Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Dual/triple SUb Choice

Ok, love to hear from Andrew or Ian on this, however there are quite a few very knowledgeable forum users too.

The room is 11.5 x 18.5 x 7.5
My M80 ar spaced 1'6" from the sides 9" from the front wall and 8.5' apart.
I sit 10ft away dead centre.

If you had $4000 - $5000 budget for subs what would be the best value.

4 - EP350
3 - EP500
2 - EP500 Front and a EP800 Horizontal rear
2 - EP800 one front one rear horizontal
2 - EP500 Front 2 - EP350 Rear

3 - SVS PB12 Plus
2 - SVS PB13 Ultras'

just to mix it up abit

Troy, of the specific choices you list, and if you're willing to go with a $5,000 budget, I'd choose the two EP800s. However, I'd add another suggestion for that budget area: four EP500s, in a four corner arrangement.

I'd start with 2 EP500s and see how you like it.

Sorry I can't help with value as value is wholly in the eye of the beholder. I get chastised all the time on other sites for owning 2 X EP400s where all the cheap bastards out there argue that there are much better values.

I purchased one EP400 & after some time enjoying it, I found that I liked it so much that I ordered a second one. It is the brand & model that I wanted for my room & given their stellar musical performance, are worth absolutely every penny to me...

TAM

Like JohnK, my first instinct would be two EP800s. Lowest bass coupled with decent smoothing.

Charles, your FIRST instinct would be at least 4 EP800's.

This is actually going to be a problem in my new space, now that my refrigerator is going where one of my subwoofers was going to go.I wonder how I'll be sorting this one out.

Store beer in your sub?

The trapezoidal shape means more beer up front for easier access.

And you can more easily hide the GOOD beer in the back where friends family can't find it.

This would be funnier if CV drank.

Charles, I will help you with surplus.

When one begins to actually consider giving up your refrigerator for a fourth sub-woofer, it's time for a face-to-face with you-know-who in Fredericksburg.

CV, I'm in a lot of houses---A LOT. (I know it's hard to believe, but they actually LET me in.) I have never been in a kitchen when the client pointed to the fridge and said, "Oh, that's where the sub' going to go."

I often put a sub 'sandwich' in my fridge.

OK, lame. Need coffee.

Well I am back, now as Troyd_2 as I cannot log onto the TroyD account anymore don't know why. Same as my Axiom_man account. Passwords keep changing on me and even if I request new password it will not. It is like my account is locked out.
This been happening every month or month an a half. I think they got sick of resetting my account. So now I have to create another new account.

SO, anyways, as for 4 EP800 not going to happen. As for 4 EP500 probably not going to happen. Reason is my room size it is only 11.5" w and 21'L and that be so over kill, and the fact it is approaching $7000.
Which is why I am looking at 2 EP500 and either 2 EP350 for the rear.
the other thing is with Axiom increasing the prices, which it is what it is, but the EP500 cost identical to the SVS 12 Plus including the shipping. Like I said I love the speakers and they were always exceptional value and under the price of others.

SO, am now looking at the SVS plus as I hear a lot of good things about it and at the same price .....

I really like the looks of the new EP500.

Yeh, and the foot print is smaller too, that's a bonus.
Currently I have a Sub up front and on in the right rear.

They are not great subs, but do the trick right now.

I thinking maybe I can go with 2 - EP500 up front and two - EP350 in the rear. I think that will put me under the price

2 500's should be fairly impressive.

In that size of room, I'm sure you wouldn't need more than two subs like the EP500. They should easily fill that space with power to spare.

room is 12 x 21 x 7.5 and I need two or more. Just so much better

Counter perspective,

2x SB13-ultra. My money anyway. Or if gluttonous, 2x PB13-Ultra. But your room would be more than serviced by sealed units. Svs owns the online sub market. By a long shot.

I prefer sealed units by a mile, whichever way you decide. Waaaaay better.

Your room is not that big. Even 4 SB-2000s would be insane.

