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#404396 - 05/20/14 12:24 PM M100 or LFR1100
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Hi all,

Greeting from Taiwan. A new member here! I email the same question to Axiom on Sunday and haven't gotten any reply so I figure I will try here. I have a full set of Epic 80.800 7.1 (all v3) system set up for my media room.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/galleries/404392

M80 and the rest of Axiom gears are great so far. But I do 2CH stereo listening also and find the lower range of M80 a bit lacking (still a very capable speaker!). However, what do you guys think about the new Omni LFR1100? How would that fit in with the rest of Axiom V3 gears for HT? Considering this room was set up as media room to begin with. I am worry that omni speakers are not going to cope with the rest of the system. I do have a dedicated listening room somewhere in the house. But it would be nice to be able to enjoy some 2CH music in this room from time to time. So what's your take on the LFR1100 as main speakers for HT application? or are the M100s better suited for this purpose? Thanks for your input.

Cheers

Howard


Edited by iloveturbo (05/20/14 12:27 PM)

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#404397 - 05/20/14 12:40 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1012
Howard:

Last weekend was a long holiday weekend over here so perhaps that is why you didn't get a reply yet.

Can't you use your tremendous sub with your M80s for music?

TAM

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#404398 - 05/20/14 12:46 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
BobKay Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 3141
Loc: Massachusetts Badlands
Welcome, Howard. There are many regular visitors here who can and will answer your questions. Be patient. It won't take long.

There are many more qualified than I for info, but I just traded in my M60's for M100's. I do A LOT of 2 ch listening. These are not larger versions of M80's. They are a different animal.

A friend who has v3-M80's came over to hear the 100's and now doesn't talk to me anymore. And you will have to turn up your sub to even notice it's on.

I love them to pieces.

LFR's are, again, a different animal.

My 1st suggestion is not to re-email Axiom, but to call them at the 866 # at the top of this page. They WILL get back to you and they WILL answer all of your questions.

Good luck. Let us know what you decide.


Edited by BobKay (05/20/14 12:48 PM)
_________________________
"Ya rolls the dice and ya takes yer chanskes."
Popeye

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#404402 - 05/20/14 12:58 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Welcome, Howard!

That is a VERY beautiful home theater room!

And you say that you ALSO have a dedicated listening room elsewhere? Very good, and congratulations!

I do not think it would be worth the extra expense to purchase LFR1100 for 2-channel listening IN THAT ROOM. You seem to be quite limited in speaker placement due to the projection screen and the furniture. I do not think you would be able to adequately position the LFR1100 to optimize their performance.

Bob's experience with the M100's would seem to be very relevant to your situation, though. I would not have hesitation about purchasing new versions of that model and having them integrate well with the rest of your beautiful system.

Cheers!
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#404405 - 05/20/14 01:21 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: tomtuttle]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: exlabdriver
Last weekend was a long holiday weekend over here so perhaps that is why you didn't get a reply yet.
Can't you use your tremendous sub with your M80s for music?
TAM


Ah, that makes perfect sense. I am sure they will get back to me as their customer service had been great.

You are right, that sub can always be switched on. But for us two channel lover, we sometime like to get back to the basic and let just the two speakers do the dance.

Originally Posted By: BobKay
A friend who has v3-M80's came over to hear the 100's and now doesn't talk to me anymore.


lol. He hates you doesn't he?

Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Welcome, Howard!
And you say that you ALSO have a dedicated listening room elsewhere? Very good, and congratulations!
That is a VERY beautiful home theater room!


Thanks for the kind word. Yeah the dedicated room got some B&W / Accuphase love. That's where I do my mind meditating smile

By the sound of it the LFR1100 would be far more position critical than M100?

---------

Cheers

Howard

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#404407 - 05/20/14 01:58 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Originally Posted By: iloveturbo
By the sound of it the LFR1100 would be far more position critical than M100?


I think the resounding answer is "yes".

Now, I own neither product (and actually haven't even heard them, yet), so my answer is based primarily on study of the Axiom product line and design philosophy over the years.

The LFR1100 will simply have more interaction with the room than a direct-radiating speaker (like the M80 or M100). The LFR series relies on direct and reflected sound, so positioning relative to the back wall and other boundaries is more important.

I'm sure that the LFR1100's would sound very lovely in that room. My concern is that you don't seem to have much latitude regarding the main speaker placement relative to the rear wall, side walls or furniture. As such, you may not be able to optimize their omnidirectional properties. But they certainly wouldn't sound WORSE than the M100's.

And - who knows - you might like them better than your B&W's and rearrange everything!
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#404432 - 05/20/14 07:14 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: tomtuttle]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
The size of the media room is actually twice as large then shown in the photo. So I got some more room to play with in that sense. So question remains, how well would the omni directional speaker like LFR-1100 work in a HT application? I think M100 will more matched in that sense since it shares similar design to M80.

Update: Got response from Brent, I thought I share with rest of you.

Originally Posted By: Brent Tombari
The LFR1100 would be superb within a HT format and would interact without issue with your current components. The LFR1100 will require 4 channels of power to drive the speakers. If your current drive system has main L/R preouts, they would connect to the DSP L/R inputs, from the DSP outputs your would connect the 4 channel amplifier which in turn connects to the LFR1100. I would recommend that you look to either the ADA1250-4 or the ADA1500-4 amplifier to drive the LFR1100.



Edited by iloveturbo (05/20/14 07:32 PM)

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#404433 - 05/20/14 07:33 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
oakvillematt Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 182
Loc: Oakville, Canada
I recently picked up a set of M80.v4 speakers and coming from a pair of small bookshelf Energy C3 to the larger M80, I can't imagine someone saying they sound lacking.

