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#394882 - 07/05/13 11:18 AM Re: New LFR1100 woofer ***** [Re: Ian]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Thanks Ian and Andrew!

I don't use an 80 Hz crossover - my LFR's and VP180 are running full range.

In my current setup I probably wouldn't have enough space behind the centre to allow for good performance of an LFR style speaker. But I would certainly be able to accomodate an upgraded VP with 2 or preferably 3 of the new woofers. (I expect I'd order one about as soon as you guys figure out how to make it - if not sooner!) I also eventually will build a new HT room and would plan to fit an LFR centre if at all possible.

So I am anxious to hear more about what might be doable!

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#394883 - 07/05/13 11:45 AM Re: New LFR1100 woofer [Re: Andrew]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 768
Loc: Toronto
Hi Andrew:

"Ohh, to long for the days of the big old RPCRTs where you had room to put centre channel speakers on top of the television"! Yep, as you well stated, that was the problem with the bipolar Mirage centres where they needed the space, however, another I think was that they were relatively small and for their size, quite expensive.

I, certainly, would be one who would definitely be interested in such a design, especially in a large centre because with the way dialog is locked on quite well with recent movie soundtracks, if you could produce that somewhat more "airy", "open" feel to the sound coming out of the centre channel, it would still be coming from the correct place, however, it would probably sound more natural.

Of course, if one wanted to carry this all one step further, you could do what DefTech recently did and build a powered centre channel with small subwoofers.


Edited by casey01 (07/05/13 11:46 AM)

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#394884 - 07/05/13 11:46 AM Re: New LFR1100 woofer [Re: Andrew]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Andrew
Originally Posted By: casey01
Ian, it looks like you were reading my mind as I had speculated about this very topic in the center channel reference thread on June 30. You will remember that for years, although on a considerably smaller scale, Mirage had center channel models with a rear firing speaker designed to expand the sound stage, however, they were fairly expensive, especially for their size.I am not sure but I believe "DefTech" had a couple of these designs as well. As you know, Mirage later replaced these with their "omnipolar" designs and I owned one for a brief period and although I wasn't particularly thrilled with the over all sound, it did have probably the best "off-axis" performance, by far, that I had ever heard in a center channel speaker.

I wondered myself, in order to match these new "giant size" mains, how one would design it and how big would it have to be in order to compete performance wise with the M100/LFR1100? An interesting design challenge, I am sure, however, I would suspect, if you were able to be successful in coming up with such a model in a type of "bi-polar" center channel, it would be a winner and because of the expanded soundstage, and the more I think of it, it could probably be an easier and more flexible match with any of the other models as well.


Ah ha! I knew that it wouldn't be long until there was talk about an "LFR" centre channel. And I have a long history of working with "unconventional" centre channel designs. My first design for Mirage was actually their first bi-polar centre, the OM-C2. Great product but one which was compromised in most applications. The main thing to keep in mind is that an omni-directional speaker system like the LFR needs space around it and room for the rear wave information to radiate out into the room. For all of the LFR owners, have a look at where you have your speakers placed and ask yourself if you could place a centre channel in the same manner. I'd bet that most of you will say "No, I need to place it on or in a cabinet of some sort". This was the typical customer complaint with the Mirage bipolar and Omnipolar centres; they would get them home, shove them on a shelf, and then call us saying that it didn't sound right, etc. So, IF you have the setup that can allow it, an omni-directional centre has merit. And, yes, if there is enough interest we can happily consider it!

On the topic of the new woofers, I had worked on the original design with the intent of this woofer being of reasonably high impedance (9ohms Rdc) to work in a 3-woofer system like the LFR (and now M100). It was also designed to perform best as a woofer only, with minimal consideration given to how it would behave if crossed over directly to a tweeter. So for now there are no plans for a souped-up M3 or to offer the woofers for other models in the Axiom line-up. However, there seems to be enough interest in an upgrade for the M80 that I will investigate the possibility of a version of this new woofer for that system.


After re-reading this I guess I should expand on my previous post.

In my current setup my VP180 is mounted on a custom shelf above my screen. There is plenty of space above and to the sides of the speaker but not much behind. This is due to the limited choices of shelves and brackets available in my local big box hardware store. If an LFR style centre could be designed with some kind of mounting system that would position it properly I may well be able to fit it in and would be VERY interested in doing so. I would also think that some kind of combination stand/tv mount might work for those who have their centre below their screens. So Andrew please do think about how the centre might be fit into real-world systems and give us some ideas!

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#394885 - 07/05/13 02:04 PM Re: New LFR1100 woofer [Re: Ian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8292
Loc: Tacoma
I think positioning the LFR center to sit on the floor below the screen would offer the most stable design point for the DSP. Lots of people have either projection screens or wall-mounted plasma/LCD displays that could probably accommodate such placement. But it would need to be relatively short.

Making it a horizontal speaker seems like a non-starter since the DSP wouldn't know ANY of the boundary dimensions.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#394888 - 07/05/13 02:31 PM Re: New LFR1100 woofer [Re: Ian]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

And just think; when I bought my M80s there were so many posts about how no one really needs that large of a speaker and the complications on positioning. Makes me wonder why things have changed so much around here.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#394892 - 07/05/13 06:56 PM Re: New LFR1100 woofer [Re: Ian]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
I'm still loven SRV on my 80's Rick, hope your doing well!
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#394894 - 07/05/13 07:20 PM Re: New LFR1100 woofer [Re: SirQuack]
BBIBH Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1045
Loc: Canada
Rick, I was thinking the same thing. People also commented on equipment (amps, speakers) costing thousands of dollars, and now Axiom makes that level of equipment! grin
_________________________
Regards,

Mike

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#394895 - 07/05/13 08:44 PM Re: New LFR1100 woofer [Re: SirQuack]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Originally Posted By: PorterPlex
I'm still loven SRV on my 80's Rick, hope your doing well!


Things have been good Randy, thanks.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#394896 - 07/05/13 08:45 PM Re: New LFR1100 woofer [Re: BBIBH]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Originally Posted By: BBIBH
Rick, I was thinking the same thing. People also commented on equipment (amps, speakers) costing thousands of dollars, and now Axiom makes that level of equipment! grin


True Mike, I recall. But now it's all good.


Edited by Wid (07/05/13 08:46 PM)
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#394897 - 07/05/13 09:01 PM Re: New LFR1100 woofer [Re: Ian]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
I hope Rick is doing ok down in FL, his last post was 7.1.2012
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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