Another counter perspective,

If you have any woodworking skills and the time to do it I would strongly consider going DIY for the subs. Then you can design them the size and shape you want and finish with the material of your choice for less than it costs to buy premade. My room is almost the same dimensions as yours, 11.5ft x 21ft x 8ft, and two Dayton Ultimax 15" subs in the same ported box under my screen works beautifully for me. Total spent for subs, amp, and building materials was only about $800.

I think I will be going with the SVS Plus. They are now $300 cheaper shipping included. Last year they were almost$400 more expensive.

I perfer an unsealed sub for movies anyways. Sealed I like for music, however, if I decide to upgrade someday to the M100 I won't need a sub for music and the Anthem has that option for music playing to cut out the LFE.

That's really good...

My vote, provided you have the skills and tools, would be the DIY'er route, if the polls are still open. There's both ready-to-assemble kits or fully diy build-ups with lots of info floating around online for assistance.

Just received my ep500 v4 and did the room correction thing with my anthem, here are my first impressions...

the ep500 replaces a ksw-15 down-firing sub 15'' 800w (made trough 1998 - 2003) I've had since year 2000

my impressions between the two (room size 12.5 x 21.5 x 7.5)

The ksw-15 rumbled a lot and shook the hole house, dishes were shaking, you could feel the bass was strong but lacked the musical punch or snap, it felt muddy and seem to lack a lot of info on the bass spectrum compared to the ep500. With the ksw-15 with a movie you could feel the explosions but with concerts it wasn't all that pleasurable.

The ep500 v4 didn't shake the house, had the volume on the sub 70% up, it seemed anemic compared to the ksw-15, it felt very precise in a concert dvd's but a tad weak with action movies I expected a little more from this sub, best description it's missing that over powering bass effect. I'm debating if I should return it, perhaps give it a few more days and play with settings, debating if I should get the svs 13 ultra or a second ep500

After playing around with rear settings of the sub and revisiting most of the titles with mass amount of bass either music or movie I have noticed that the only thing missing with this sub is that it just doesn't go low enough (for my taste) guess I'm suffering from 15'' sub withdrawal, I'm curious in the audio differences with the ep500 and the ep800, can anyone help?

If you take a look at the specs, the EP500 takes the sound nose dive around the 20hz, compared to the EP500 that is pretty good to the 14-15hz before it takes the fall off.

it's those lower hz numbers that are more visceral rather than audible. You want to feel the explosions not hear them.

Never having a bigger sub, I'm loving my EP500 V4. It provides what seems like just enough bass for movies and music, that is with the volume knob at approx 30%. I'm not caring for any rattling the dishes effects. I've recently moved up from an EP350 V3. EP500 V4 is much better.

Sounds to me like you've got something wrong there. Hook an audio source directly up to the sub and see if it knocks you over (turn it down below 70% first!). Me, I suspect some kind of auto calibration jiggery pokery. You could also try turning off the auto-cal/room calibration stuff and see if it sounds different.

70% volume in that sized room????!! Something's screwed up. I can't get past 25% volume in a 12 X 18 room with on V4 500.

it's not so much the volume, I belive it has more to do that I feel this sub goes low enough in movies, I had a ported sub before perhaps that is the difference... or perhaps it's the ARC calibration

I would second the notion about the ARC calibration having a significant affect on the outcome. That volume setting on the sub is just too high, it doesn't make much sense. I would be curious what the calibration did to the internal sub volume within the AVR itself along with the "phase" setting. It could also be the calibration set the phase backwards which can affect both volume and the ability to hear the lowest frequencies. What volume did you have the sub itself set at just prior to calibration? Is the EP500 in the same location as your previous sub? If you can remove the calibration set-up from the picture here, see what happens to the sub volume after that.

Frankly, I have never been a fan of doing a calibration with subs since in order to provide a flat setting for the room, it tends to significantly roll off the lowest frequencies. Ian did a video on this back some time ago where he indicated any meters or calibration done below 50HZ is just not very accurate and I would tend to agree.

One valid reason why I love the Pioneer MCACC so much. It doesn't fiddle with the bottom end.

Snicker.

I agree as well. My prepro did some funky things with my subs too when I tried using the auto cal with subs connected.