I had posted on another forum section about CD/Albums that sound under-welming with the Axiom speakers. Some songs that once before to me were great, with the new better speakers now sound empty and lacking body. The problem for me is not the speakers, but simply the recording just isn't good enough. An adequate speaker can make anything sound pretty good. But hook up a great speaker and all the limitations and inadequacies of an inferior recording are displayed up front and center as the speaker re-produces what was recorded with crystal clarity. That was what I ran into.

So I ask, just for clarification. Does the speakers sound lacking with all music or just some? And the music that is lacking, does it sound just as lacking in your dedicated listening room?

Another option that you can try to get better sound might be to look into room acoustics? I have found that music tends to be more demanding on the room than a movie, so where a movie can overpower the room limitations.. music relies on subtleties that can easily get lost in a room that is acoustically not right.

Please don't take this as me pointing the finger at you, as I have never been in your room or know anything about how it is set up. Just offering some ideas to look into before ordering new equipment. I'd hate for you to buy new stuff only to find out it sounds the same as it's not the hardware but the room or recording that is causing the deficiency.
_________________________
Matt

People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

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#404434 - 05/20/14 07:48 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1012
Perhaps you could get another sub & hook it up in truly 2 Channel (Stereo) mode.

This is what I do with my M2s Sats plus a pair of EP400s Subs hooked up to my Tube Amp from the amp's 'speaker out' connections to the 'High Level In' on each sub - not through an LFE channel where both channels are most often combined.

This way they are truly 2 CH Stereo with the nice ability to dial in the bass response the way that makes you happy....

TAM

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#404435 - 05/20/14 08:04 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: oakvillematt]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: oakvillematt
I recently picked up a set of M80.v4 speakers and coming from a pair of small bookshelf Energy C3 to the larger M80, I can't imagine someone saying they sound lacking.


Hey Matt, thx for the input. Glad to hear from another M80 owner. The lower frequency response on V4 is suppose to be vastly improved to V3 due to redesign of drivers. But you are absolutely right, there are plenty of other improvement can be made to the room to further enhance the experience before needing to upgrade anything at all.

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#404436 - 05/20/14 08:19 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: exlabdriver]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: exlabdriver
Perhaps you could get another sub & hook it up in truly 2 Channel (Stereo) mode.
This way they are truly 2 CH Stereo with the nice ability to dial in the bass response the way that makes you happy....

TAM


TAM, you just gave me some ideas. Time to do some experiment. Thanks for the suggestion. Cheers~

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#404437 - 05/20/14 10:16 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10383
Howard, welcome to Axiom for you and your gorgeous media room. When you say that the "lower range" is a bit lacking in the M80, I assume that you mean is that the low frequency extension isn't as low as you'd like on some 2-channel material, not that what's there isn't loud enough. If so, neither the M100 or LFR1100 may be the best solution. These speakers have a low frequency extension quite similar to that of the M80 but are able to play at an even louder level in the low bass because of the three woofers they use. For greater bass extension with 2-channel material the efficient move is to use one or two subwoofers crossed over at perhaps 60 or 80Hz.

You shouldn't feel that somehow using just main speakers is a "purer" approach, since subs, both by their inherent design and by being able to be placed better for bass reproduction, simply can do a better job than the mains can alone.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#404443 - 05/21/14 06:32 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: JohnK]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: JohnK

You shouldn't feel that somehow using just main speakers is a "purer" approach, since subs, both by their inherent design and by being able to be placed better for bass reproduction, simply can do a better job than the mains can alone.


Well said. I guess I was a too stuck up on the whole "pureness" setup I had for my B&W 804 Diamond speakers. Come to think of it there really isn't downside of putting the sub I got to work.

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#404452 - 05/21/14 09:44 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Howard,

Following what John has said, if you think about it. Pair of 800Ds each have a 12 woofer. So, they essentially have a subwoofer built into the cabinet, they are just being powered by your two channel amp instead of a dedicated amp.


Ive got a pair of LFRs in my main room; which I use for home theater, as well as stereo. I also have a pair of EP 600s. The 600s are oriented such that each one is next to an LRF. I can say the LFRs are amazing both in stereo, as well as in an HT application.

The best way I can convey the difference between the LFR and a pair of M60/M80 speaker is..

They open up the sound stage in a way that going to a play, or going to the symphony does. If you think about the difference between a live performance as compared to watching the same performance on TV even with a HT system, there is still an audible difference.. Thats about the best comparison that I can make. When youre at the symphony, the instruments radiate sound in all directions, and by the design of the hall those sound waves are re-directed towards the audience. You hear both the direct and indirect sound waves. I think the LFRs do a good job at replicating this phenomenon. They make your room seem much larger than it actually is. The room mine are in are 17feet/18feet.

Also, I have not found any issue with placement. Mine are about 2-3 feet off of the wall, and towed in. Ive tied moving them around a decent amount, and they always sound good.


Hope this helps.

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#404457 - 05/21/14 10:57 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: dakkon]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: dakkon
I think the LFRs do a good job at replicating this phenomenon. They make your room seem much larger than it actually is. The room mine are in are 17feet/18feet.

Also, I have not found any issue with placement. Mine are about 2-3 feet off of the wall, and towed in. Ive tied moving them around a decent amount, and they always sound good.

Hope this helps.


Dakkon, that's the answer I was looking for. So LFR series does in fact implement well with the rest of Axiom HT components. That's good to know, thanks!!

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#404458 - 05/21/14 11:07 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
J. B. Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1269
Loc: Quebec, Canada
i wonder what would the difference be between the M80s and the LFRs.

when listening through my M80s in Stereo, if the acoustic recording is good, and the volume is set exactly right, then my room totally disappears and takes on a specific size for each disc i listen to.
the main difference when using a surround mode is the fact that the illusion is more complete and solid on the back side of the room.

for me, the surprise comes when i play a piece of music where i find the apparent room is the same size as my real room. they both seem to coincide in size.
some other times, the superimposed room seems limitless...

how would the LFRs improve on this? i just can't imagine...


