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#204124 - 04/13/08 12:53 PM Re: Fitness Thread [Re: grunt]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3820
Loc: Up yonder
 Originally Posted By: grunt


I’m going to have to play the devils advocate to the creatine suggestions. Most people will realize little to no benefit from supplementing creatine because they are not pushing their muscles to their anaerobic limit every workout. Nor should they as this is advanced training that most professional athletes only use sparingly by cycling their workouts.

Going to temporary muscular failure on every set is a good way to hurt oneself and the efficacy of this training as a best practice is mixed at best. If someone finds it works best for them then stick with it, but advocating it as a routine practice to others without caveat is dangerous.

Grunt,

I’ve been in this game for a long time…. at least 25 years. While I understand where you are coming from with your post full of words of caution, others who read them may not understand where you are coming from. You sound like an attorney or a doctor who has been in court before to me.

When I recommend creatine, it is under the assumption that folks will also follow my work out advice and that they will in fact put forth the effort and discipline that I do, and have done these past two and half decades. In other words, if you are just going to go through the motions, creatine will do you no good whatsoever. However, if a person pushes their body as hard as I do, creatine not only works, but it’s absolutely essential. When I don’t take the stuff, I notice a dramatic effect. I can not lift as much, run as fast and my recovery is much slower. I have done extensive experiments with the stuff over the years and speak from personal experience. Out of the tens of thousands that I have spent on different supplements over the years, creatine is the ONLY supplement I take religiously. No other supplement has worked for me with undeniable benefits.

You also caution against going to failure on each set. I’m not sure if you are cautioning against what I have wrote earlier, but if you are, I do not, nor did I make that recommendation. Complete failure would require a spotter who assists with the last rep or reps in a set. To go that far is silly and destructive without using steroids (which is also silly). A natural body builder can not do this. I do however stand by what I wrote earlier, and that is…..the last rep should be at, or as close to as possible, to 100% max effort as possible. To further explain what that means, it means that the last rep is all you can physically complete without the aid of a spotter. It takes time and experience to gauge what you can do and if you should go for one more rep or not. Obviously, working out with some nearby to catch the bar is advisable if you are just starting out. Not only does it hurt like hell to get pinned under a bar with several hundred pounds on it, but it’s down right embarrassing…. You have to know your body and your limitations and work out with caution if you work out alone and work out hard. Keep a log so you can smartly gauge what you do next workout, and most importantly, be careful. Torn muscles and ligaments take a long time to heal and most never heal completely (speaking from experience). I dislocated my shoulder after eating dirt on my dirt bike ten years ago and it’s never been the same.
_________________________


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#204139 - 04/13/08 04:18 PM Re: Fitness Thread [Re: michael_d]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Mdrew,

Sorry if I misunderstood your post about 100% maximum effort and creatine use, but even rereading that post it sounds like you were advocating some advanced training techniques to people seeking to just shape up and loose weight. I also wasn’t sure others reading your post would understand the assumptions you were making which was why I put up the caution flag.

No, I’m not a doctor or lawyer, just and aircraft mechanic. I too have been in the game for awhile about 33 years now. Started in High School and then got real serious about it as a fitness instructor in the Marine Corps. The reason I’m so cautious is that a part of my job was to help rehab Marines who injured themselves by pushing their workouts to much before they were ready for it.

As for me I gave up power lifting and took up running again about 5 years ago when I quit firefighting. While lifting I tried creatine but didn’t feel it was worth it for me but I know many people who it has helped so I have nothing against it being used by experienced people who are serious about their training. Now I’m back into ultra-running (also not for the inexperienced). The only supplements I use are potassium and sodium for any runs over 50k and for shorter runs when the temperature starts hitting the 100s.

Again sorry for the misunderstanding as I too share a passion for fitness and like to see others interested in joining us.
_________________________
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#204153 - 04/13/08 06:17 PM Re: Fitness Thread [Re: grunt]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
50K run? You're my fitness hero (next to my mutant neighbor who I swear has 4 lungs and twin hearts \:\) ).

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#204180 - 04/14/08 01:28 AM Re: Fitness Thread [Re: Mojo]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11053
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Some of you people are freaks. I'm just happy to be moving around a little more like I used to.
_________________________
SuperGrand UltraDeluxe (Plus Extra More)

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#204189 - 04/14/08 08:49 AM Re: Fitness Thread [Re: Amie]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6269
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Amie
An interesting free resource is fitday.com. You can enter all your food and exercise for the week and it will let you know what nutrients you're low on, if you're meeting your custom goals ...

