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#402465 - 04/06/14 02:12 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
Serenity_Now Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 147
Loc: PEI, Canada
The pic of your setup shows comprimises must be made in a living situation. Yes, ideally, we would all have a replica of the dolby setup parameters.... but this is often not only impractical, but would deter from more important things--like functionality and enjoyability of the space. smile

Please remember, there are a lot of very talented and intelligent people here. Anyone can read the "rules" of audio setup online. Many here have spent a lot of time employing real world testing in their rooms with the gear they have. I would take their advice and personal experience as being as, if not more, valuable than any generalized rule published by Dolby etc.

If you have been around audio for 20 yrs, you can appreciate that the theory of audio reproduction, including Dolby parameters, is ever evolving with the current tech and enthusiast\client\industry feedback.

Once you add in the science of acoustics in individual rooms, it is apparent that all encompassing "rules" aren't applicable to every installation anyway. They are guidelines.
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#402469 - 04/06/14 02:48 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
THX

Surround Sound Speaker Set Up

"Surround Left & Right Speakers (SL & SR): Place the SL & SR speakers between 90° to 110° to each side and 2 feet or higher above the listener. The SL & SR speakers recreate the enveloping sound and intense special effects that you experience in the cinema."

"Great sound can really bring out the power of high definition video. And speaker placement is essential to experiencing the true impact of movies, music and games."

Source: http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/


Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/06/14 03:14 PM)
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#402470 - 04/06/14 02:52 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: Serenity_Now]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
Were talking about Surround here...most everyone can easily place their Surrounds properly 2'-3' Feet above their listening positions.

Also since you don't know how far away I sit from my TV you have no idea what my proper L & R Channel separation for my system should be so don't assume.

I find it curious that a dedicated forum for the Quadrapole QS8's would have people who have bought the perfect Diffused Surround Sound Speakers and yet would argue against proper placement...

Your argument that nothings perfect acoustically is correct, however to further miss-align proper Sound Reproduction by changing the standards in which they were Recorded and Mixed does not improve the accuracy to which your trying to achieve.

If you use Direct Radiating Surround Speakers at Ear Level it will be incorrect...those are the hard FACTS not my opinion. To say otherwise is to say that the Sound Engineers across the world and at
Dobly, DTS & THX are all wrong.

Feel free to contact them directly if you feel they are wrong, as they give recommendations based on Acoustical Science and Recording/Mixing Standards not personal opinions.


Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/06/14 03:35 PM)
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#402475 - 04/06/14 04:03 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
exlabdriver Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 999
The engineers who wrote the rules obviously never observed me watch a movie in my HT room. I normally start sitting in the 'sweet spot' on my couch then perhaps move over some, sometimes lay down on 1 end of my couch then maybe flip over to the other end, wake up & sit in the center again, ha! This behavior kinda screws up the ideal theoretical sound field both front & rear so it is often lost on me.

Due to the odd shape of my room behind my listening area, my QS8 placement is absolutely horrid & so far from ideal that an engineer would give up in disgust. Since I have no choice, I have to live with this situation.

Having said all of that, the unique dispersion characteristics of the QS series makes this condition easy to live with in the real world. After Audyessy has set the proper levels & Xover (90 to 100 Hz), the overall effect is very enjoyable - perhaps not accurate but enjoyable nonetheless.

BTW, from what I've seen, the -3Db rating is pretty standard throughout the industry & Paradigm's use -2Db is indeed commendable; however, interestingly they don't use any of those types of ratings for their subs like Axiom & most other sub manufacturers do even though I'm sure that they are stellar performers that reach down really low...

TAM

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#402476 - 04/06/14 04:10 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: exlabdriver]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
Originally Posted By: exlabdriver
The engineers who wrote the rules obviously never observed me watch a movie in my HT room. I normally start sitting in the 'sweet spot' on my couch then perhaps move over some, sometimes lay down on 1 end of my couch then maybe flip over to the other end, wake up & sit in the center again, ha! This behavior kinda screws up the ideal theoretical sound field both front & rear so it is often lost on me.

Due to the odd shape of my room behind my listening area, my QS8 placement is absolutely horrid & so far from ideal that an engineer would give up in disgust. Since I have no choice, I have to live with this situation.

Having said all of that, the unique dispersion characteristics of the QS series makes this condition easy to live with in the real world. After Audyessy has set the proper levels & Xover (90 to 100 Hz), the overall effect is very enjoyable - perhaps not accurate but enjoyable nonetheless.

TAM


So are you telling us that you can't place your QS8's 2'-3' Feet above your listening position because you live with hobbits and have a really low ceiling?