Edited by J. B. (05/21/14 11:17 AM)
_________________________
See:http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=Gelli
or: Axiom Gallery

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#404466 - 05/21/14 01:06 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
J.B.

The LFRs are a completely different animal. While one can obtain very good imaging with a pair of stereo speakers, the experience is completely different with the LFRs. The best comparison that I can think of is the one above with the symphony. I guess its one of those intangible/ unquantifiable experiences. Sure, we can look at the response graphs ect. But, those do not convey the LFR experience at all

I would say that the LFRs are the hardest speaker in Axioms line up to convey the experience over the internet

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#404469 - 05/21/14 01:25 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
J. B. Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1269
Loc: Quebec, Canada
thanks dakkon.

too bad my room is too small for the LFRs, at around 9 x 9 x 16 Ft.
_________________________
See:http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=Gelli
or: Axiom Gallery

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#404470 - 05/21/14 01:42 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
All this talk got me interested in possibly getting a set of LFR1100. My room size is around 35 x 40 x 8 feet so this large extreme large sound stage is very tempting.

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#404473 - 05/21/14 02:13 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Howard,

What will you be using for amplification? Keep in mind the LFRs require 2 channels of amplification per speaker. So, you will need 4 channels. If you are using different amps, all channels should have the same gain; however they do not need to have the same power rating. The amp that is powering my front drivers is considerably more powerful than the amp powering my rear drivers.

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#404474 - 05/21/14 02:37 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: dakkon]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: dakkon
Howard, What will you be using for amplification?


Dakkon, I got couple Parasound A21 laying around so I was thinking if I get the bi-amp LFR I could always run through that first. IF I get LFR smile

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#404479 - 05/21/14 04:40 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 211
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
That would certainly work. I have mine hooked to a four channel Axiom ADA1500 which is excellent.

Just to give you an idea, the LFR's do benefit from a good bit of space behind them. I myself also use mine in an HT room but it is rather on the small side. I initially set them up in the same spots where I'd had a pair of M80's and found them excellent. Then I moved them forward as much as is possible and found them even more excellent.

As long as you can position your LFR's a good foot or two further from the wall from where your M80's currently are I'm sure you'll be very happy with the sonic results!

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#404490 - 05/21/14 10:27 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: cohesion]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: cohesion
Just to give you an idea, the LFR's do benefit from a good bit of space behind them.


Hi Cohesion, thanks for chiming in. I just measured the distance of my M80s to the back wall. They are about 55cm which is almost of 2 feet. How far are your LFR set from the backwall currently?

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#404499 - 05/22/14 01:08 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Update:

I came home early from work tonight started to do some home theatre room wiring/ setup calibration. First I carefully reposition the axiom speakers and EP800 sub, then I ran Audyssey MultEQ XT32 through my Onkyo TX-NR5009 and tested the sound off Parasound amp to make sure everything sounded the way should be. I then hooked up and fired up the JVC DLA-RS-65 and proceeded to calibrate the 4K image fired onto 120" 2.35:1 Stewart firehawk screen via Spyder4Elite. Couple hours later, I finally go to my favorite part of the night; putting "The Dark Knight Rises" BD disk into OPPO 105D and got to enjoy my hard work...lol..

I am happy to report so far Epic 80.800 lived up to my expectation and more. I would like to congratulate Axiom team for a job well done. What a fun night!

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#404506 - 05/22/14 05:09 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
I decided to get a set of high power LFR1100 with fully balanced DSP in the end.

Wife CAN NEVER know about this or she got me for life lol

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#404510 - 05/22/14 08:23 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 211
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: iloveturbo
Originally Posted By: cohesion
Just to give you an idea, the LFR's do benefit from a good bit of space behind them.


Hi Cohesion, thanks for chiming in. I just measured the distance of my M80s to the back wall. They are about 55cm which is almost of 2 feet. How far are your LFR set from the backwall currently?


Hi Turbo,

I'll measure them tomorrow and let you know! Cheers!

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#404512 - 05/22/14 08:50 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1017
Originally Posted By: iloveturbo
I decided to get a set of high power LFR1100 with fully balanced DSP in the end.

Wife CAN NEVER know about this or she got me for life lol



LFR envy...
_________________________
Success!

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#404515 - 05/22/14 09:41 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Congratulations, and excellent choice! I am eager to learn more from your experience!
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#404517 - 05/22/14 11:34 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Crimson Wrath Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 86
Loc: NC
I've been going back and forth on these two models also for a long while and am very interested in what your comparisons are. I'm glad Axiom seems to becoming more mainstream lately with what appears to be more people buying their speakers, because this means there will be more opinions out there from people that are actually using them in their homes, instead of just professional reviews. When the LFRs first came out in their first year there only seemed to be a small handful of people that actually had them and would discuss about them on forums.
_________________________
M60|VP150|2xQS8|PSA XS30+Epik Empire|Pioneer Kuro 6010FD|PS3|Denon AVR-X4000|Parasound 5250v.2|

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#404518 - 05/22/14 11:37 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Originally Posted By: iloveturbo
I decided to get a set of high power LFR1100 with fully balanced DSP in the end.

Wife CAN NEVER know about this or she got me for life lol


did you get a DSP channel for your vp180?

That is the exact same setup that i've got. Now, you'll need to decide which XLR cables to get..

I wound up going with monoprice cables. I was previously using Kimber kable Hero XLR's.. But decided to go with monoprice cables when i got my LFR's... From an electrical engineering point of view, there is no advantage to the kimber kables over the monoprice. The main difference is the quality of the connectors used.. But, for something that is pretty much static that's a moot point in my book.


Good luck.. Your secret is safe here.. As long as your wife doesn't know your screen name..... smile

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#404519 - 05/22/14 11:43 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Originally Posted By: Crimson Wrath
When the LFRs first came out in their first year there only seemed to be a small handful of people that actually had them and would discuss about them on forums.



