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#374432 - 04/26/12 07:13 PM Any DTS experts out there?
Lampshade Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1140
Loc: Holbrook, MA
My Blu Ray player does not have Master Audio. It has DTS-HD. I used to think that I was getting almost the level of DTS-HD Master Audio. But then DTS-HD got cancelled by DTS, leaving only DTS-HD Master Audio. I am not sure if I am getting the the same audio as a DVD would have, or am I still getting somewhere in-between DVD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

I am not going to run out and buy a new player(eventually this player will get moved to my bedroom), but I am curious.

There is lots of info about the DTS core but most of it is a few years old now and I have not been able to sort it out.


Edited by Lampshade (04/26/12 07:14 PM)
_________________________
M3 and Manley Stingray
M80 and Pioneer SC 55

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#374436 - 04/26/12 08:13 PM Re: Any DTS experts out there? [Re: Lampshade]
Kruncher Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 484
Loc: Maple Ridge, BC
While I wouldn't pretend to be an expert on DTS, this Wikipedia entry seems to discuss what your player is probably doing with DTS-HE/MA streams:
Quote:
DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, along with DTS-HD Master Audio, compose the DTS-HD extension to the original DTS audio format. It delivers up to 7.1 channels of sound at a 96 kHz sampling frequency and 24-bit depth resolution. DTS-HD High Resolution Audio is selected as an optional surround sound format for Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD, with constant bit rates up to 6.0 Mbit/s and 3.0 Mbit/s, respectively. It is supposed to be an alternative for DTS-HD Master Audio where disc space may not allow it. DTS-HD High Resolution Audio is implemented as a core DTS stream plus an extension containing the two additional channels plus deltas to enable 96/24 sound reproduction.


My emphasis, for the relevant bits.

Chris is bound to chime in on this one. laugh


Edited by Kruncher (04/26/12 08:14 PM)

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#374437 - 04/26/12 08:21 PM Re: Any DTS experts out there? [Re: Lampshade]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 736
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Lampshade
My Blu Ray player does not have Master Audio. It has DTS-HD. I used to think that I was getting almost the level of DTS-HD Master Audio. But then DTS-HD got cancelled by DTS, leaving only DTS-HD Master Audio. I am not sure if I am getting the the same audio as a DVD would have, or am I still getting somewhere in-between DVD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

I am not going to run out and buy a new player(eventually this player will get moved to my bedroom), but I am curious.

There is lots of info about the DTS core but most of it is a few years old now and I have not been able to sort it out.



FYI, The DTS Audio Codec White Paper on this describes each as follows:

DTS MA -- Variable Bit Rate
Up to 7.1 channels at 96Khz
5.1 channels at 192 KHz

DTS HD -- Constant Bit rate @ 2.0 - 6.0 MBPS
Up to 7.1 channels @ 96KHz

BOTH contain backward compatible DTS Digital Surround core.

You didn't indicate what you have your player connected to and if it is a relatively current AVR/Pre-Pro, what is showing on its front panel when you play a BD?

What does it all mean anyway? Given the way Blu-Ray disc movies are recorded today(Up to 7.1 channels @ 48KHZ), there would be no audible difference between the two so I really wouldn't worry about it.

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#374458 - 04/26/12 09:36 PM Re: Any DTS experts out there? [Re: Lampshade]
Lampshade Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1140
Loc: Holbrook, MA
I have a new Pioneer Elite SC55 hooked up with HDMI. When I watch a Dolby Tru HD the Pioneer says Tru HD. When I watch a DVD it will say Dolby Digital. When I watch a DTS HD Master Audio, it says DTS.
_________________________
M3 and Manley Stingray
M80 and Pioneer SC 55

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#374482 - 04/26/12 11:34 PM Re: Any DTS experts out there? [Re: Lampshade]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3447
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Yeah, if you're player isn't pulling the extended data of the Master Audio from the track, you're only getting the 1.5 Mbps basic DTS.

That may be slightly better than DVD, even though the original DVD spec called for 1.5 Mbps DTS, most content producers didn't want to give up that much of the 10 Mbps total mux rate (which is used by additional languages and subtitles, even when they're off), so DTS made a reduced rate 768 Mbps version of the format. That is what is usually used on DVDs that have a DTS track. But the Master Audio track contains a full 1.5 Mbps core on BDs. That's still a far cry from lossless though.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#374507 - 04/27/12 11:21 AM Re: Any DTS experts out there? [Re: Lampshade]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 736
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Lampshade
I have a new Pioneer Elite SC55 hooked up with HDMI. When I watch a Dolby Tru HD the Pioneer says Tru HD. When I watch a DVD it will say Dolby Digital. When I watch a DTS HD Master Audio, it says DTS.


Just wondering, I can't see where you mentioned the brand of your Blu-Ray player. I can recall some brands of first generation players requiring firmware updates to achieve all of the surround sound formats BUT, I must admit the idea of not having DTS MA decoding capability in the player while still having DTS HD, to me, is quite odd. Does it say just DTS on the front panel of the player as well?

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#374513 - 04/27/12 01:01 PM Re: Any DTS experts out there? [Re: Lampshade]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3447
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
DTS HD uses the base 5.1 DTS format, and packs the extra data as an extension (more channels, higher sampling rate, etc). The base DTS has to be decoded, and then the HD extensions applied to improve the quality. Where as with Master Audio, the base DTS is there, but it can be ignored and the lossless portion of the data gets decoded.

The original HD extension was messy, but followed in the tradition of all previous DTS extensions (6.1 and 96/24 were both available on DVDs, and would be bitstreamed without any updates to the player needed). So an up-to-date DTS decoder could easily pull the extended fields out and work with them. The Master Audio data is packed differently, and will be ignored by a decoder that isn't specifically aware of it.

By the way, Dolby Tru HD is actually just a tweak of MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing) that was used on DVD-Audio discs (and to send digital data to Meridian speakers before that). So a reference decoder was available before BD players went into production. DTS took a little longer to get their code for DTS HD MA to everyone. Even the first HDMI chips can't bitstream lossless DTS. Luckily the PS3 had enough CPU power available to be able to decode MA into PCM and send that out the older chip to the receiver.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#374520 - 04/27/12 03:29 PM Re: Any DTS experts out there? [Re: Lampshade]
Lampshade Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1140
Loc: Holbrook, MA
I have a Sony BDP-S500. When I bought it I saw DTS-HD and thought I was all set. Owners were pleading for a firmware update for years but it never came.
_________________________
M3 and Manley Stingray
M80 and Pioneer SC 55

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#374524 - 04/27/12 03:34 PM Re: Any DTS experts out there? [Re: Lampshade]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3447
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
It probably couldn't be fixed in firmware anyway, not enough power to decode DTS-HD MA in the player, and an old HDMI chip that can't bitstream it to a receiver.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#374525 - 04/27/12 03:41 PM Re: Any DTS experts out there? [Re: Lampshade]
Lampshade Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1140
Loc: Holbrook, MA
I knew I wasn't getting the Master Audio, but I thought I was getting DTS-HD. I am a little bummed out that I fell through the cracks.
Oh well. DTS movies still sound really good, and someday I will get a new player.
_________________________
M3 and Manley Stingray
M80 and Pioneer SC 55

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