Get Free, Friendly, Expert Advice
Call 1-866-244-8796 or email

Designed and Manufactured in Canada Since 1980


AxiomAudio Blog

Blind Listening Tests

Sneak Peek into Axiom’s Current Research and Development

Axiom’s Newest Speaker: The In-Ceiling M3

Wall'O'Fame
Experimental Atmos
Greetings fellow Axiom owners...
Who's Online
4 registered (fredk, nickbuol, Da_Gimp_Pimp, difeng), 51 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Financing
Forum Stats
13326 Members
11 Forums
22918 Topics
405128 Posts

Max Online: 378 @ 02/24/13 04:33 PM
Top Posters
Ken.C 17789
pmbuko 16289
SirQuack 13339
CV 11235
MarkSJohnson 10938
Meanwhile On Facebook

Did you get your "Golden Email"? The great gift certificate email giveaway star...

Here's a helpful article for everyone looking at putting a new stereo or home th...

Interesting article about who's getting the money from streaming radio services...

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#395645 - 07/31/13 12:19 PM M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio?
NOLAGT Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 189
Loc: Nawlins LA
Has anyone used the M3 in-walls in the ceilings for just music? I just ordered a pair (not here yet) to try out hooked to the sonos connect:amp (55w rms x 2) to see how they sound. I have been trying to figure out what speakers I want to use in my house in the ceilings for music. I really like the ease of the sonos and the fact that there are so many music options built in and I can control from my iphone. Will 55w be enough for the m3 in walls? I am not looking for just soft background music...I want it to have nice full sound with some bass. Sometimes I may have them jamming sometimes might be background. For now I am going to just stand them up on top of some cabinets in my current house to see how they sound in a few rooms. I am building a house that I plan to install a few pairs and im trying to pick the what I want now so I can buy them a few at a time. I like the idea of the axioms already having the box attached already...I guess that would allow them to have better bass. Just want to hear what yall think or if anyone has then in a NON HT setup.

I already have one of the sonos boxs hooked to some Algonquins on my back porch and they sounds pretty good. I have to turn up the volume pretty high to get the sound I want but im guessing thats because they are outside. The bass is pretty good but they are ported on the back and the way they are hung that port can reflect off the overhang of the back porch. I dont know if thats going to give me more bass than what ill get out of the in-walls installed.

Thanks!

Top
#395646 - 07/31/13 12:31 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1041
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Hi nolagt,
I am also a big Sonos user. I have a Sonos Connect in my HT feeding my HT amp through optical output. In my casual listening environment in the living room I have the Sonos Amp driving a small pair of Polk bookshelf speakers with a Polk sub - from my 1st entry level HT setup. Plus a Play 5 with plans for more zones in the future.

I think you have your worst case scenario already covered - using the Sonos to drive the pair of Algonquins outdoors. If you are happy with the volume you can achieve there then I think you'd be OK with the M3's indoors. The Algonquins are essentially outdoor M3's. Of course there are differences between the design as you noted, however I think your biggest difference for pure volume is outdoors vs indoors, so if your happy outside I you should be good inside.

Of course another option is get the Sonos Connect for much cheaper than the amp model and buy a cheap but more powerful 2 channel amp to drive the speakers.

Hope that helps.
_________________________
Dan
In/On Wall 500 w M2 Center Channel

Top
#395647 - 07/31/13 12:48 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
NOLAGT Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 189
Loc: Nawlins LA
I have also thought about the just a connect and getting a amp to feed them more power but I like the idea of not having too. I have a connect amp in my garage right now hooked to some b&w speakers...I forget the series but they are older 601s I think...but i also have it hooked to a 1k amp running 2 SVS cylinder subs so...yeah that room has some good bass lol. I had thought what about all the sonos connects in a closet, with long speaker wire runs to the speakers, and a axiom 8ch amp to feed them 125w. But then i think thats kinda costly...and for what gain going from 55 to 125? Also defeats the purpose of the wireless aspect of the sonos system having them all in one spot. So im trying to figure what to do now because once the house is built I wont be able to do much changing...holes in the ceilings...and its a 2 story so wire running would not be possible. I just wanted to get some feedback from some in-wall users...I dont know how the in-wall sound vs the algonquins until mine get in...and will they sound different not installed in a ceiling?