I've got the second pair of LFR's. I try to help when i can. but, honestly... I haven't seen too many questions in regards to the LFR's.. Now that the M100's are out, maybe there will be a bit more questions like Howard's. Granted, i can't speak to a direct comparison between the M100 vs LFR's (however, Ian.. if you're reading this, ill take a pair of M100's you've got my address smile ). But, for a while i did essentially have a pair of M100's, when my DSP was getting upgraded (the rear drivers were not working, just the front ones). So, i can semi speak to a direct comparison. Even though it would be a loose comparison...

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#404522 - 05/23/14 01:26 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: dakkon]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: dakkon
did you get a DSP channel for your vp180?

That is the exact same setup that i've got. Now, you'll need to decide which XLR cables to get..


I wasn't informed that I need to get the DSP for the VP180. Do I need one?? Mine is the none HP version.

As for the XLR cable, we are definately on the same page.

Cheers

-Howard

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#404525 - 05/23/14 05:16 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Crimson Wrath Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 86
Loc: NC
If you're mostly using the towers for music with a little HT use then I wonder how much benefit getting the upgraded DSP for the center would give you. While looking at upgrading my VP150 to the VP180 I also don't see much benefit to getting the high powered versions for the center. It's mostly used for dialog in movies, so having the upgraded woofers that can handle higher volume without distortion & compression seems unnecessary unless you're HT listening area is really huge and is seating many people.
_________________________
M60|VP150|2xQS8|PSA XS30+Epik Empire|Pioneer Kuro 6010FD|PS3|Denon AVR-X4000|Parasound 5250v.2|

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#404527 - 05/23/14 05:24 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: dakkon]
Crimson Wrath Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 86
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: dakkon
Originally Posted By: Crimson Wrath
When the LFRs first came out in their first year there only seemed to be a small handful of people that actually had them and would discuss about them on forums.



I've got the second pair of LFR's. I try to help when i can. but, honestly... I haven't seen too many questions in regards to the LFR's.. Now that the M100's are out, maybe there will be a bit more questions like Howard's. Granted, i can't speak to a direct comparison between the M100 vs LFR's (however, Ian.. if you're reading this, ill take a pair of M100's you've got my address smile ). But, for a while i did essentially have a pair of M100's, when my DSP was getting upgraded (the rear drivers were not working, just the front ones). So, i can semi speak to a direct comparison. Even though it would be a loose comparison...


Yeah I remember you talking about your LFRs here and other forums a while back. I remember I think on AVS where you were questioned even from the mods on why you got Axiom over Wilsons, and why you were using Krell for Axiom as it seemed overkill. Lots of Axiom bashing over there and Audioholics, but you kept to your guns if I recall.
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#404528 - 05/23/14 05:26 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Crimson Wrath]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
I have no clue why DSP is even needed for the center channel, I was under the impression that signal processing is done via AVR. I tried to look into the Axiom DSP page but I couldn't find more info on it.

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#404531 - 05/23/14 08:21 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
cohesion Offline
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Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 211
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
I just measured and one speaker is about 55 cm from the wall, the other over 65 cm. Ideally they'd both be at 65 but one is near a doorway so this isn't feasible. Also, in my small room this is really the best I can do but with more space I'd try moving them even further.

I hope this helps!

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#404533 - 05/23/14 08:29 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
cohesion Offline
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Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 211
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: iloveturbo
I have no clue why DSP is even needed for the center channel, I was under the impression that signal processing is done via AVR. I tried to look into the Axiom DSP page but I couldn't find more info on it.


The DSP for the centre channel is entirely optional. It is simply to further smooth and straighten the response curves for the centre channel speaker. I currently have the VP180 non-HP and I did get the DSP for the centre but haven't tried to do any comparison between with and without the centre DSP. As I understand it the differences would be fairly subtle.

If you like to use Audyssey or some equivalent technology, you may want to check with Axiom on whether it is compatible with the LFR's and centre DSP. In the worst case scenario it might not work at all, and I think it would be very tricky at best to have it work in a positive way at all.

I am not using any form of digital room correction in my system.

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#404534 - 05/23/14 08:37 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Crimson Wrath]
cohesion Offline
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Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 211
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Crimson Wrath
If you're mostly using the towers for music with a little HT use then I wonder how much benefit getting the upgraded DSP for the center would give you. While looking at upgrading my VP150 to the VP180 I also don't see much benefit to getting the high powered versions for the center. It's mostly used for dialog in movies, so having the upgraded woofers that can handle higher volume without distortion & compression seems unnecessary unless you're HT listening area is really huge and is seating many people.


As I understand it, the current trend in movie soundtracks is that more and more audio is being included in the centre channel. I also use my HT for music, including multi-channel music and though I have a small room I do have a tendency to crank the volume up. I was fortunate enough to find a VP180HP for a good price in the Axiom Outlet so I snapped it up. I'll get it installed along with my new v4 LFR's once all the pieces come together.

For what it's worth, my guess is that even the difference between the HP vs regular VP180 is probably bigger than the difference between having or not having the centre channel DSP on the VP180. Hopefully we'll get a comment from Ian or Andrew on this...

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#404539 - 05/23/14 10:36 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
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Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Cohesion, thanks a lot for your input. So you got the VP180 HP? Very nice!

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#404577 - 05/23/14 10:36 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: cohesion]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: cohesion
[quote=iloveturbo]
If you like to use Audyssey or some equivalent technology, you may want to check with Axiom on whether it is compatible with the LFR's


Thats a great question. I am going to email Axiom and post my result for everyone who might be in the same boat.

Cheers

Howard

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#404580 - 05/23/14 10:59 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
dakkon Offline
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Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Howard,

I can save you a bit of time.