Honestly your arguing that because you stand on your head while watching movies that somehow
Dolby, DTS & THX Standards aren't working well for you....hmmm perhaps we should start with the basics such as Posture. lol

This discussion has just turned to the retarded because theirs always an excuse to be made and Strawman Argument to be had. However this is a discussion towards using the QS8's as Surrounds. And as such we discuss Placement, if you can't do it then just accept that what your then doing is changing the accuracy of the content and your sound will suffer accordingly. However I highly doubt that anyone can't raise their Surrounds to a proper height which is typically in the 5'-6' feet above the floor or (2'-3' above your ears). Just how small is your room? j/k

But for fun why don't we try and have a Serious Discussion instead of trying to argue for arguments sake. If your viewing environments are that bad to begin with and your trying to build a nice Home Theater System then perhaps you should spend some money on a proper room first instead of buying speakers. Because you listen to your Room just as much as you listen to your Speakers. Audyessy and the like, can't fix your room....just put a band-aid on it.



Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/06/14 04:46 PM)
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#402477 - 04/06/14 04:42 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1181
Loc: Whitehorse YT
No need to get into a heated debate. The average person with an average room should certainly use the suggested surround speaker placement as a guideline / starting point. This is after all a guideline since only one person can sit in the so called sweetspot. I live in a rental house and putting too many holes in the wall is never a good thing. I use QS 4s in my living room and they placed according to suggestions made to me by members of this board and are now roughly where Dolby recommends. I believe the main point is that the speakers do not draw attention to themselves during the movie. Since every room is acoustically different and some dedicated viewing spaces have room treatments repositions speakers may enhance the listening experience. I would say that if a person was to build a room to exacting specification set out by dolby and used the exact equipment dolby specified then we could say it is a hard and fast rule. The only real right way is the way it sounds best to me. On paper my room for instance is too narrow/small for the
size of my fronts but what matters is it sounds great too me. It was mentioned that AlaskanAV's speaker placement was not optimal and I would tend to agree but given the constraints he has with doorways etc you make do with what you have and again he is happy and that's what counts. I myself don't take offence to constructive criticism since I am no AV expert though i have been involved in audio for over 35yrs.

Nick , should you ever get around to testing a set of QS 8s in you theater I would be interested to hear your thoughts. I have contemplate adding rear surrounds by repurposing my QS 4's and adding 8's to the side surrounds.

Just my random thoughts cool
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#402479 - 04/06/14 04:43 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11162
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Chill.
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#402480 - 04/06/14 04:52 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
Socketman are you also having trouble placing your Surround Speakers at proper height because of room constraints?

Obviously these are the recommendations because they are Scientific Acoustical Facts that have been Engineered into the different Audio Formats. So whenever you have to alter or change these parameters you will be degrading what could be, and yes we all make some sacrifices unless were lucky enough to have built our room from scratch.

My simple point is this, Can you place your Surrounds 2'-3'feet above your listening position?
If so congratulations you just improved the dispersion of your Surround Sound Field.

These are the Fundamentals...your welcome to put the speakers upside down and backwards to if you like, but this is a discussion about proper speaker placement.
http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/


Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/06/14 05:02 PM)
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#402481 - 04/06/14 05:14 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1181
Loc: Whitehorse YT
According to your link it states 2 feet or higher, that sounds pretty general to me and is merely a starting point/guideline. Different surround speakers will require different placement ie dipole ,direct etc. Dolby has entirely different suggestions. If that is what works in your room that is super but I am not about to place my speakers where they don't sound as good just because I am told that is where they have to be.
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#402482 - 04/06/14 05:26 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
So are you saying that you Feel that your QS8's sound better to you when positioned lower to your ears because of your ignorance of how proper Surround Sound should be reproduced?

You do know that you can turn up the volume on speakers placed further from your ears right...

So in what world does placing your speakers incorrectly give a more positive outcome, can you give me an example of your improper placement so I can see what your doing wrong?

This reminds me a lot of proper Color Reproduction with HDTV's because most people watch sets that don't display tones correctly and when you give them a Calibrated display some people still like the prior. This is due to the Fact that they are accustomed to improper settings, much like what your referring to and trying to justify how their older tv looks more accurate, however this is just simple ignorance.

Dolby specifically states Surrounds to be placed 2'-3'Feet above the listener as does MK Loudspeakers which were the Standard for the Recording Studio's mixing sound...perhaps you should do more research. But i'm only stating the Facts here.

Also your incorrect because ALL surround speakers regardless of type ie Direct or Dispersed are required to be placed higher than the front soundstage, in no example shall they ever be Properly Placed at ear height.
The only exception to that rule would be SACD & DVD-Audio
but were discussing Movie Surround so that doesn't apply here.



Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/06/14 05:47 PM)
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