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#402483 - 04/06/14 05:45 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
Socketman Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1204
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Really , now im ignorant. Nice , come in and start casting aspersions. Go AWAY


Edited by Socketman (04/06/14 05:49 PM)
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#402484 - 04/06/14 06:22 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
If you can't handle the Facts then i'm afraid your in the wrong place.

I'm still waiting to hear how improper speaker placement of your surrounds is beneficial....
Tell us how you made-up your surround placements so we can see why your not following the Fundamentals. As described even by the Axiom professionals.

Don't take offense to Facts, as they were meant to educate your ignorance,
not insult it by any way.

I'm ignorant of Rocket Science, this doesn't make me stupid.
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge)

"Those that change the meaning of words confuse the mind."

ps: If you want to make a personal comment then I encourage you to Private Message me, thanks.


Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/06/14 07:00 PM)
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The Teacher is in: Trust but Verify

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#402485 - 04/06/14 07:22 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 260
Loc: PEI, Canada
Take a log off the fire. smile

Everyone here is being exceedingly nice. Your tone is quickly becoming unfriendly.

No one disagrees with you, or Dolby etc. Everyone here seems to like their setup as is, and it meets their specific requirements based on real life limitations.

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#402486 - 04/06/14 07:37 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1035
Well, well, we haven't seen this in a while here.

Anyway, check out the pics (now a bit dated) of my HT especially Pic #5:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/home-theater-pictures/?album=1&gallery=143

My main listening seat is the couch on the right directly facing the screen that is behind the camera & to the left. Note where the QSs are on the wall - a less than ideal configuration but that's what I have to work with. There is no rebuilding my house to accommodate a new HT. I enjoy it just the way that it is largely because the omni-directional characteristics of the QSs minimize the anomalies...

TAM

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#402487 - 04/06/14 08:28 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 260
Loc: PEI, Canada
Beautiful floors Tom.

Steve Winwood on the tube?

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#402488 - 04/06/14 08:48 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4514
Loc: Marion, IA
Wow. This topic has EXPLODED... Going back to my last post, when I mentioned that you were new to this forum, AlaskanAVGuy, I simply meant that You don't know *me*. You don't know that I like to have conversations or debates about things, but that I never mean anything personal by it. I was in no way saying that you were, in any way, a "newbie" to home AV. Not that I didn't know if you were or were not, but I was talking about me..


However, you keep saying "FACTS" and so forth. Let me give you this "fact" since it comes straight from Dolby's web site:
Here is the direct document link first:

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Consumer/Dolby_HomeTheaterSetupGuide_7.1.pdf

You can get there by going here:
Dolby Speaker Setup

Click on the 7.1 "button" since we are talking rear surrounds.

Pick your distance to your screen and it gives diagrams of what we have been talking about for a while...

On the screen with the diagrams, on the left you can download the guide (or use the first link that I posted).

On page 2, it states:

Originally Posted By: Dolby
Your Environment
An Ongoing Experiment

There is no objectively “perfect” setup. All speakers, no matter how good, are bound by the laws of physics. What you can do is put them in the best locations to take maximum advantage of their capabilities, both individually and within the total system. Remember that the best sound is what sounds best to you. It’s your system. If you’ve set it up and it sounds great, you may not need to read any further.


They openly admit that nothing is perfect. Heck, mixing studios are rarely anything like a movie theater, home theater, or living room.

There are general guidelines, but guidelines are not "facts." There are WAY to many variables. Original source, mixing technician's preferences, mixing studio, sampling theater (where the director gets to hear it for generally the first time), speakers used and their designs and limitations, speaker configuration, room acoustics (oh my, this one is HUGE), the hearing capabilities of the listener, so and and so forth.


Here is an analogy.
FACT: Earlier this year the Hennessey Venom GT Becomes World's Fastest Production Car at 270.49 MPH.

Guideline: Just because it IS a fact that the car can go that fast, doesn't mean that it will work for everyone. Most people would freak out at 120MPH and day that this is MORE than good enough, and attempting to go faster would just not be worth the risks (if you have a perfectly smooth track, proper training on how to drive, a night super long straight away, the driver wasn't too heavy, etc). Therein lies the "variables" mentioned previously.

Just because it can go that fast since Hennessey designed it for that purpose of speed, does not mean that everyone should have one and everyone drives on super long straightaways with no other traffic or stop lights and the roads are perfectly smooth, and they have proper training on how to drive it...

So I would say that the guidelines from Dolby, THX, DTS, and so forth are just that. A commonly referenced *starting point* for what sounds good. That is why they give a range of degrees for placement and not "exactly 11.5 degrees to the rear of the front seating position".

Need another example? The Dolby, THX, and DTS "facts" as they have been called usually show a single subwoofer somewhere up front to the right or left of center. When they show 2 subs, they put one to the left and one to the right of the center channel again. THX does have at least 1 document floating around out there with the subwoofer directly under the center channel.