Andrew (axiom's head electrical engineer) has stated that he doesn't use any auto room correction. I can not remember if this was in a post on the forum, or in an e-mail. For some reason i think this was in an e-mail.

As far as the LFR's go. I went through the audyssey setup, i did this by unplugging the rear drivers while running audyssey. However, i wound up doing a considerable amount of manual manipulation as well as removing some of the audyssey settings, like the EQ.. I'm using a Marantz AV 8801, which has Audyssey MultEQXT32.

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#404586 - 05/24/14 12:26 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: dakkon]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Dakkon, I really appreciate your help on the subject again. Your answer explain things perfectly. This is my understanding. Conventional method of room correction may not work properly with omni directional speakers like LFR. That's why Axiom designed a three channel DSP (L,R,C) to make sure that the frequency response of center channel correspond with LFR nicely.

Since my AV receiver which uses multEQXT32 as well, I will get DSP3 and experiment with XT32 like you did and if I am not satisfy with the end result I can always reply on DSP3 to dial-in the center speaker.


Edited by iloveturbo (05/24/14 12:28 AM)

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#404597 - 05/24/14 09:54 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17766
Loc: NoVA
Howard,
Just to be clear, the DSP is not a user-adjustable unit.
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#404601 - 05/24/14 10:28 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Ken.C]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
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Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: Ken.C
Howard,
Just to be clear, the DSP is not a user-adjustable unit.


Thanks for the heads up! I was kind of wondering about that.

-Howard

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#404603 - 05/24/14 11:34 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Ian Offline
President
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Registered: 03/13/01
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There is one user accessible adjustment on the DSP which you can use if you need to be fairly close to the rear wall.
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#404604 - 05/24/14 11:45 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Ian]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: Ian
There is one user accessible adjustment on the DSP which you can use if you need to be fairly close to the rear wall.


Thanks for the tip!

It's always a good sign when the owner of the company still take time to interact with the clients online. *thumbs up*

-Howard

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#404613 - 05/24/14 06:50 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 211
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Ian is on here quite frequently!

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#404614 - 05/24/14 06:59 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
cohesion Offline
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Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 211
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: iloveturbo
Dakkon, I really appreciate your help on the subject again. Your answer explain things perfectly. This is my understanding. Conventional method of room correction may not work properly with omni directional speakers like LFR. That's why Axiom designed a three channel DSP (L,R,C) to make sure that the frequency response of center channel correspond with LFR nicely.

Since my AV receiver which uses multEQXT32 as well, I will get DSP3 and experiment with XT32 like you did and if I am not satisfy with the end result I can always reply on DSP3 to dial-in the center speaker.


To be clear, if you get the DSP with centre channel you are spending extra money to make the frequency response for the centre extra flat. That is as measured with Axiom's precise instruments and presumably in their anechoic chamber. If you also use room correction in your receiver it will be making corrections before input to the LFR DSP but after the results of the speaker corrections built in to the Axiom DSP. In short it just seems like over processing at best and potentially may make things worse instead of better.

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#404618 - 05/24/14 09:14 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
brwsaw Offline
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Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1017
And...if I'm not mistaken the DSP is upgradeable after the initial purchase.
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#404619 - 05/24/14 09:35 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: cohesion]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: cohesion
That is as measured with Axiom's precise instruments and presumably in their anechoic chamber.


Understood. Do you know what model of center speaker is the test based on?

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#404620 - 05/24/14 09:57 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17766
Loc: NoVA
They customize the DSP for the center that it will be used with. In other words, if you ordered one for your LFRs and your VP180, the DSP would be built for the LFRs and the VP180. If someone ordered one for their M80s and a VP160, it would be built for those.
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#404621 - 05/24/14 10:50 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
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That's nice. I have a gut feeling that I will end up bypassing Audyssey!

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#404656 - 05/26/14 03:12 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Got a reply from Brent and I quote

"The LFR1100 or any omni-directional performing speaker, would not be compatible with Audyssey or other room correction devices. Turn the room correction off and set up the system manually for the best performance for both music or movie soundtracks.

The DSP provides a very linear performance to the VP180 which is already avery linear performer. The gain is not substantial with the DSP for the center speaker. You would have mush greater improvement to the system by upgrading the VP180 from v3 to v4 high power to match the LFR1100 which are High Power as well."

Hopefully this helps anyone who may be in the same boat.

-Howard

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#404670 - 05/27/14 11:44 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Crimson Wrath Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 86
Loc: NC
So for one that already has an AVR with auto correction software such as Audyssey MultXT 32 the DSP inclusion for LFRs would be out of place, or rather the AVR would. This really makes me want to hear them now, because I love the sound correction made by my Denon X4000. I suppose if once testing LFRs after manually setting them up properly you'd have to decide which sounds better, the LFRs or the previous stereo/AVR setup, then either returning the entire setup of LFRs with their DSP, or returning/selling your fancy AVR with auto correction depending on which you could finally decide on.
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#404712 - 05/28/14 01:33 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
MichaelTrottar Offline
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Registered: 12/10/13
Posts: 84
I currently have the VP180 non-HP and I did get the DSP for the center but have not tried to do any evaluation between with and without the center DSP.
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#404758 - 05/28/14 05:01 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Crimson Wrath]
cohesion Offline
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Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 211
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Crimson Wrath
So for one that already has an AVR with auto correction software such as Audyssey MultXT 32 the DSP inclusion for LFRs would be out of place, or rather the AVR would. This really makes me want to hear them now, because I love the sound correction made by my Denon X4000. I suppose if once testing LFRs after manually setting them up properly you'd have to decide which sounds better, the LFRs or the previous stereo/AVR setup, then either returning the entire setup of LFRs with their DSP, or returning/selling your fancy AVR with auto correction depending on which you could finally decide on.


You could get the LFRs without the DSP for the centre channel, then you'd still be able to use Audyssey for the centre and surrounds. That is, as long as your receiver allows this option.

