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Re: Bookshelf and Bass Management
axiom_man #378462 06/13/12 02:10 AM
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Sound is sound. If the music happens to contain frequencies that are better reproduced by a sub than by the main speaker in question, then the music needs the sub. There should be no artificial distinction made between music and movies.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Bookshelf and Bass Management
axiom_man #378474 06/13/12 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: axiom_man

Yet, I am told you cannot hear the localization of lower frequencies, yet that it is best to have the M80's over Satelites because it give better bottom from the mains up front and fills the room.


I think you’ve been confused by the way things are being said. It is generally correct that in a room the direction of frequencies below about 80 Hz are difficult to discern becoming increasingly more difficult the lower the frequency, the farther from the source and the smaller the room. When people like me say that the M80s give you more “midbass” punch we’re talking about mostly the 50 Hz to 80 Hz range not the bottom end or below 50 or 40 Hz going down to slightly below 20 Hz.

While you still can’t hear the direction the midbass is coming from you can often feel it just like in the real world outside you can feel the direction an explosion comes from. I say often because it’s very dependent on the room size and shape and the seating distance from the source. Again generally the closer you are to the source of the midbass the more you feel the directionality. This is why HSU’s midbass modules are designed to be placed near the listener. So in reality the “ideal” system would have monitors for the mids and highs placed for best sound field, midbass modules placed near the listener for midbass punch and subwoofers placed for best bass response.

While I agree with John’s statement that sound is sound and that no artificial distinction should be made between music or movies I find in reality that isn’t always true because much of the action in movies overemphasizes the midbass frequencies even when you expect that the sound associated with the on-screen action should be a much lower frequency. I surmise this is partly because the movies being mastered for the average person are not expected to have a very good subwoofer so the keep them up above 40 Hz where they can actually be reproduced by someone’s home theater in a box. Also that many people associate punch with bass rather than the rumble you feel from truly deep bass which my Buttkicker tells me is not as prevalent as most people (waterfall graphs aside) would like to think. In most movies I have to turn the crossover on my Buttkicker up to 55 Hz or higher to get anything out of it at all even in movie scenes where there are earthquakes and other action that should shake and not punch.


3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1
Re: Bookshelf and Bass Management
axiom_man #378477 06/13/12 06:23 AM
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What is best is very much room dependent. Some people here have experimented with having the M80s at large as well as having a sub or two and found that gave them the best results.

In my room, it doesn't matter where the sub is, I get more or less the same room response.

I personally bought the M80s because I heard a difference in the mid range and treble.

You can drive yourself crazy with this stuff.


Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
Re: Bookshelf and Bass Management
axiom_man #378483 06/13/12 01:02 PM
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Low frequencies are more power hungry than high frequencies for a number of reasons. The peak demands are much greater in the low and midrange frequencies (below 300hz) because simply there is more content in the source material than content at 1000hz, 3000hz, 5000hz 10000hz etc. The most important aspect to look at is peak content in the source material below 200hz. When you look at impedance graphs of speakers its also very common this is where impedance minimums range (they can even dip in the 2-3 ohm range with some speakers. So running the speakers large this is where the majority of the current demand will be coming from.


I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

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Re: Bookshelf and Bass Management
axiom_man #378574 06/14/12 10:32 PM
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Part of the reason for the persistence of the Music vs Movies distinction is that very little music (especially popular music) has significant content below the low "E" on a bass guitar, which is around 40 hz. Maybe some portions of the kick drum spectrum. Maybe some outrageously low synthesizer notes. Otherwise there's just not much there. That's why the midbass modules mentioned above came about. Most of the visceral, chest-thumping impact that is associated with bass is in that region.

Anyway, tower speakers that adequately address the regions where music really resides tend to provide a coherent stereo soundstage for music. OTOH, subwoofers are better suited to capturing the low frequency effects so popular in movies. Thus the debate.

The real challenge is trying to build a single system that does both well (cause you're on a limited budget and your wife really isn't up for two separate rooms dedicated to music).


Music is the best -- FZ
Re: Bookshelf and Bass Management
whippersnapper #378578 06/15/12 02:24 AM
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Whip, you're certainly correct that most music has relatively little content in the area handled by subs(say below 100Hz). The IEC 268-1 power spectrum standard(shown in the power rating section here ), formulated based on an analysis of recordings of all types of music, shows an essentially equal requirement in the area from about 100Hz to 2000Hz. Both the bass area below 100Hz and the treble area above 2000Hz generally have a lower requirement. This of course isn't because upper bass and mid-range frequencies are inherently "power hungry"(see my above reply re this sort of misconception), but simply because there's more content and/or louder content in that frequency range.