So that must be the "facts" about sub placement... That it should be exactly as shown in the picture. Well, sorry, but no.
Room modes go nuts, and any single subwoofer install really needs a "subwoofer crawl" to find the ideal placement. Add a second sub, and you can start doing some mathematical calculations and it shows that the middle of the front wall and middle of the rear wall, or the middle of the side walls is best, and yet most of the layout diagrams directly from Dolby, THX and DTS do not reflect this. They put them both up front. (Oh, and 4 subs, one placed in the middle of each of the 4 walls is the best placement location to eliminate the peaks and nulls from the modes of the room, but good luck finding that out on one of their documents). Maybe it is out there, but finding one in general circulation from one of them is next to impossible.

So, stick around and stay a while. Just be aware that this isn't AVS. People here don't go around pissing on other people trying to prove something like what happens over there so much.

I am sure that I will get some negative response. That's fine... I think that this thread has gone down a dark tunnel and really serving little purpose (my post included) so I will try to just stay away. I've got better things to talk about than coming in here just to hear that someone knows a bunch of "facts". crazy
_________________________
http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#402491 - 04/06/14 10:00 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1035
Serenity:

Yup, Steve Winwood with Eric Clapton in 'Live from Madison Square Gardens'. Fabulous concert (really well recorded) where Eric plays 'Voodoo Chile' for the very first time & boy did he do it justice. A must buy for those who like these guys.

The floors are actually a very classy & realistic looking laminate flooring (Armstrong Grand Illusions, dark cherry I believe) that I had to use because I'm on a concrete slab. Hardwood (that we wanted) would have required much more effort & money but the laminate works well there.

I must update my pics as now I have a new stand, VP160 CC & 55" Sony TV...

TAM

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#402492 - 04/06/14 10:24 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: nickbuol]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
Those comments are meant for people who don't know the difference between Bose speakers and Axioms.

Here's what was stated in the next paragraph:

"However, if you’re not hearing any bass, or there’s no sense of spaciousness and depth, or something seems to be missing, some fine-tuning may be in order. Even small adjustments
in placement can have clearly audible effects
."
and it continues for another 23 paragraphs on how to set-up your home theater.

In other words Speaker Placement Matters....hmmm go figure
Some people would even argue that the sky isn't blue.

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Consumer/Dolby_HomeTheaterSetupGuide_7.1.pdf

Here's what the experts say over at THX:

"Sound is fifty percent of the entertainment experience. Great sound can really bring out the power of high definition video. And speaker placement is essential to experiencing the true impact of movies, music and games."

http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/

So if speaker placement doesnt matter according to some then why even put surrounds in the back at all...instead lets put them up front. Obviously because their Mixed for different locations. It's true you have a lot more fudge room when you use Quadrapoles compared to Direct Radiating speakers or when you raise them higher than the Front Sound Stage.
But they still need to follow the guidelines as stated by industry professionals. And if you want the most you will follow them precisely. Surround speaker height placement is one of the most effective and easiest of all methods which is why i'm trying to educate the people who are ignorant to this Fact. Don't be a critic when all i'm trying to do is help inform people.

Now if you've got something constructive to add then please enlighten us all instead of Trolling my comments.


Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/06/14 10:51 PM)
_________________________
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#402494 - 04/06/14 11:18 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: blastermaster]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4514
Loc: Marion, IA
FYI for those of you here that know me, I just received a "less than friendly" PM from this guy. I say in my 2nd response that I welcome debate as we can hopefully all share some learning and understanding, but some people resort to calling people (me) a troll for disagreeing with them because of how they are going about things, send me insulting PMs telling me that I am ignorant and that I am wasting people's time with talk about subwoofer placement and so forth. How did we get to this point?

Whatever.

I use QS8s for my rear surround (as mentioned in my first few responses in this thread) and really like it.

Every post has mentioned surround speaker placement for a "7.1" setup as was the original question, and I just bring up some analogy and the example that the diagrams from the people that "created all of the 'facts'" aren't all accurate and have a level of variance, but what do I know... I am just ignorant.

Moving on until someone is willing to have conversation and can debate without insults. Then again, I have no "FACTS" so I am sure that it is a waste of their time to "feed a troll."
_________________________
http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#402495 - 04/06/14 11:23 PM Re: QS8s as Rear Surrounds? [Re: Socketman]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4514
Loc: Marion, IA
Originally Posted By: Socketman
Really , now im ignorant. Nice , come in and start casting aspersions. Go AWAY


Hey, can I join your club? I was told that I was ignorant in a PM. Time to change my avatar to reflect my "true nature." For too long I've been secretly impersonating a "home theater enthusiast" with my other one.
_________________________
http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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