I cannot imagine that, after hearing the LFRs, you'd want to send them back...

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#404815 - 05/29/14 09:29 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Crimson Wrath]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: Crimson Wrath
So for one that already has an AVR with auto correction software such as Audyssey MultXT 32 the DSP inclusion for LFRs would be out of place, or rather the AVR would.


That is what my original concern with LFR1100 was knowing that it's not going to be compatible with room correction software. But I took the plunge and ordered a set anyway. I did so because knowing Andrew's past experience in designing Dipolar/Omnidirectional loudspeakers. I also got the VP180 V4 HP center upgrade just for the heck of it and I still got the M80 V3 so I will be able to do some comparison tests too.

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#404867 - 05/30/14 02:43 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
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Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Update:

I was planning to power the LFRs with pair of Parasound A21. But I sold them today to a friend so my plan has to alter for a bit. A colleague of mine who happens to be an audiophile told me he has been testing his Revel Salon2 with a pair of pro amp by Crown for few months and he was very impressed by them. Today I had the pleasure to listen to his salons in his house driven by two Crown XLS 2500 and I too am impressed by what I heard. We discussed the possibility of removing the fan and make the unit passive cooled as well as making a 12V trigger to power on the units to better suit the home environment .

Long story short, few hours later (I gotta stop spending money on audio gear, according to my better half) I took the plunge and ordered two sets of Crown XLS2000 for my mains, and three sets of Crown XLS1500 to power my new VP180 V4HP and four QS8. I think it's safe to say I should have enough power for my new home theatre smile I will let you guys know how it turns out.

Below are the spec of the XLS series and a thread by Andrew Robinson, interesting reads.

XLS 1000 XLS 1500 XLS 2000 XLS 2500

Stereo (2 Ohms) 550 Watts 775 Watts 1050 Watts 1200 Watts
Stereo (4 Ohms) 350 Watts 525 Watts 650 Watts 775 Watts
Stereo (8 Ohms) 215 Watts 300 Watts 375 Watts 440 Watts
Bridge (8 Ohms) 700Watts 1050 Watts 1300 Watts 1550 Watts
Bridge (4 Ohms) 1100 Watts 1550 Watts 2100 Watts 2400 Watts

http://www.crownaudio.com/xls-drivecore.html

http://www.hometheaterequipment.com/mono....html#post20994

-Howard


Edited by iloveturbo (05/30/14 02:58 AM)

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#404876 - 05/30/14 12:15 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
stoudtlr Offline
buff

Registered: 03/24/14
Posts: 43
Please share your impressions after you get them hooked up! I use a pro amp for my subs, but hadn't considered going with pro amps for the other speakers.
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#404879 - 05/30/14 12:43 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
J. B. Online   content
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Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1269
Loc: Quebec, Canada
i use pro-amps for all my speakers, except for the subs which have their own amplification.
i would not want it any other way.
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#404901 - 05/30/14 05:05 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
BBIBH Offline
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Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1034
Loc: Canada
That cloud of dust you see in the distance is the "All amps sound the same" crowd rushing in to tell you the folly of your ways! smile

That amp setup should have an ear-awaking effect on you, your neighbors, the next town, etc.... LOL
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Mike

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#404904 - 05/30/14 05:30 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
oakvillematt Offline
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Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 182
Loc: Oakville, Canada
Don't know if i could use a Crown XLS.. wouldn't get the WAF. at least make them look reasonable good with the current equipment.
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People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

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#404908 - 05/30/14 06:29 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
brwsaw Offline
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Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1017
I have to force my wife into the minimi theater.
Sometimes this is a good thing, especially when (not)considering the WAF.
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#404909 - 05/30/14 06:38 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
dakkon Offline
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Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Howard,

Below are the specs for the amp's that i have powering my LFR's. I've got a smaller amp powering the rear drivers. you don't necessarily need the same amount of power available to the rear drivers as the front. The most important factor is that both amps would have the exact same gain. This is the guidance i got from Andrew when i was making my amp selection.

Amp powering the front drivers
8 Ohms 300 W 4 Ohms 600 W 2 Ohms 1200 W
Amp powering the rear drivers
8 Ohms 250 W 4 Ohms 500 W

You should be more than happy with the amps you chose. Oh, and with the power you'll have; the only thing you will need to worry about is tripping your circuit breakers (i haven't tripped one yet... ).

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#404910 - 05/30/14 06:51 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: oakvillematt]
stoudtlr Offline
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Registered: 03/24/14
Posts: 43
Originally Posted By: oakvillematt
Don't know if i could use a Crown XLS.. wouldn't get the WAF. at least make them look reasonable good with the current equipment.


There's a tutorial thread on AVS for taking apart the iNuke series of pro amps so the chassis can be repainted black to match other AV gear. I plan on doing it with mine at some point, but will use Plastidip so it's easy to peel off in case of a warranty return. I'm sure the other brands can't be any harder, just a little different.
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#404920 - 05/31/14 08:38 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: dakkon]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: dakkon

You should be more than happy with the amps you chose. Oh, and with the power you'll have; the only thing you will need to worry about is tripping your circuit breakers (i haven't tripped one yet... ).


Hi Dakkon, I got five sets of dedicated breaker for this HT room. So hopefully I won't run into any problem.

BTW the seller of Crown amps offer me something I can't refuse so looks like I will be using Crown XLS 2500 instead of XLS 2000. So that's 775W @ 4ohm x2 per LFR. I say that should keep me rocking for while lol. I mean after all, five sets of Crown XLS still cheaper than what I sold one of my Parasound A21 for. It's a win in my book!

-Howard

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#404921 - 05/31/14 08:44 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: oakvillematt]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: oakvillematt
Don't know if i could use a Crown XLS.. wouldn't get the WAF. at least make them look reasonable good with the current equipment.