I guess worse case too I can do like you said and if theres a room I need more oomph in I can a larger 2ch amp. But can I use that with the connect amp )bypass its amp) or do I now need to get another sonos box as well.


Edited by NOLAGT (07/31/13 12:50 PM)

Top
#395648 - 07/31/13 01:12 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8293
Loc: Tacoma
I think it's a great idea. Report back!
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

Top
#395674 - 07/31/13 11:12 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
My only concern is that by installing the speakers in the ceiling most of your typical listening positions would be quite a big angle off axis from the sweet spot. Because of this, you might find that you need considerably more amp power than you think to achieve a 'nice full sound with some bass' as you put it. Actually the bass itself is normally more omni-directional so if anything you might get an overly boomy sound lacking in mid-range and treble presence.

Is it feasible to mount the M3 in-walls, well, actually in the walls instead of the ceilings?

Top
#395684 - 08/01/13 09:55 AM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
NOLAGT Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 189
Loc: Nawlins LA
I am not looking to have any kind of sweet spot per say. I have axiom m80s vp150 and qs8s for my HT where I do my serious watching/listening. These M3s are really just to have some music jamming through the house when I cook...getting ready in the mornings...having people over. So im just looking for some decent full range sound in the room. There is no option to mount them on the walls as far as im concerned...never gave that much thought. I always thought I want speakers in the ceilings...I dont know if I would like them on the side walls through out the house. The Sonos boxs have a simple bass treble adjustment so if its overly boomy I can tame that to an extent. I do like rap and dubstep so boomy might not be to bad laugh . I listen to a lot of different kinds of music...with my pandora mix lil wayn might pop up then the next might be harry conic jr lol. So I just want some good sound in the house. Also to note the ceilings in these areas are 10' if that helps them spread the sound out any. Good news is they are coming a day early...today!!

Does any one know if they will sound different once installed? Like with the back part of the box being in the attic not in the room. I plan to just demo them standing upright on top of some cabinets.


Edited by NOLAGT (08/01/13 09:57 AM)

Top
#395695 - 08/01/13 11:00 AM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
To get the best idea of how they will sound once installed you would ideally want to find some way to temporarily clamp them facing down to the floor as close as possible to the spots where they'll be installed.

Top
#395700 - 08/01/13 01:02 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8293
Loc: Tacoma
It's not enough for them to face one direction; another big factor that will influence the sound is the size of the speaker baffle i.e. the fact that the wall continuously surrounds the speaker. This impacts the dispersion. Free-air will sound different than in-wall, but because of the size of the plane that the drivers are on, not just because the direction they are facing or because the enclosure is in a wall.

I think you're worrying way too much about this. The M3's are wonderful speakers (as you already know). Unless there is something about the mounting mechanism that is unsuitable for horizontal hanging (instead of in a vertical wall), I don't see the problem.

Really, your requirements are (near) full-range speakers mounted in the ceiling. You probably have lots of options at your price point, but I doubt many of them are going to sound demonstrably "better" in that application that the M3 inwalls.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

Top
#395715 - 08/01/13 05:41 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
NOLAGT Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 189
Loc: Nawlins LA
I know im probably over thinking it lol. I just want to get it right since the hole for one inwall wont be the same for another...and I dont want to patch drywall in a new house.

Tomtuttle, The M3 inwalls are enclosed in a box so they dont reply on the wall cavity as there box. I dont know if I miss read your post...so the fact that the m3s are not installed shouldn't matter free air vs enclosure wise. I am just wondering how much sound resonates out the box that will be added to the room vs it install in a wall.

Good news is I have my hands on them right now and will play with them some tonight. First impression is the box is deeper than I expected!! That was a main reason for me wanting these...they are enclosed already and dont rely on the attic for there "box"

Top
#395718 - 08/01/13 06:59 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5908
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Just mount M3's in a checkerboard fashion about 3 feet apart. That should solve all dispersion problems.


Edited by CatBrat (08/01/13 07:00 PM)
Edit Reason: What?

Top
#395720 - 08/01/13 09:17 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
NOLAGT Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 189
Loc: Nawlins LA
There's only going to be two per room.

So I got them hooked up. Sound pretty good but the location I have to work with in my bathroom to test them high up is not ideal. They are next to each other tilted up at the ceiling. I need to figure a way to hang them from the ceiling.