IMO, get a calibration mic and use REW to manually cal the subs after using your auto cal software for other speakers if your AVR allows manual entries.

I don't have much faith in the built in sub eq , though I have not tried Audyssey X32. In my bedroom system I have 2 eights and I added a DSpeaker Anti mode and the difference is night and day, best 350 I spent in a long time. I measured with REW before and after and it trimmed a few peaks but it really tightened up the bass. I have a Umik-1 microphone coming and will be adding a mini dsp for my main system . As for the OP I would definitely look and see how much the ARC trimmed the bass signal going to the sub. Best to turn the sub fairly low when calibrating that way you can always make it a little hotter if you so desire.

Richard

I have had great luck with Audyssey. No funny business with the sub. Only thing it does that I undo is call my mains and center large.

thanks for all the valuable input everyone, I will try a few more things over the weekend before returning the little guy and probably end up getting the pb13 ultra,

Funniest post of the year.

Your're right cv, I didn't proof read it before I posted it not to mention I hadn't had the morning dose of caffeine yet , what I meant was I'm going to try a last calibration session with ARC, talked the anthem people and they gave me a few new ideas in setting up the ARC. But using my HT mainly for movies I think I would be better served with a ported sub,

I don't get your take on the ported verse sealed... I'm enjoying the tightness the V4's have over the V2's. LFE is more of a "whoop" verse "whooshhhh". I'm liking it, much mo' betta...

How's that for an audiophile review?

Most helpful post of the year.

Well, I managed to talk 'The Boss' into the second EP800 in the Refurb Store. Two will integrate into my room much better.

Looks like my venerable 10" Velos will be put out to pasture...

TAM

You guys are really making me envious lately!

I thought matt was taking the other one . will they match??

Matt gave them both up in the end - great for me!

They do match in Rosewood...

TAM

Back home from Penticton now.

I actually ordered the second 800 from my BB Playbook while sitting on my brother's porch (while they were at work) using his WIFI signal as there is none at my Mom's place.

The neighbours must have wondered who the strange dude was hanging around there, ha!...

TAM

Well that is a lot of bass, hope your neighbors are tolerant.
I see a couple of other pieces in rosewood, you should grab those too. How was the weather in Penticton, we used to go there and Naramatta when I was a kid. The folks would buy fruit in Keremeos on the way back for canning etc. Ahhh the good ol days. I love the Okanagan, problem is so does everyone else.

Penticton was hot & dusty for the whole week - my car showed that it was 33C on Thurs afternoon.

I'm thinking of eventually 'Trading Up' from my standard M22V3s to a couple of rosewood V4s; however, 'The Boss' doesn't know yet, ha!

I've been secretly wanting to get a 'quality' sub or two that reached way down low for some time so I jumped at this chance...

TAM

Meh, that's a middlin' temperature for Penticton in the summer. I remember some days up around 40 to 42C. That was getting toasty warm.

Here are my results after a last attempt of calibration with the Anthem ARC for the ep500 sub, First off if you have ARC, never use the same settings for movies as for music, this means doing 2 x 5 position test, this said, with the volume on the ep500 v4 at 12 o'clock I finally have some decent bass (passed the angry wife on second floor test). I was going to pull the trigger on a seaton submersive HP, now I'm confused if I'm going to keep this sub or not or ad a second sub, these rusults having me re-think my setup a bit, I have some space to put only 1 ep800 up front (tight fit next to the m100) along with the ep500 hummmm....

I have to add that in my listening tests it felt like the bass was coming from one side (not enveloping) so adding a second sub on the other side shuld correct things, I was woundering if you can add a ep500 on one side and an ep800 on the other or should I have the same sub on either side.

i can think of 2 reasons that your bass comes from one side;
1: your x-over is set at too high a freq.
2: some of the bass freq. you refer to contain some higher frequencies (higher harmonics?) that are directional because they are higher than around 80 Hz or so.

try it again with pure tones around 30-60 Hz.
those should be omni directional.

about having 1 or 2 subs: 2 subs are ok if they are not very dissimilar.
you should not have any trouble using a 500 and a 800.
check my gallery for that.

