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#395401 - 07/22/13 07:03 PM Best sub for 2.1 use
Hellcommute Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 146
Title says it all. What is the best sub in the entire axiom lineup for 2.1 use in a dedicated listening room.

I am looking for accuracy, texture and ability to blend with high quality monitors.

I'm assuming the ep400, as it is sealed, but input is appreciated.

Thanks! smile

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#395403 - 07/22/13 07:09 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11062
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
EP800 is also sealed, but really, I'd probably wait on what they say about the new subs at this point.
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#395407 - 07/22/13 08:54 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4333
Loc: Marion, IA
What are your main speakers?
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#395413 - 07/22/13 09:19 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 6961
Loc: Canada
If by 2.1 you mean for music playback, then the EP350 would be sufficient for most content. If you happen to like pipe organ music or the like that may have content going down to 20 Hz or slightly below, then the EP400 or 500 would work well.

An EP 800 would be oberkill for music playback.

Nick also makes a good point. If you have the M80s and listen to nothing but rock, you don't need a sub.


Edited by fredk (07/22/13 09:20 PM)
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#395414 - 07/22/13 09:31 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
Hellcommute Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 146
They are Leema Xero Bookshelf speakers. The -3db point is around 55hz.

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#395415 - 07/22/13 10:05 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
exlabdriver Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 809
My take on one & then two EP400s:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/379990/12/Audio_Only_System_Renewal

Fabulous for music - the best that I've heard...

TAM

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#395416 - 07/22/13 10:16 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10307
Regardless of the bass extension spec, the 4" mid-woofer on that speaker would make a crossover of 80Hz or higher desirable to minimize bass distortion and allow for a cleaner mid-range. Just about any type of music would benefit, although obviously music with significant content below about 40Hz, such as pipe organ, would make a good sub especially essential.

A closed sub enclosure wouldn't necessarily be of advantage with respect to accuracy, anymore than the ported design of the speakers degrades their accuracy. Depending on budget and the extent of low bass content in the music played, anything from an EP350 to an EP800 could be suggested.

Be sure that your equipment has adequate bass management provisions to realize the full benefits of adding a sub.
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#395417 - 07/22/13 10:44 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
Hellcommute Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 146
The sub's crossover would be used and set at 60hz. The amp I use is a 2 channel integrated amp (arcam a19) with stereo pre-outs that will provide line level rca output to the sub.

Does anyone know if any of the newer planned subs have stereo rca input for a summed output for use of both stereo channels?

It seems the current subs are meant for LFE channel use only. That is fine for HT. Not so much for music. Can an RCA Female to Male Y cable be used for this situation?

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#395420 - 07/22/13 11:03 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10307
Note that subs don't have internal crossovers. The control that's sometimes (mis)labeled as such is only a low-pass filter which rolls off the sub above the frequency set, but has no effect on attached speakers. They would be forced to attempt to run full-range, without the benefits of bass management.

The question about the Y cable isn't entirely clear, but use of a Y to combine two into one rather than split one into two is inadvisable and can lead to at least distortion. The signal coming down one branch of the Y doesn't know that it's supposed to just go into the sub and also runs up the other branch in the opposite direction.
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#395423 - 07/22/13 11:59 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
exlabdriver Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 809
I run my sats (M2s) at full range thru the Speaker Level Inputs as my integrated tube amp has no LFE controls. The sub's LP filter is set at 100Hz which is no problem for a powerful 8 incher like the EP400 to play cleanly.

Sounds quite spectacular in my setting IMO...

TAM

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#395597 - 07/29/13 01:52 AM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: exlabdriver]
Captain4105 Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 119
Loc: Southern California
Not wishing to stray, but which subwoofer would be best to compliment M80's for classical music (pipe organ frequencies)? I'm thinking EP500. What improvements is Axiom considering for new subs? Any idea when they'll be available?

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#395598 - 07/29/13 06:17 AM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1237
Loc: Quebec, Canada
i do have some organ CDs where bass frequencies go down only to around 32 Hz or higher;
at least one of them goes down to 7 Hz.

that's a whole world of difference when you listen to them.

if you want it all, then you should get the sub (s) that goes the lowest in frequencies, with high output.
the HT room size will also make a difference: small rooms reinforce the very low frequencies more than large rooms will.
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#396228 - 08/19/13 07:24 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
Be aware that all Axiom subs to the date use a single input, unless you want to use the high speaker input, which IMO defeats the purpose of having the amp there, as you are using your amp to feed the sub, and just the Xover is used...what requires a dedicated output from the stereo amp, for subwoofer use, or create a box to sum the two channels, without mixing them...which 99% of the time is not available. That was the main reason I opted for a Velodyne, that, as many other subs in the market, use the two channels and sum them internally, and I'm very happy with it, as it offers also room corrections, different EQs (which I do not use) and many other features that Axiom subs does not offer...Not saying that they are bad or worse, just different, and had special requirements, a real shame I do not have a dedicated pre-out for sub use in my Marantz...
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#396234 - 08/20/13 12:04 AM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
exlabdriver Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 809
I use my pair of EP400s using the 'Speaker Input Terminals' as my Tube Integrated Amp has no other outputs.