I may end up getting a bigger amp for them in the bigger areas and outside. What power rating would make a good difference from 55w. Would 100 be enough to make it worth it...more?

Top
#395721 - 08/01/13 10:04 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10403
Mark, on the question about more amplifier power, your phrase "may end up" is right. You shouldn't assume at this time that what you now have won't be sufficient for your needs. If after experimenting you find that more is needed, 100 watts wouldn't likely make a significant enough difference. The difference in maximum loudness between 100 and 55 watts is only about 2.6dB(e.g., 102.6dB compared with 100dB on brief peaks). 220 watts would be 6dB louder and at least that much should be considered.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



Top
#395728 - 08/02/13 09:38 AM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
NOLAGT Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 189
Loc: Nawlins LA
Yeah thats what I was thinking...that 100 isnt going to make enough difference to be worth the cost and extra equipment. And its not so much peak loudness im after...dont get me wrong it gets loud...I just hate having to turn the volume up almost all the way. I also feel that can add in distortion and also that with more power I would get more mid bass punch at lower volumes. I think the 55w im getting will suffice in most cases...I may try more for the outdoor sections. I was going to do a A/B testing when I get some time with these m3s hooked to my denon receiver. I have the un powered sonos boxed hooked to that so I can run one m3 off the denon and one off the powered sonos box and can get one playing at 55w and one at 140w (I think)playing the exact same thing at the same time.

Top
#395734 - 08/02/13 01:13 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1041
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
That is actually one of the cool things you can do with Sonos - run a left from unit and a right from the other because of the way they sync with each other. I've made stereo pairs from the Play 5's for outdoor parties before. Not sure how good a critical comparison between L and R speakers would be, but what do I know?

And to answer your previous question - with the Sonos Amp unit there is no unamplified output except for the sub output.
_________________________
Dan
In/On Wall 500 w M2 Center Channel

Top
#395753 - 08/03/13 08:23 AM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
NOLAGT Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 189
Loc: Nawlins LA
Yea I really like how the sonos work that's why I decided to use them in my new house for whole home audio.

I don't know how good of a comparison it would be with a L and R but its easy to try. I might also go to my office where I have a drop down ceiling and can cut up a few tiles to install these into a ceiling and test. Might try a couple other in ceilings that way to see what I like.

And yea after asking I looked on one of my boxs and saw that...I'm sure I could sell them to cover the cost if an un-amped version if needed.

Top
#395765 - 08/03/13 10:10 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10403
Mark, it's unlikely that the comparison you mention would give meaningful info. First, keep in mind that a given speaker uses a certain amount of power at a given volume level, regardless of what the maximum power capacity of an amplifier is. For example, if at a certain(rather loud)level the M3s use 10 watts, that's how much is used with either a 55 watt or a 550 watt amplifier. So, neither more "mid bass punch" at lower volumes, or anything else, happens merely by connecting an amplifier with a higher max output.

The setting of the volume control shouldn't be a matter of concern in general, since the setting necessary varies with the strength of the incoming signal, and a high setting doesn't necessarily indicate that the amplifier is operating near maximum power output.

Also, simply connecting a 55 watt amplifier to one M3 and a 140 watt unit to another doesn't mean that they're "playing" at those numbers. As mentioned above, the speaker only takes what it needs. It would also be possible for the 55 watt unit to be louder at a specific control setting than the 140 watt unit if for example it had higher gain.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



Top
#395778 - 08/04/13 12:48 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: NOLAGT]
Hellcommute Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 148
Hey NOLAGT,

I have experience with both Sonos and structured media/whole house audio install. I would recommend you go for a connect amp as you are thinking for a single location and then play 3 or play 5s for the other areas. The control app is great and basically gives you the poor mans version of a whole house audio system without the install cost or multiple in wall zone controls. Multiple phones can be connected to the sytem at the same time without breaking it, and Iphone, Android and PC are supported. Get a NAS storage device and you are done.

