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#395429 - 07/23/13 01:48 AM Re: Broadband DSP Correction [Re: Ian]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 202
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
So let me see if I understand what Ian and Andrew are trying to explain: the DSP box essentially reduces some small differences in loudness between nearby frequencies as reproduced by the speakers. I guess this would be most noticable if you were playing music that included something like scales, or hitting each key on a piano sequentially. Even then the biggest difference (without DSP) should be something close to 5 db in the 60-90 Hz range which would be corrected to something less than 3 db by using the DSP.

This is a very subtle difference indeed.

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#395438 - 07/23/13 10:32 AM Re: Broadband DSP Correction [Re: cohesion]
Charles65 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/22/13
Posts: 14
Thank you cohesion. That is what I thought too (and effectively that is what is in the spec).

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#395439 - 07/23/13 11:23 AM Re: Broadband DSP Correction [Re: Andrew]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Andrew, if you're still watching this thread I thought of something that might be nice for people to see.

Since you have different DSP routines for the different speakers, can you make a "null" routine? One that just passes the input to the output?

Load that, and post a sweep showing how transparent the ADC-DSP-DAC signal chain is in the audible frequency range.

As for a direct digital input, the above should show how unnecessary it is, but also it would be difficult to make use of it. First you'd need something doing digital volume control, unless you like ALL REFERENCE LEVELS ALL THE TIME. Plus with HDMI and HDCP it's difficult to get a digital output for most media these days.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#395440 - 07/23/13 11:38 AM Re: Broadband DSP Correction [Re: Charles65]
Charles65 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/22/13
Posts: 14
That brings another question: I wonder what would be the "upgrade" in taking a signal already converted (from digital to analog) using a multi thousands $ DAC (from Linn) that goes into another multiT$ Linn preamp to make it reconverted back from a $950 Axiom audio that does what an equalizer would do (if I understood correctly what the DSP is doing at the end)? Correct me if I am wrong but would you not say that the first graph which shows the reponse of the speakers depends on the quality of the signal going out of the preamp (and that is why you are correcting the signal). So DSP box will improve the sound if you have a lower quality source (DAC or other) and a lower quality pream than what the Axiom DSP is. I know money is not everything (your speakers are the proof of that) but still each time I tried to hook less expensive electronics on my Linn system that are supposed to improved the sound, it did the reverse (ie hugely downgrading the sound quality).

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#395441 - 07/23/13 12:03 PM Re: Broadband DSP Correction [Re: ClubNeon]
Charles65 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/22/13
Posts: 14
ClubNeon, I was asking about the direct digital input because there is still an audiophile market for good external DAC. So if the DSP can already convert digital signal to analog better than most low end CD player, streamer or whatever you are using as a music source, why not trying to get a share of this market? But I understand it could require some modifications in the circuitry.

P.S. HDMI and HDCP are for video contents. I was not talking about home theater but only stereo listening. Most hi-end audiophile product don't even have HDMI. Some mid end like Rotel or Arcam have it.

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#395442 - 07/23/13 12:22 PM Re: Broadband DSP Correction [Re: Charles65]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8267
Loc: Tacoma
Originally Posted By: Charles65
That brings another question: I wonder what would be the "upgrade" in taking a signal already converted (from digital to analog) using a multi thousands $ DAC (from Linn) that goes into another multiT$ Linn preamp to make it reconverted back from a $950 Axiom audio that does what an equalizer would do


I think you're missing the point, oversimplifying, and on the verge of audiophile trolling.
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#395443 - 07/23/13 02:27 PM Re: Broadband DSP Correction [Re: tomtuttle]
Charles65 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/22/13
Posts: 14
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
I think you're missing the point, oversimplifying, and on the verge of audiophile trolling.
First I do not know what audiophile trolling is (note that english is not my first language) but I suspect this is not a compliment. And second I don't find your anwser very usefull because it does not explain anything. So if the point of the DSP box is not to correct the signal before the amp sends it to the speakers then tell me what is it? Note that I understand the DSP box is technologically different than an analog equalizer and is achieving everythnig more precisely. But the goal is the same no? (in this case adjustment of the Q which determines the sharpness of the bandwidth and eventually to compensate for the room's acoustics. But I also guess the graphs here are from an anechoic room).

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#395444 - 07/23/13 03:27 PM Re: Broadband DSP Correction [Re: Ian]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
It's just that I think you'll find most people here would find a multi-thousand dollar DAC a complete waste of money.

Yeah, this DSP box probably has a DAC that measures better than a $10 CD player, but what can be measured, and what can be heard are two different things.

Any modern DAC will far outperform what the human ear can detect. An ADC/DAC pair will pass a band-limited signal without any audible change, and virtually no measurable change. The only place where they man be some noise creping into the system will be in the analog input/output, but that will likely be more than 90 dB below the signal, even further down when using balanced connectors.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#395447 - 07/23/13 04:27 PM Re: Broadband DSP Correction [Re: ClubNeon]
Charles65 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/22/13
Posts: 14
Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
It's just that I think you'll find most people here would find a multi-thousand dollar DAC a complete waste of money.
Thanks for your answer ClubNeon. And I agree that what can be measured and what can be heard is very very different. That is why I have always said that the most important component in a sound system is the room! Regarding the waste of money, I understand what you are saying. But then that is until you've listen to some! And I am talking about A\B switch blind testing. My listening experience over the years showed me that the source is as important as the speakers. And frankly if I would be someone who judge the audio quality only by its price, would you think I would have bought Axiom speakers?

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#395461 - 07/23/13 09:50 PM Re: Broadband DSP Correction [Re: Charles65]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10359
Charles, welcome. The DSP correction as used with the LFR1100s is designed to alter loudness, frequency and phase differences between the output of the front and back drivers. The purpose is to reduce the conflicts between front and back output which occur when those outputs are identical(as they are in some less sophisticated omni-directional designs).

As to some of the other points raised, both theory and personal experience indicate that there's no real audible(as distinguished from measurable)benefit from so-called "high end" DACs and other processors. A great thing about the current audio scene is the availability of electronic components which give us audibly flawless performance at quite low cost.
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