Matt, Crown XLS is really affordable compare to consumer grade amps! Look them up and you will see. I got a pair for less than $850

Tell your wife you are actually saving her money! smile Alright, I know I am pushing it.

-Howard

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#404923 - 05/31/14 09:06 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: BBIBH]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: BBIBH
That cloud of dust you see in the distance is the "All amps sound the same" crowd rushing in to tell you the folly of your ways! smile

That amp setup should have an ear-awaking effect on you, your neighbors, the next town, etc.... LOL


For some reason this song came to me when I read your post lol.


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#404930 - 05/31/14 01:48 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1017
SNL shorts are the best, these guys deserve more attention then they get.
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#405005 - 06/03/14 09:48 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
oakvillematt Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 182
Loc: Oakville, Canada
so turbo, have you had any luck getting your LFR?? mine are still stuck at Axiom as it seems getting them actually shipped out is harder than paying for them.

I hope that Debbie pulls through as she told me she will make sure they are shipped tomorrow for me.

I am very interested in knowing how they stack up with your B&W ??
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People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

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#405006 - 06/03/14 10:27 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: oakvillematt]
Crimson Wrath Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 86
Loc: NC
Yeah, considering the price of the B&W Diamonds, it will be very interesting to get an honest comparison.
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#405008 - 06/03/14 11:27 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: oakvillematt]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: oakvillematt
so turbo, have you had any luck getting your LFR??
I am very interested in knowing how they stack up with your B&W ??


Hi Matt, No I haven't receive anything yet. I too am interested to see how LFR will perform. In all honesty, my guess is that LFR being omni directional would be complete different animal altogether.

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#405009 - 06/03/14 11:40 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: J. B.]
iloveturbo Offline
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Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: J. B.
i use pro-amps for all my speakers, except for the subs which have their own amplification.
i would not want it any other way.


J.B do you mind sharing with us how you go about hooking up pro amps to your AVR? Did you use RCA to XLR adaptor or some sort? and my understanding is that consumer grade AVR have a pre-out of 1.0V which is less than the requirement of pro amps in order to drive them in full power. Did you do anything to overcome that or is that none issue in real world? Thanks!

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#405010 - 06/03/14 11:47 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Socketman Offline
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Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
I read the online manual and the input sensitivity is 1.4v so it should not be an issue. I could not seem to find the voltage gain spec though. It has rca inputs and xlr so lots of configuration possibilities.
FWIW I really don't know how they get that kind of power out of a 10lb amp. Interested to hear you opinion on its performance.

Richard
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I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#405011 - 06/04/14 12:15 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Crimson Wrath Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 86
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: iloveturbo
Originally Posted By: J. B.
i use pro-amps for all my speakers, except for the subs which have their own amplification.
i would not want it any other way.


J.B do you mind sharing with us how you go about hooking up pro amps to your AVR? Did you use RCA to XLR adaptor or some sort? and my understanding is that consumer grade AVR have a pre-out of 1.0V which is less than the requirement of pro amps in order to drive them in full power. Did you do anything to overcome that or is that none issue in real world? Thanks!


The later Denon AVRs have pre-amp voltage of over 4 volts, this was tested by audioholics a while back when they did a review of an AVR similar to my X4000. You could probably contact the AVR company and find out that specification as it seems to be hard to find on some, but it may be similar. I researched this when making sure that the AVR preouts could be used with high quality, high powered amps.
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#405017 - 06/04/14 07:50 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
J. B. Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1269
Loc: Quebec, Canada
i went the simplest way by using cable with RCA to TR (1/4" phone) on the ends.

when a manufacturer specifies an output of 1 volt, it only indicates the output level for a specific input level;
normally preamp outputs should swing higher than that level.

i haven't checked with my current equipment, but on my former preamp, the max undistorted output was something like 16 Vrms, and a standard output of 2 V.
I'm certain it is less with my current preamp, but so far, i've never lacked power in my small room.
maybe in a large room the preamp outs would not give a signal high enough to drive the amps to max output when needed; then, i would try XLR cables, and i also would increase the sensitivity settings of the amps: my surround amps are set at -6 dB and the front amps at -10 dB.
there are some "adapter boxes" made that go between the preamp and the proamp to increase the available voltage in case the preamp output is too low.

Weight: it has nothing to do with sound quality, but everything to do with the type of power supply and the class of amplification used.


Edited by J. B. (06/04/14 07:54 AM)
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#405019 - 06/04/14 07:54 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
oakvillematt Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 182
Loc: Oakville, Canada
With the case of the LFR, you are running the pre-out from your receiver into the DSP, and that is re-configuring the signal from 2 channels into 4. So the question should not be how much signal is output from your receiver, but how much gain/loss is thrown into the mix with the DSP??

Perhaps Ian will weigh into this question or someone who is in the know from the Axiom group.


Edited by oakvillematt (06/04/14 07:55 AM)
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People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

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#405044 - 06/04/14 12:19 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Update:

I was ready to measure the amperage of the pre-out via spectrum analyzer tonight and just my luck, few seconds before I start my measurement my Onkyo TX-NR5008 just decided to die on me (no sound output from any speaker at all). Upon some research, late Onkyo AVR models seem to all to suffer some sort of HDMI board failures due to overheat/cold soldering. I decide to sell this thing once for all (I will bring it to my company lab tomorrow and have my engineers fix this damn thing) and just get a quality preamp with full XLR output instead. So far I am debating what to get,

Marantz AV8801
Yamaha CX-A5000
Denon Professional DN-500AV

Any other suggestion? Thx!

-Howard




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#405046 - 06/04/14 12:34 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Ive got the 8801. My previous pre-amp was a Krell HTS 7.1. I couldn't Justify the expense of another Krell.. Even more so that they are not owned by Don any more..

