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#396467 - 08/26/13 08:35 PM Re: M60's Surprisingly Out of Phase! [Re: leefarber]
leefarber Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 16
So here's a brief update: I strapped the two sets of binding posts together on both speakers so they are no longer bi-wired. And the problem persists: one of the speakers is out of phase relative to the other. The only way that these speakers pass the FOUR different polarity tests I put them through is if one of the speakers has their polarities reversed (it doesn't matter which one).

Brent had me only connect one of the speakers at a time and do the tests on each speaker. When I did that, there was no difference in the test tones between in-phase and out-of-phase. Brent took this to mean there couldn't be a problem with either speaker, but now that I think about it, I have to disagree, since the two speakers are out of phase RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER. Testing one at a time would be inconclusive.

It seems the only thing left to do it grab another pair of speakers (I have an old pair of m22's in storage) and see if the problem persists. If it does, then the problem must be with the amplifier. If it doesn't, then one of my M60's must be wired incorrectly.

I'll report back soon. In the meantime, I'd welcome any thoughts or suggestions. Thanks!


Edited by leefarber (08/26/13 08:36 PM)

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#396468 - 08/26/13 08:38 PM Re: M60's Surprisingly Out of Phase! [Re: leefarber]
leefarber Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 16
And I should add that since reversing the polarities on one of the M60s, the difference is incredible. Bass is tight, sound is more directional and clear. It's night and day.

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#396469 - 08/26/13 08:41 PM Re: M60's Surprisingly Out of Phase! [Re: leefarber]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13336
Loc: Iowa
that would be a good test, you could also try this simple test with a 9volt battery to see which direction the woofers travel, that will tell you if they are in or out of phase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR2sXTVtLMc
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#396473 - 08/26/13 10:00 PM Re: M60's Surprisingly Out of Phase! [Re: leefarber]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Lee, if each individual speaker is connected internally with the correct polarity, then taken together they'll be in phase with each other. If the test you ran showed correct polarity in each that should answer the question. The battery test Randy linked(1.5 volt can also be used, although cone movement is less)can double check this. Also, using the M22s is yet another test.

If it appears that the amplifier is the culprit, connect different channels to see if removing one of them(possibly wired internally with reverse polarity)from the circuit also removes the phase problem.
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#396474 - 08/26/13 10:33 PM Re: M60's Surprisingly Out of Phase! [Re: leefarber]
leefarber Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 16
Thanks guys. I've hooked up the m22's and had the same result! Plus, I did the battery test, and everything checked out. I can now verify with 100% certainty that it is NOT the speakers.

I never had this problem with the amplifier before. The only thing that has changed is that I replaced the RCA interconnects between Pre/Pro and Amp with balanced XLRs. Could they be the culprit? I can't imagine there's a way a single XLR cable could invert polarity.

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#396475 - 08/26/13 11:29 PM Re: M60's Surprisingly Out of Phase! [Re: leefarber]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
If someone built the XLR wrong, it could be the cause. Do you have a volt meter with continuity checking? Test the pins end to end, and see if any don't match up.
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#396476 - 08/26/13 11:41 PM Re: M60's Surprisingly Out of Phase! [Re: leefarber]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Possible. Keep in mind that balanced XLR connections have two central conductors rather than the one in a coaxial cable. They work by sending out two signals, with one inverted 180 degrees in polarity, which are then in effect "re-inverted" in a balanced receiving unit(i.e., the amplifier). It's unlikely this this is the basis for the problem if you didn't notice a deterioration when you first used the XLRs, but in any case try it with the coaxials back in.
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#396479 - 08/27/13 12:31 AM Re: M60's Surprisingly Out of Phase! [Re: leefarber]
leefarber Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 16
If I'm being honest, I think there was a deterioration when I switched to XLR from RCA, but I was trying to convince myself the XLRs were better! I'll try switching back to RCAs and see if that does the trick.

I got the XLRs from Blue Jeans cable, so I know they're well-made. Could it have something to do with the fact that my Sunfire amp is from 2000 and the Marantz Pre/Pro is from 2012? I found this thread which seems to pose the same question:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?30942-XLR-Polarity

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#396481 - 08/27/13 01:01 AM Re: M60's Surprisingly Out of Phase! [Re: leefarber]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8290
Loc: Tacoma
Fascinating story! Thank you for sharing this journey.
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#396482 - 08/27/13 01:07 AM Re: M60's Surprisingly Out of Phase! [Re: leefarber]
leefarber Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 16
I also found this site:

http://www.clarkwire.com/PinOutXLRBalanced.htm

Which says specifically, "Some manufacturers, especially in vintage equipment, do not follow this standard and instead reverse the polarity of pin 2 and 3."

But by glancing at the Sunfire manual, it doesn't appear as if the polarity is reversed. Can someone verify that for me? It's online here:

http://www.sunfire.com/manuals/Cinema%20...er%20Manual.pdf

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