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#373025 - 04/12/12 08:33 AM A Question of Crossovers
Cork Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 76
Loc: Pennsylvania, US
A few off the wall questions. I’m using M22s/VP100 for fronts and some *really* old mini-Advents for the surrounds in a small 13'x14' room. The sub is a very low-end leftover I bought as a package with some satellites.

On a lark I moved my crossover from 80hz down to 60Hz and liked the result. So the basic question is, is going down to a 60 Hz crossover not good for the M22s/VP100? Also, I tend to use this system for music and play it reasonably loud, say 80db. I have a Yamaha which doesn’t allow individual crossovers. So a secondary question is will that hurt my mini-As? I’ve been tempted to get some M2s as a replacement for the surrounds. When I listen to music I’m generally listening in all channel stereo, so the level is the same on the surrounds as the fronts. Will a 60 Hz crossover be bad for the M2s?

And while I’m at it ... can I not read a graph or is the spec Axiom lists for the M22 incorrect? The spec says Freq Resp +/-3dB (Hz): 60 - 20kHz (base SPL 93). But in looking at the graph they’re down to about 86-87 db at 60Hz. It appears that the correct spec would be +/-3dB (Hz): 75 - 20kHz. What gives?

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#373026 - 04/12/12 08:42 AM Re: A Question of Crossovers [Re: Cork]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
First off the +/- 3DB means the speaker is within spec as it allows for a 6DB swing.

I'd say 60HZ would be a tad low for all but the M22s. If this were my system I would try a 100HZ crossover. With you liking what you hear when using a lower crossover could mean that the sub you're using is even less capable to reproduce lows than the M22s.

An upgraded sub might do your system wonders.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#373027 - 04/12/12 08:44 AM Re: A Question of Crossovers [Re: Cork]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10832
Loc: Central NH
Cork, just one small thing to add: The FR of a speaker often extends lower in a room (because of natural reinforcement from walls and floor) than an anechoic response on a graph.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#373028 - 04/12/12 09:06 AM Re: A Question of Crossovers [Re: Cork]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
yep, that is why I always look at the "in room" spec.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#373031 - 04/12/12 09:10 AM Re: A Question of Crossovers [Re: Cork]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi Cork,

As Mark has pointed out, the anechoic curves are somewhat misleading in terms of useful audible bass output in a room, which always extends lower because of boundary reinforcement (walls and floor of the room).

The M22s have useful output to 40 Hz--that's the bottom string on an electric or acoustic bass. (If you want to test that, turn off your sub and play some rock/pop or jazz recordings and listen to the bass.) You'll definitely hear the 40-Hz low string, but it won't be nearly as loud as you'd get from, say, an M60 or M80 floostanding tower run full-range. Or from a good subwoofer married to the M22. With a good sub and the M22s, the best default crossover frequency is usually 80 Hz, but feel free to experiment.

Regards,
Alan
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#373117 - 04/12/12 01:22 PM Re: A Question of Crossovers [Re: Cork]
Cork Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 76
Loc: Pennsylvania, US
Thanks for the replies everyone.

My take-aways are:

- Get a real sub (I bought my son a Hsu; he goes to college in a few months. It'll never fit in his dorm. Heh.
- I'm not hurting any of the Axioms with the 60 Hz crossover. but may be losing audio quality.
- I *can't* read a graph. (So that switch from Nuclear Engineering to Computer Science all those years ago was best for all concerned.)

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#373135 - 04/12/12 02:21 PM Re: A Question of Crossovers [Re: Cork]
exlabdriver Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 983
Alan:

I play (poorly!) a 5-String Electric Bass that are very common now. Normal tuning is B E A D G.

The open string 'B0' note of the fattest string on this instrument is 30.85 HZ.

That note is not often played; however, the 5-String Bass can reach way down there...

TAM

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#373138 - 04/12/12 02:26 PM Re: A Question of Crossovers [Re: Cork]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17741
Loc: NoVA
Cool, I was totally going to ask that question.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#373182 - 04/12/12 10:58 PM Re: A Question of Crossovers [Re: Cork]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10362
Cork, I'm in agreement with Rick's comment that your experience appears to indicate that your sub isn't as good as it could be. There's no question that the M22s have strong bass output to below 60Hz(the anechoic chamber result isn't accurate below about 90Hz because the wedges aren't big enough), but a good sub should be even better around 60-80Hz. The Audyssey calibration measurements on my M22s resulted in a 60Hz setting, indicating that the response was strong enough there to justify that crossover setting. Nevertheless, I wanted my EP500 to handle more of the bass load and take it off the M22s, so I manually reset it at 80Hz. Generally, I'd suggest setting the crossover as high as possible with a good sub, regardless of the bass extension capability of the mains, as long as it's not high enough to make the sub easily localizable.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#373193 - 04/13/12 05:07 AM Re: A Question of Crossovers [Re: Cork]
Cork Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 76
Loc: Pennsylvania, US
Thanks John (and Rick and Alan). I knew the sub was low end, but had convinced myself that it was good enough for my mostly music application. Also, in this room's configuration, the only easy place the sub can go is right next to my listening chair, so I wanted to de-emphasize the sub output anyway; but now I think I understimated the loss of low-end, even for music. I could also put the sub under my desk. Not ideal, but I'm short, so I can probably get away with it. Anyway, I've definitely added a sub upgrade to the planned purchase list, and I'll play with the location. Thanks again.

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