Neither in theory nor in personal practice, however, have I experienced a "real challenge" in having a system that does an excellent job with both movie LFE(essentially all below about 80Hz)and the typically higher music frequencies. As long as the main speakers(whatever their size may be, whether termed a "tower" or "bookshelf")have good response to below the crossover with the sub, a smooth, continuous presentation results. With quality sub and mains(if they meet the required frequency response)both music and movie sound are enjoyed equally well.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Bookshelf and Bass Management
axiom_man #378579 06/15/12 02:25 AM
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That's the best part, I don't have a wife or GF.
SO I can build two systems.

I appreciate the advise of all, just havin a hard time figuring it out. I love really love the MK 750 for the clarity, imagining (Don't even need a centre channel ), mid-bass is surprisingly good, detail is unsurreal. However, as good as they are musically they are to, but just do not go low enough. 80hz is it. I can tell you I can her piss hitting the wall, if a guy was pissing like it was in the room. I own these now and am told the 950's are much better

Just I want the Axiom towers too and not sure yet the 60's or 80's.
I am having a set of 80's someday next year, but in either Sorel Pear or Beech in viynl or I may go for the real wood Cherry. I so wish they still had HG Cherry. But, not sure the extra 500$ is worth it.
There is a nice set of Oak 60's on Auction I may just go for them.
Thing is I only want black in the movie room. I have $1300 to spend now if needed.
So, I am grabbing something next week whether it's the 950's ,black M80's or 60's or say hell and get the b-stock 60's in the oak. Then again if I get the Oak I may like it alot and use it as my stereo system up in the living room.


Pioneer sc-1525
M80 HG Cherry
Re: Bookshelf and Bass Management
axiom_man #378595 06/15/12 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: axiom_man
That's the best part, I don't have a wife or GF.


Maybe it was because we are talking about things like sound dispersion or maybe it's because I hadn't put my glasses on yet but I read the above quote as....
"That's the best part, I don't have a wide GF."


With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.
Re: Bookshelf and Bass Management
whippersnapper #378599 06/15/12 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: whippersnapper


The real challenge is trying to build a single system that does both well (cause you're on a limited budget and your wife really isn't up for two separate rooms dedicated to music).


HAHA this is the part I was referring to from whippersnapper ....
and no I don't have a boyfriend either lol
single dad of a 12 yr old daughter don't need any other women drama. Plus I get to buy all my toys before a GF moves in. Figured it out this time, get my toys first


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M80 HG Cherry
Re: Bookshelf and Bass Management
JohnK #378600 06/15/12 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: JohnK
Whip, you're certainly correct that most music has relatively little content in the area handled by subs(say below 100Hz). The IEC 268-1 power spectrum standard(shown in the power rating section here ), formulated based on an analysis of recordings of all types of music, shows an essentially equal requirement in the area from about 100Hz to 2000Hz. Both the bass area below 100Hz and the treble area above 2000Hz generally have a lower requirement. This of course isn't because upper bass and mid-range frequencies are inherently "power hungry"(see my above reply re this sort of misconception), but simply because there's more content and/or louder content in that frequency range.

Neither in theory nor in personal practice, however, have I experienced a "real challenge" in having a system that does an excellent job with both movie LFE(essentially all below about 80Hz)and the typically higher music frequencies. As long as the main speakers(whatever their size may be, whether termed a "tower" or "bookshelf")have good response to below the crossover with the sub, a smooth, continuous presentation results. With quality sub and mains(if they meet the required frequency response)both music and movie sound are enjoyed equally well.


OK so down to my low level. ... . What I think you are saying is ..... regardless of BS or FS speakers if the systems cross over interlaps or blends well then both maybe good. The only issue with BS is that the lower frequencies tend to drop off higher up, so therefore the subs need to produce at a higher frequency. Hense maybe 100hz, then that's where I run into localization of the sub.
Whereas, ( I am sounding like a lawyer ) if I have FS, say M80's then they will drop off at 40hz , so I can crossover at 60hz and I should have no localization of the sub(s).

I just don't get where Miller an Kreisel suposably started this whole Sat/Sub Home Theatre craze say a Sat/Sub system is better


Pioneer sc-1525
M80 HG Cherry
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