If you do decide to go for a full blown whole house audio system I would not recommend installing in wall M3s as ceiling speakers. In ceiling speakers have a coaxial design that makes them less fussy about placement and also gives them a more even frequency dispersion. As you mentioned they are not intended for "sweet spot" listening and are meant to give a room filling sound without a "soundstage." In-ceiling speakers made by the likes of Leviton, pyle, niles audio, Yamaha, polk, etc have a standardized opening and can be interchanged if necessary. A 6.5 or 8 inch driver design is typically available. If you are worried about room filling sound don't bother. Even a 6.5 inch pair at moderate volumes will fill the space with even and pleasant sound if placed properly.

Typically, audiophile type concerns aren't addressed by an in ceiling situation. You know too much about good sound obviously and it is making you overthink this. smile

Of the 2 scenarios, Sonos or installed permanently, and given your process so far, Sonos is more for you IMO. You are obviously a tinkerer, as am I , and will forever be asking if you could have done better. Sonos is completely flexible. Placement, how many, how big, when, are all at your control. Then if you move, pack it up and take it with you. FWIW, a single play 5 will fill a 14W x 25L room with a 12ft vaulted ceiling with loud and full bodied, pleasing sound. It also wont scream "I'm a point source speaker located right here, look at me!!" laugh They don't distort, even when abused, and have full eq control for room boundary compensation. Can you tell I am a fan yet? So is the end user of this install.

Don't get me wrong whole house zone audio kicks ass. But it's a set it and forget it kind of thing. Do it right, once. Good luck! smile

Top
#395846 - 08/06/13 03:26 PM Re: M3 in-walls in the ceiling for whole home audio? [Re: Hellcommute]
NOLAGT Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 189
Loc: Nawlins LA
Originally Posted By: Hellcommute
Hey NOLAGT,

I have experience with both Sonos and structured media/whole house audio install. I would recommend you go for a connect amp as you are thinking for a single location and then play 3 or play 5s for the other areas. The control app is great and basically gives you the poor mans version of a whole house audio system without the install cost or multiple in wall zone controls. Multiple phones can be connected to the sytem at the same time without breaking it, and Iphone, Android and PC are supported. Get a NAS storage device and you are done.

If you do decide to go for a full blown whole house audio system I would not recommend installing in wall M3s as ceiling speakers. In ceiling speakers have a coaxial design that makes them less fussy about placement and also gives them a more even frequency dispersion. As you mentioned they are not intended for "sweet spot" listening and are meant to give a room filling sound without a "soundstage." In-ceiling speakers made by the likes of Leviton, pyle, niles audio, Yamaha, polk, etc have a standardized opening and can be interchanged if necessary. A 6.5 or 8 inch driver design is typically available. If you are worried about room filling sound don't bother. Even a 6.5 inch pair at moderate volumes will fill the space with even and pleasant sound if placed properly.

Typically, audiophile type concerns aren't addressed by an in ceiling situation. You know too much about good sound obviously and it is making you overthink this. smile

Of the 2 scenarios, Sonos or installed permanently, and given your process so far, Sonos is more for you IMO. You are obviously a tinkerer, as am I , and will forever be asking if you could have done better. Sonos is completely flexible. Placement, how many, how big, when, are all at your control. Then if you move, pack it up and take it with you. FWIW, a single play 5 will fill a 14W x 25L room with a 12ft vaulted ceiling with loud and full bodied, pleasing sound. It also wont scream "I'm a point source speaker located right here, look at me!!" laugh They don't distort, even when abused, and have full eq control for room boundary compensation. Can you tell I am a fan yet? So is the end user of this install.

Don't get me wrong whole house zone audio kicks ass. But it's a set it and forget it kind of thing. Do it right, once. Good luck! smile


Thanks for the info!! I am more of the sonos concept rather than a bunch of knobs and panels on the walls that I have to get up and fool with. I usually have my phone on me...and its so nice and easy to just click on a app and bam music. As for the play 5s I need something in the ceilings to get proper WAF lol and I would rather the installed look as well. As for the coax vs the M3s you are correct, im a over thinker and I am just worried about the fullness of the sound from the coax round speakers. Even with the m3s I find myself thinking....where can I install a small in wall sub too lol.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



Moderator:  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 

Home  |  Corporate Info  |  Products  |  Message Board  |  FAQs  |  Warranty  |  Site Map  |  Privacy Statement   |  Contact Us

©2014 Colquhoun Audio Laboratories Limited
All Rights Reserved.