I can assure you that the 'Speaker Inputs' utilize the subs' internal 500W amps. There is no way that my 35W/Ch Tube Amp will drive them to high levels by itself. Besides the Gain Control on the back of the subs increase/decrease the output of the sub amps & hence the overall volume. Furthermore, the On/Off Switch kills all sub sound output when turned off...

TAM

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#396236 - 08/20/13 04:07 AM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: sovkiller]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10307
Sov, as Tom pointed out, the internal sub amp is what drives the sub, regardless of whether the speaker level inputs on the sub are used. Due to the very high impedance on the speaker level inputs(in the tens of thousands of ohms)essentially no power from the external amplifier is used, although the signal content does get through to the internal sub amp.
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#396254 - 08/21/13 09:18 AM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: exlabdriver]
troyd Offline
local

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 288
I brought htis up a couple years ago about having two EP400's for music. Just to give the M80's a litle more refined bottom.
But, was asked what size room ? I said 13w x 18L x 7.5h and was told by most on this site the EP400 would be pointless as it is only meant for small rooms. I didn't want to fill the room with bass, just to compliment the M80's a bit more.

So, that said as I was told if in larger room probably an EP350 would be better, EP 500 even better yet
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#396259 - 08/21/13 12:31 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
exlabdriver Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 809
troyd:

Last year when I was contemplating an EP400 for my audio only system, that was the prevailing wisdom here - the EP400 was too small for my room.

Well, since I generally go against the grain anyway, I bought one with M2s to try out & found that it was wonderfully powerful & musical even in the large space at moderate levels - up to 90 Db or so. I liked it so much that I recently bought a second EP400 just to give each M2 it's own sub. This is a very potent & articulate system for music.

Sometimes I believe that we tend to bias too much toward HT when providing advice. Read about my EP400 journey here:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/379990/Audio_Only_System_Renewal#Post379990

TAM

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#396260 - 08/21/13 12:54 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10680
Loc: Central NH
TAM, many likely shared that opinion on the EP400 because that's the way it was marketed bt Axiom: Deep bass for small rooms. I don't know if that's still how it's aimed.
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#396261 - 08/21/13 02:00 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
exlabdriver Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 809
Mark:

Agreed. The EP400 is still marketed that way but the way that I read it, the inference is for HT applications that can be much more demanding than most music.

Anyway, my twin EP400s work in a stellar fashion for me in a music only role in a fairly large room. I highly recommend the EP400 in a stereo setup...

TAM

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#396287 - 08/21/13 11:42 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: exlabdriver]
troyd Offline
local

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 288
Amen

I will bet in my room for music only , this M80 and EP400 be kick A$$
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#396298 - 08/22/13 11:30 AM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3822
Loc: Up yonder
I was using an EP600 for two channel music along with some tower speakers (Opus 2.2). Then I ended up with a spare set of M80's not being used, so I turned my 2.1 system into a 4.1 system, using the M80's as surround speakers. The sub is crossed at 60. This area is about 26 X 32 and the system rocks. Anyone who says a 600 doesn't work well with music, because it isn't a sealed sub probably hasn't heard one, or is just talking from somewhere dark and stinky on their person. It sounds great, and much better than an sealed Outlaw sub I was using. I've installed an EP400 for a friend and wasn't all that impressed with it. I reckon it would do just fine for an office or small bedroom, but based on my personal experience, that's all I'd consider it for, and most definatley, not pair it with M60's or M80's. There is no way it'll keep up with either. The EP500 is a great sub. I have two of those for my HT room and do not have a want for more.
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#396299 - 08/22/13 01:34 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
exlabdriver Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 809
michael:

Well my experiences with one EP400 & then a second one are certainly different from yours. They fit my near field listening space perfectly (9' from L & R) plus they fill my rather large room with quality, articulate sound that can also be felt.

As with my HT system downstairs in a similarly shaped room, I believe that this irregular shape contributes to the excellent sound quality that I get from both of my systems.

I suppose that if I wanted to drive my audio system to over 100 Db (unwise & unnecessary for me) then I would seek out something bigger I guess...

TAM

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#396301 - 08/22/13 02:36 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: michael_d]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8135
Loc: Tacoma
Originally Posted By: michael_d
...do not have a want for more.


I'm just going to pull this out of context and call bullsh!t because it's one of my hobbies.
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#396310 - 08/22/13 07:18 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
Hellcommute Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 146
Leaning towards an SVS SB12-NSD..... SB13 Ultra is too pricey.

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#396316 - 08/22/13 09:48 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5651
Loc: Some random location
Good choice.

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#396319 - 08/22/13 10:01 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: Hellcommute]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10307
If you're going with an SVS in that price range, consider the PC12-NSD. Note the impressive test in the September issue of Sound&Vision.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#396374 - 08/24/13 08:20 PM Re: Best sub for 2.1 use [Re: tomtuttle]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3822
Loc: Up yonder
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Originally Posted By: michael_d
...do not have a want for more.


I'm just going to pull this out of context and call bullsh!t because it's one of my hobbies.


Hard to believe but true. I really don't want to do anything more for the audio side of my systems. Didn't even pause when the M100 news hit. I do like the grills though.... On the video side....I did just order a new HE lens smile
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