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#396283 - 08/21/13 11:11 PM Re: How many Subs are enough ?? [Re: TroyD]
TroyD Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 302
well really one could say that 6 subs is better than 4 or hell 8 subs is better than four or six. one in each corner and one at each mid wall. heck really for this where do we stop. I only need so much volumn in the LF. where does it stop. looking at a price point and best LF if I were to buy 2 EP 500's at $2200 or four at $4400 or do I go to $10000 ?

I am pretty well sure that if I bought 4 EP500, I am not going to hear the difference with my ears in any room that is worthy of $6000 more
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#396284 - 08/21/13 11:14 PM Re: How many Subs are enough ?? [Re: TroyD]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Ah. So you are saying that the lower end still increases, but just not as much as the rest of the range. I was reading it as though you were saying that it was actually decreasing...
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M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#396286 - 08/21/13 11:31 PM Re: How many Subs are enough ?? [Re: nickbuol]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
No "rest of the range" consideration is involved. In some configurations the increase in total low frequency output isn't as much as would occur by simply increasing that output to correspond with the greater number of subs. For example, four subs at opposite wall midpoints certainly have more total low bass output than one in a corner, but the LF factor is lower.
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#396297 - 08/22/13 09:06 AM Re: How many Subs are enough ?? [Re: TroyD]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Agreed, however with one single sub played louder, you might get an increase at certain spots in the room (more LF), but you will get deeper nulls in others.

More subs are meant not to increase the impact or perceived "volume," but to reduce the nulls (and also tame some of the peaks) across a wider listening space. That would, in effect, make some things seem quieter or that there is less LF output.

So I guess it comes down to super bass in a couple of sweet spots, or more normalized bass over a larger listening area.

Either can be considered "right" depending on the end goal.

Oh, my "rest of range" was in regards to the increase above 40Hz but still in the subwoofer's domain of sound reproduction (under 90Hz). I didn't mean the rest of all audible hearing. Check out the video I linked before and go to about 5:37 into it. It has the graph and Ian talks about how much less the gain is between 19Hz and 35/40Hz vs. the larger gain above 40Hz and under 90Hz. So if we only care about 1 sweet spot for a peak, and only want 19-40Hz reproduced well (based off of the Axiom tests in the video, individual rooms would differ), then we are all set with just 1 sub and to most that is perfect. Heck, I have had a 1 subwoofer setup for 18 years and loved it. I am only a month or so into my 2 subwoofer setup and I am finding that I am enjoying it even more. Not because I feel more of the really deep bass, but because my room's sweet spot was NOT where I liked to sit when watching a movie (my back row had better sound, but my front row is perfect for me for the immersive visuals). I've effectively expanded the sweet spot to include my seat and improved the overall under 100 Hz freq. response at the same time by improving the "above 40Hz" top half of what the subwoofer is producing for me.

Part of my limitation is that I couldn't do a subwoofer crawl, well not really anyway... I had to put my sub up front behind my false wall. That was the plan, and I could only move the sub right and left along that wall. Dead center would have put it behind the VP180 and between the two I would have lost about 6 feet of the room length to get them in the proper location with the proper spacing. I didn't want to give up more than 2.5' of depth, so that meant putting the sub between the center channel and one of the front mains (right or left).
So I am dealing with a less than ideal audio setup based on asthetics. Then again, we all are working with less than ideal spaces. To make a perfect room for audio would be pretty ugly, in my opinion, to accomplish for a home theater.
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#396305 - 08/22/13 05:55 PM Re: How many Subs are enough ?? [Re: TroyD]
Nick B Offline
devotee

Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 496
Originally Posted By: troyd
well really one could say that 6 subs is better than 4 or hell 8 subs is better than four or six. one in each corner and one at each mid wall. heck really for this where do we stop. I only need so much volumn in the LF. where does it stop. looking at a price point and best LF if I were to buy 2 EP 500's at $2200 or four at $4400 or do I go to $10000 ?

I am pretty well sure that if I bought 4 EP500, I am not going to hear the difference with my ears in any room that is worthy of $6000 more


The biggest thing to get out of the article is that the biggest reason to get more subs is to have smaller seat to seat variation in frequency response from 80 Hz and down. It is relatively easy to set up one subwoofer so that one seat is great, as long as the sub is big enough for the room dimensions and we are talking about a rectangular sealed room. Just google search crawling for bass and you'll find several articles that go through the procedure. The difficulty comes when you would like to have that same good frequency response from 80Hz and down in each seat in a home theater setup with say 6 or 8 seats. The easiest way to do that is with either 2 or 4 subs AND seat to seat variation doesn't necessarily improve going with more than 4 subs. But the improvement in seat to seat variation with 4 subs is very similar to that of 2 well placed subs.

An added benefit of going with multiple subs is that you gain extra output in comparison to one sub, if they are placed well. Only people with enormous rooms would need to buy extra subs in order to get sufficient output at reasonable listening levels. After all, Axiom, Hsu, SVS, Rythmik all make subs that will be able to give good bass output in very large rooms.

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#396312 - 08/22/13 07:52 PM Re: How many Subs are enough ?? [Re: Nick B]
a401classic Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 1189
Loc: Alpharetta, GA
Originally Posted By: Nick B

An added benefit of going with multiple subs is that you gain extra output in comparison to one sub, if they are placed well. Only people with enormous rooms would need to buy extra subs in order to get sufficient output at reasonable listening levels. After all, Axiom, Hsu, SVS, Rythmik all make subs that will be able to give good bass output in very large rooms.


It's not so much the output level; One EP500 set at 5:30 or 6:00 (v2) was enough to rattle pictures on the wall and make a closet door behave like someone was trying to get in (19' x 21' x 8'). It's about balancing out the nodes in the rest of the room - that's what the extra subs get you.
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#396314 - 08/22/13 08:48 PM Re: How many Subs are enough ?? [Re: TroyD]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Exactly. My SVS was more than plenty for my 14'x24'x8' room. My "SVS Clone" just makes more seats sound good.
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M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#396315 - 08/22/13 09:10 PM Re: How many Subs are enough ?? [Re: nickbuol]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10900
Loc: Central NH
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
makes more seats sound good.

Thump in the Rump?
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#396323 - 08/22/13 11:35 PM Re: How many Subs are enough ?? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
makes more seats sound good.

Thump in the Rump?


Nope, more "shake" in the rump (especially at 0:40 in):

Shake Your Rump!
_________________________
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M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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