+Main, no. All speakers to Small with SW, yes? [Re: Bayne]
JohnK Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Bayne, as Randy has already pointed out, the reason that the speakers were set "large" following the Audyssey measurements was that they met the standard(typically 40Hz)for adequate bass response which the particular receiver uses for a "large" setting. This adequate result isn't necessarily the best overall result however, and with a good sub it should be allowed to handle the frequencies which it does best. This means that the speakers should be set "small" to relieve them of the lowest bass burden(which also means no "+" type setting can be made, of course)and a crossover frequency as high as possible as long as sub localization doesn't become a problem(typically 80Hz)should be set.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#368825 - 03/05/12 11:07 PM Re: LFE+Main, no. All speakers to Small with SW, yes? [Re: J. B.]
Bayne Offline
local

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: J. B.

Edit: pls read this carefully: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895 It answers everything you ever wanted to know about...



Thanks for the link. I've read it a few times and have a few questions about those darn crossovers.

For my EP500v2, should I set the crossover to bypass and the trim to flat? I'm having a hard time understanding the sub's instructions and now the v3 has a different rear panel layout.

In the AVR's crossover settings menu, if I set everything to 80Hz, does that include the subwoofer?
_________________________
"Not throwing my hands up or my dress above my ears don't mean I ain't awestruck." Al Swearengen

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#368827 - 03/05/12 11:38 PM Re: LFE+Main, no. All speakers to Small with SW, yes? [Re: Bayne]
JohnK Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Bayne, if your EP500 has a Bypass setting and a Trim adjustment(as mine does)the Bypass setting should be used since the receiver sets the crossovers for "small" speakers.

As to the Trim adjustment, a "Flat" setting might not give the best overall results. It largely depends on the size of the listening room. Contrary to some popular opinion, the smaller the listening room the greater the emphasis room gain gives to very low frequencies(e.g., very boomy bass in the interior of a car). Unless your room is quite large, a better overall balance might result if the Trim setting(which boosts bass frequencies above about 40Hz to balance the room-boosted low bass)is set to other than Flat. Experiment.

A crossover by definition rolls off a low frequency driver above the selected setting and rolls off a higher frequency driver below that setting. So yes, the receiver settings affect both the sub and the speakers set "small".
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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