I had the realization once I started to place pieces of tape on the floor and put in the cardboard boxes for the LFT1100 into the room that there would be little space to move. Those subs are pretty big so I think that I'd better re-think where and what size and get the room working for me before adding in new subs.

I know TAM will love them, and he is right.. His gain.

Cool idea to map it out first with tape. Who needs to move when you can have huge subs! are you in flooring mode yet? Almost done?

The project is still in the startup stages. I have learnt that it's best to figure out what you need before you start building, then trying to append the design when you figure out half way through that it simply won't work.

I have my cables hopefully coming in the next few days. The cork flooring is on order and will be picked up in the next few weeks. I am working on deciding how much I spend on the outside walls for insulation.

I taped out where everything was planned to go to make sure it all will fit and to figure out where I need to put in cable drops for speakers, networks, electrical, lighting, conduit runs etc.

I find it far easier to do it visually in the room than theoretical on paper as real life space is far different than on paper.

A large EP800 carton was sitting in front of my garage this morning looking in good shape. It was delivered while I was still in the rack & I was up earlier than normal for an ophthalmology appointment. UPS Tracking was virtually nil; however, it arrived out here on the west coast in 6 days, so I can't complain about that. Eagerly awaiting the second one early next week.

I do have a dilemma - my second cataract surgery is unexpectedly scheduled now for tomorrow. No heavy lifting allowed for two weeks following. What to do???

TAM

And the wife? Is she having cataract surgery too?

Hmmm - never thought of that...

TAM

I believe the bottom line is that you are experiencing the issues and limitations of sub eq's which, depending on your room, can make things more complicated than they should be. For a few years now, I have incorporated in to my system(with 4 subs) a dedicated Velodyne SMS-1 digtal sub eq which has been on the market for awhile now yet offers on-screen programming,multiple set-ups, moveable parametric adjustment from 15-200HZ and both Auto and Manual memories with adjustment capability on the fly. Of course, the ultimate goal with any of these calibration devices is to achieve as flat a frequency response as possible in your room. The problem is, when all is said and done, you may not like what you hear.

In the beginning when I did the Auto set-up(which shows on-screen in real time) it showed a reasonably flat response. When I did the calibration manually, I was able to tweak a few adjustments so the on-screen graphs were even more precise. The trouble was, when the calibration was complete and I did some critical listening, I didn't like the sound. The accurate flat response in my room had the 30HZ and higher frequencies mask much of the frequency below that level which wasn't to my taste so I ended up lowering the middle frequencies and slightly boosting the bottom end which is now to my taste and suits every musical or movie circumstance.

Bottom line? Technical accuracy may not be what you like. Ultimately, let your ears determine the final outcome.

You and most other folks probably would not like a flat frequency response in the bass region and up unless you are listening to it at reference levels (around 85 dB), which is very uncomfortable. When it is quieter then that is is much harder to hear lower frequencies, which is why you prefer the boosted bottom end. Programs like Audyssey Dynamic Eq are designed to compensate for this change in how we per-sieve sounds as the volume level changes. This seems like the best solution, so that as we change the volume we don't have to change the EQ to our tastes. Dynamic Eq is definitely something I will get in my next receiver/processor.

well, I talked my wife into unboxing our first EP800 tonight. Despite its size & weight, it was relatively easy as we were able to slide it on a bath towel along our shiny laminate floor. Carpeting would have been another matter.

Firstly, the cabinet is gorgeous & flawless. Easily connected & I fired it up (not calibrated yet) & played some Clapton on DVD through it at about half volume & up to -15 Db on my AVR. Sounded clean, accurate & very musical. As a test, I turned on my remaining Velo & it was not apparent at all.

Here are some pics of new on the left & old on the right. I resurrected my old DIY stands for the M22s until I can get a real set from Axiom. 'Beast' #2 is scheduled to arrive on Friday.





TAM

Ended up returning the ep500 V4 and gettting a new 15'' ported sub in the next couple of days... hopefully this will be the one that will work for me.