I went to fitday.com, typed in my food intake, and this hand came out of my monitor, slapped me around, shoved my cookies off my desk, shook a finger at me, and then pointed at the patient waiting in the lobby. Sheesh.
_________________________
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains.

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#204194 - 04/14/08 11:19 AM Re: Fitness Thread [Re: medic8r]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
My experience was a little different. It told me that if I eat three meals of 1/3 cup oatmeal a day and run 10 miles a day, in a month I'll weigh 2 pounds \:D .

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#204230 - 04/14/08 03:08 PM Re: Fitness Thread [Re: michael_d]
snakeyes Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/13/04
Posts: 828
Loc: Newburgh, NY
Good advice so far. Here’s some more ideas for you that have worked for me in the past when I want to cut up….

If your primary goal is to loose fat, your workouts will be slightly different than maintenance or muscle mass increase workouts (you need to keep intensity up and do higher reps, more sets with lighter weight). If you can, I’d split your workouts to where you do cardio first thing in the morning before you eat or drink anything and do your weight training in the evenings.
2 questions on this lets assume that right now my schedule does not permit the split workout do you think i should be doing my cardio first then weights?Also I have very bad experiences when working out in the morning on an empty stomache so would my best option be protein shake or oatmeal?
Shorter times in the gym are better for me as I can’t concentrate on my work outs if I’m thinking about all the other stuff I need to accomplish that day. Also, cardio or weight training in the AM after fasting will almost double the amount of fat burning than if you were to do it later in the day.
Some rules of thumb for burning fat are: cardio for at least 30 minutes without pause (preferably running), four times a week and increase intensity each work out to maintain a heart rate between 140 – 160 (for your age). As you get more wind you will have to increase intensity to keep your heart rate up. Because you will be working out fairly intensely, do cardio every other day to give your legs a day to recover. I have found that for weight training, a schedule where I lift Monday and Tuesday, off Wed, and work out again on Thursday and Friday, with the weekend off works best for me. I work each body part once per week when just maintaining or putting on mass, and I keep a log when I am trying to gain mass. If I don’t keep a log, I have no goals to shoot for, so I tend to get lazy. The log keeps me motivated. I’d suggest you do the same.

When cutting up (with the goal to loose fat), it’s best to stick with basic, whole body exercises because you will burn more calories doing so. Squats and dead lifts are excellent for this. Stay away from isolation exercises like flys or dumbbell curls. Straight barbell curls, flat bench press, V-grip or barbell bent over rows, standing military press are all good exercises. I’d recommend that you do upper body on Monday and again on Thursday and lower body on Tuesday and Friday. Again, stick to the big exercises. Keep the reps between 12 and 15 and do a combination of sets to where you are doing about 20 sets per work out. Do a push / pull superset work out with little rest between sets to keep your heart rate up. You should be able to do your work outs in less than 45 minutes. Vary the exercises to keep things interesting. An example work out would be:
Just for clarification when you say superset you mean instead of resting do a set of the other exercise? Also Thank You to you and all who have given input so far.
Monday-
AM – Jog
PM - weights
Flat Bench / V-grip pull superset – five sets of 12-15 reps.
Bar bell curl / tri push down superset – five sets of 12 -15 reps.
Tuesday-
AM - weights
Squats – five sets / 12 – 15 reps
Straight leg dead lift – five sets / 12 – 15 reps
Seated calf raises / crunches supersets – five sets 20 reps each. (calf and abs require higher reps)
Wednesday-
AM - Jog
No lifting
Thursday –
AM - weights
Incline press / Bent over rows superset - four sets of 12-15 reps.
Military press / dumbbell shrugs superset - four sets of 12-15 reps.
Easy bar curls / close grip bench press superset - four sets of 12-15 reps.
Friday-
AM – Jog
PM - Weights
Leg Press / hamstring curls superset – six sets of 15 reps.
Calf extensions (on the press) / abdominal leg raise supersets – six sets 20 reps.
Saturday
OFF
Sunday
AM – Jog
No lifting

The following week, change things a bit. Make sure to take plenty of Creatine and if your legs hurt too much to run after leg days, ride a bike or hop on the elliptical.

And always remember that the last rep you do for every set, should be at 100% maximum effort. Add / subtract weight as needed to reach the target rep.