I get it. I like sealed ok for music but HT is a different story IMHO. Plenty out there to choose from. Hope you find one that suits your tastes.GL


Like they say , There's no replacement for displacement!!!
Richard

since I listen to 90% movies and I just didn't feel the bass like my old 15'' klipsch. My opinion the new ep500 is more suited for a musical application, a 12'' simply can't reproduce what a 15'' can but at the end I guess it comes down to personal tastes, so now I went back to the ported 15'' route, will be starting with one sub and if it works out I'll have a dual setup in no-time. going to recieve the sub & know this monday!!!

Well I spent most of yesterday in the horizontal position recovering from my second cataract surgery, so I took advantage of this 'down' time to audition my first EP800 with music. I won't run any movies until the second one is setup & Audyssey is run.

I watched (as best that I could with an eye patch) a couple of high quality, live concerts - Clapton/Winwood & Sade. The single EP800 was superbly powerful, accurate & musical; however, what was most impressive was a multi-channel SACD of Spyro Gyra that is recorded & mixed in an outstanding manner. This fusion jazz album contains huge dynamics & percussion with lots of low freq Upright & Electric Bass in the mix.

I can't imagine how scary the addition of the second one will be in my room when it arrives tomorrow. Interestingly, my M22s & VP160 are easily blended with this monster.

BTW, I can see even better this morning, ha!. I'm expecting 20/20 in both eyes shortly...

TAM

Excellent news about your eyes and your ears, TAM!

picked up a psa xv15 amp and even with exchange rate, shipping and the taxes, this sub is the best bang for the buck... I finally got the bass I was looking for. I will most likely get a second one. Cs reminds me when Axiom started up.

Second EP800 arrived all OK - no damage at all. Again, this is a magnificent looking box in HG Rosewood that is flawless.

I fired it up & played some dynamic fusion - Spyro Gyra again. All I can say is that two of these beasts is most impressive.

Pic shows a little more balance in my room now:



Note my reflection in the screen - kind of a selfie, ha!

TAM

Looks great tam, enjoy.

Wow.... Both good looks and performance. You better be extra special to your wife before she gets jealous.

Good thing you were clothed when you took the picture.

Well, I was wearing shorts which is something that I normally don't do unless it is really warm, & it is. We broke a record yesterday here at the Comox airport out on the cape, 31.7C, but at our house it was 36C on our deck.

Eventually I will remedy my speakers of many colours, although quite frankly, they look just fine - especially the classy 800s...

TAM

That's a funny coincidence!

Around here, I'm known as Mark "good looks and performance" Johnson!

Not until that duck has a pair on the opposite side.

Actually, the duck & the other objects are not for looks & I would rather not have them there at all.

They are my feeble attempts at cat control to try to keep my 4 felines out of the innards of my HT stand...

TAM

Oh sure, bring your johnson into this....

I finally got a chance to calibrate my system yesterday - 4 times to get it right.

It really works best if both subs are turned ON, ha! After the third calibration I took off the grills during WOTW demo & it sounded great as it was; however, I saw that the drivers in the left sub were working furiously whereas there was nothing from the right. Oh no, I thought - until I looked at the back & saw no green light. Anyway, out came the Audyssey mic to do it all over once again.

To start, I set the Subs' Gains at 12 0'clock (half way) - too much for Audyssey as it set -12 Db. Tried 10 o'clock & that gave -6 Db which is perfect. Interestingly the Sub Distance (actual is 11') was set at 33' whereas my original Velos were around 14'. After some reading, Audyssey is measuring the delay caused by the sub circuitry/DSP & automatically corrects for it. Best to leave it alone - or so they say.

Anyway, the first half hour of WOTW at -10 Db is most impressive. Being on a concrete slab, the floor does not shake but everything else does! What amazes me is how easily the M22s keep up with these monster subs - excellent combo for HT.

I don't often use this setup for music; however, musically my SACDs sound absolutely superb through my Sony BDP, although the 'surround' vs 'stereo' mixes are a very different listening experience. 'Surround' puts the listener on stage in the center of the musicians whereas 'Stereo' puts one in the audience. While 'Surround' is a great novelty, I really prefer 2 Ch 'Stereo' & my SACDs will return back upstairs to my audio only systems.

I no longer assess my system as 'modest', ha!...

TAM

Tam, now's the occasion for you to play Carpenter's Revolutionary SACD at Ref. Level -1.5 dB. if you haven't done so yet.

you'll hear it like never before, and i find this kind of music much more satisfying than listening to vlf bass in movies like WOTW.

I hear ya, but this is primarily a HT system & this is why I went with bigger subs to try to keep up with everyone else, ha!

I'll try the Carpenter SACD this afternoon. I have several other pipe organ CDs as well from TELARC that I will dust off...

TAM

please tell what you think!

This PM, I listened to the surround mix 'Revolutionary' SACD. In my medium size room, I found that I could tolerate only a -10 Db level as any louder, it became brutal during intense passages. I both heard & felt the tremendous power of that impressive electronic organ.

I finally have a system that can do justice to these classical works. I now must try a CD featuring a pipe organ recital in a cathedral...

TAM

Tom, you might try this one .

Tom,

If your interested i have the below SACD that i'll send you. I can't listen to it.. With dual 600's it literally gives me a headache... Careful with the pipe organ stuff, you may be getting in over your head.. It sounds like a good idea, until you're picking the dishes up off of the floor....

http://www.amazon.com/Revolutionary-Came...meron+carpenter

PM me your address if you want the above disk.

John:

Thanks for the suggestion. I have some of TELARC's CDs of Micheal Murray from the past. So, much of the material on 'Organ Blaster' I already have.

dak:

Thanks for your kind offer. I already have the 'Revolutionary' SACD & even at -10 Db level, it does impress.

One thing about pipe organ music, cathedrals can handle the power much better than most homes, ha!

BTW, I suggest 'Tylenol #3s' for bass headaches, ha!

TAM

I've been fussin with Audyssey for the last week trying to get it 'right'.

My main concern was level matching of the EP800s with each other. I don't have a SPL Meter & am reluctant to spend a bunch of bucks on one for what I would think would be minimal use.

Recently my phone company gave us a cheap, free Android smart phone (Huawei) so I decided to try to download a free SPL Meter App. It was a frustrating exercise, but I finally got it installed. I then roughly calibrated it using my Denon's Test Tones. For my usage, 'absolute' accuracy isn't as important as 'relative' accuracy.

My last Audyssey run gave a -11 Db SW setting so the Subs' Gains were too high. I ran the Denon's SW Test Tones & close-miced the output of each sub individually. Output averaged 85 Db each so I tweeked each Sub's Gain down to 80 Db (Gains now at about 10 o'clock).

I ran Audyssey again & it set the Sub Level at -8.5 Db & Distance of 24' (double the actual). I ran some dynamic music through it & it is now just fine.

Interestingly, I watched the SPL Meter during the pinging of the automatic calibration process. For normal speakers, the meter bounced around 75 Dbs & the SW around 65 Dbs (understandable given the little mic in the phone). So, for my purposed this little freeware app worked wonderfully & saved me some money so that I can Trade Up more speakers, ha!

TAM

I managed to snag an ancient analogue RS SPL Meter (#33-2050) off of ebay for $6.50. Only problem was the shipping from the US (3 X the price of the item) that is now getting exorbitant. I got that model because from what I've read, it was generally the most accurate of the RS meter line.

I wanted to recheck the levels of my 800s with an actual meter instead of my previous phone app. I put it on a tripod with the front leg just touching the bottom of the cabinet (meter about 2' from the drivers) & ran the Denon AVR tones. My cheap phone app proved to be actually pretty good in that just the smallest adjustment was required to one of the sub's levels to match the other.

I moved the meter back to my MLP & played the tones through the other speakers & they all came in at around 73 Db with the subs being about 83/85 Db. So my Audyssey seems to be doing its job OK.

I played a Spyro Gyra SACD at my normal -15 Db level that gave me SPLs of 80 to 85 Db - fairly loud but comfortable...

TAM