Record your weight and measurements to track results. Avoid idle overeating when sitting in front of the boob tube……. TV is the #1 reason for obesity. Slam a non-fat protein shake Most of the protein powders i have seen have at least 2Grams fat per scoop is there a non-fat powder you would recomend?i was looking at getting This (mixed with water) before you go to bed.
_________________________
------------------------------------------------
Leave the gun, Take the canolis.

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#204271 - 04/14/08 06:14 PM Re: Fitness Thread [Re: snakeyes]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3820
Loc: Up yonder
Frankly, the whole reason for working out in the AM, is to do so on an empty stomach. When you work out after a fasting period, fat is burnt for fuel at a much higher rate than possible doing so any other way. I do not recall the exact figures, but I seem to recall fat burning is more than doubled. Normally, your metabolism burns carbohydrates for fuel and when it runs out them, it starts using protein, then it starts using fat. After a fast, it turns to fat for fuel first. But if you can not work out on an empty stomach, I’d recommend you stick with just enough oatmeal to ease the discomfort. You may even be able to get away with a cup of coffee……

If you can not split your workouts into two times per day, I personally would rather do cardio first (and I do when I do both in one session). When I’m done with the weights, I don’t have the energy for cardio. I just want to go home and relax for a while.

Supersets are doing two exercises back to back without rest. Normally a short rest period is needed between sets. When you do supersets, you pair up two different exercises from two different muscle groups and do them back to back without rest. That is where “push-pull” comes into play. You do a chest exercise first, then immediately do a back exercise. You can get away without resting because you are using two different “prime” muscle groups. By working out without rest, your heart rate remains higher, which will ultimately burn more calories. Anaerobic exercise (weight training) is not a very efficient method for weight reduction, but needed. Supersets help in this regards. I always do supersets when I work out with the exception of the days I work legs. When I work legs I’m too exhausted between sets to do anything else. I’ve actually spent quite a bit of time hugging porcelain on leg days after doing some heavy squats. But for all other body parts, I prefer to do supersets because I get out the gym quicker.

I’ve tried many different brands and types of protein and I always migrate back to EAS products. I really liked their Precision Protein, but I can’t find it anymore. I think they stopped making the stuff. It was / is expensive, but damn that stuff worked great. – It mixed perfectly too…. Well anyway, I have been using the same thing you posted a link to. - EAS 100% Whey Protein. It mixes well, tastes good (for protein anyway) and has a fat content of less than 20%.

There’s two books that I rather like, and the only two that I recommend (and I’ve read dozens). One for folks new to weight training is Body for Life, by Bill Philips. Philips is the owner of EAS and there’s a lot of differing opinions about him and his marketing, but I think Body for Life is an outstanding book for folks just getting into this. He also has a couple more books out, but I have not read them. The second book, and my all time favorite, is Arnold Schwarzenegger’s New Encyclopedia of Modern Body Building. He revised it in 99 and I have yet to find a book with more useful information in it than this one.

http://www.amazon.com/Body-Life-Mental-P...08210405&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/New-Encyclopedia-M...08210540&sr=1-1
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#204306 - 04/14/08 11:02 PM Re: Fitness Thread [Re: michael_d]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
You must attempt to work out first thing in the morning before you have anything to eat or drink. I don't even have water. I am simply amazed with how much more stamina I have. Also I've found that my appetite throughout the day is tremendously suppressed.

When I first read Mike's post about this, I thought "There's no way I can do this". I thought I'd have a heck of a time with it but I've been surprised to find out that I'm not even hungry early in the morning. I think I just ate because...well...that's what you're supposed to do! After the work-out, I have a third of a cup of oatmeal, a fruit, a coffee and sometimes a slice or two of turkey.

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#204325 - 04/15/08 10:55 AM Re: Fitness Thread [Re: michael_d]
snakeyes Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/13/04
Posts: 828
Loc: Newburgh, NY
Mike thanks for you follow-up you hit all the points perfectly. As for the AM workout when i used to work out on an empty stomache i would have to stop do nausea (sp?) and a few times puked. Though I wonder if drinking the protein shake before i go to bed will take care of that problem.Anyway Thanks for the help and i do know what superset is i just get confused between that and when you start at your max weight do one set and with no rest do another set at lower weight. i forget what that is called.

Jake
_________________________
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Leave the gun, Take the canolis.

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