I'm really impressed with the 8801, and do not feel it's a downgrade in any way. Infact, i bought one of Marantz's slim line receivers after buying the 8801..

I had similar requirements as yourself. I briefly thought about Anthem, but again.. They are a small manufacture.. The larger companies have much larger R&D budgets, and that budget is spread over a much larger number of units sold.

I don't know if the 500av was out when i was in the market. So, i can't speak to that one, and i didn't consider yamaha at all really.

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#405047 - 06/04/14 12:35 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 768
Loc: Toronto
I suppose I am somewhat biased, however, I purchased the Yamaha CX-A5000 "Aventage" Pre-Pto back a few months ago and because I have had previous Yamaha equipment in recent years along with Marantz and Onkyo, I personally found the Yamaha stuff had the most reliable HDMI connectivity especially when dealing with finnicky cable/sat boxes. From my experience, compared to the competitors(Marantz, Onkyo) it had all of the features and was better overall value and has a full four year warranty.

In addition, apparently to accommodate the forthcoming HDMI 2.0 spec., there is going to be a firmware update on this unit shortly to handle the most up-to-date 4K, 50/60hz spec. No need to replace the unit down the road in order to handle the latest and greatest video.

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#405050 - 06/04/14 01:04 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Thx guys.

AV8801 and a5000 are both great contenders . I just throw Denon to the mix but really didn't really like the spec of it. AV8801 has everything I am looking for and more. Especially the it looked like a quality build which is what i am after. Dakkon I am tempted....lol (wife must not know....)

-Howard

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#405051 - 06/04/14 01:36 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: J. B.]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Originally Posted By: J. B.
i went the simplest way by using cable with RCA to TR (1/4" phone) on the ends.

when a manufacturer specifies an output of 1 volt, it only indicates the output level for a specific input level;
normally preamp outputs should swing higher than that level.

i haven't checked with my current equipment, but on my former preamp, the max undistorted output was something like 16 Vrms, and a standard output of 2 V.
I'm certain it is less with my current preamp, but so far, i've never lacked power in my small room.
maybe in a large room the preamp outs would not give a signal high enough to drive the amps to max output when needed; then, i would try XLR cables, and i also would increase the sensitivity settings of the amps: my surround amps are set at -6 dB and the front amps at -10 dB.
there are some "adapter boxes" made that go between the preamp and the proamp to increase the available voltage in case the preamp output is too low.

Weight: it has nothing to do with sound quality, but everything to do with the type of power supply and the class of amplification used.



Just for the record JB , I did not say anything about the weight having anything to do with sound quality. As an example , Pioneer and their ICE amps. At the time I wrote that I missed where it mention on Crown's site that it was class D and later when I found some pics with the top off and saw the innards. I am old school I admit, in my mind Class D is more suited to subwoofers which is where you most likely to find them and in pro sound where lots of power and efficiency are key. Their is reason they are labeled pro amps, you need to know how to properly implement them, too much gain can equal extra noise and most people like to exceed the limits without understanding the principles. I have seen plenty of sub amps with the gain cranked up because it goes louder. Consumer grade electronic are designed so they play well with each other so the general public doesn't need a degree in electrical engineering to enjoy music. I take it you have the ability and equipment to test these sorts of things based on your above reply, I would love for you to share more of the specs of your equipment, information is always welcome. A lot of specs are left out unfortunately by manufacturers that would help the uninitiated like myself to properly match components. As an example crown does not list voltage gain , though that may be because it as gain controls and a pro would set them with proper equipment (speculation).

Richard
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I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#405053 - 06/04/14 01:58 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Socketman]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: Socketman
As an example crown does not list voltage gain , though that may be because it as gain controls and a pro would set them with proper equipment (speculation).

Richard


Hi Richard, I thought I will chime in on the subject a little bit. I am an electrical engineer by trade and my company deal with IC design on daily basis so I understand the varies fundamental approach to amp design. To me the move away from discrete components to IC carries multiple advantages, not just cost and weight saving. Without bored everyone to death here, let me just say the Crown drivecore IC (from Texas Instrument) is really a bless and move in the right direction. Much like your mobile phone now the day, we are doing things that we dreamed about only ten years ago all thanks for advancement in IC design and manufacturing process. Anyway, I choice Crown XLS not because that's all I can afford. But rather to reward them for make such of wonderful product. Is it perfect? I doubt it, but it's a step in the right direction. It's only going to get better as time progress and other companies following suit.

As for the gain calculation, I quote Avi from Crown

An amp with a voltage gain of X40 will output 40 times it's input sensitivity spec to reach full power on the output, on the XLS series the input sensitivity is 1.4V.
That means that if we put 1.4V on the amps input we get at 8 ohm for the XLS 1000 215W per channel. So we'll calculate the maximum output voltage:
V out max = SQR(P max X R) = SQR(215 X 8) = SQR(1720) = 41.473V
The amps voltage gain is the ratio between the input sensitivity and the amps maximum output voltage. So we take the two figures (Voltage sensitivity=1.4V and Maximum output voltage=41.473V) and find the ratio between them, that's:
R = V1 / V2 = 41.473 / 1.4 = 29.625

Let's redo it for 4 ohm load:
V out max = SQR(P max X R)=SQR(350 X 4) = SQR(1400) = 37.417V
R = V1 / V2 = 37.417 / 1.4 = 26.726"

http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4459&#entry16750

I will be testing the XLS series soon and will give you guys an honest feedback on what I think of it.

Cheers

Howard

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#405054 - 06/04/14 03:04 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Thanks for chiming in. Sadly ( or maybe not) most people aren't EE's and that what I was pointing out. I am not an EE but but I have a decent handle how these things work. Something to pontificate: If class D was all that, why don't the big makers like Denon et al go that route. Imagine the saving on shipping Millions of receivers across the pond if you could cut their weight by half. This could lead us down a dark road on the subject of all amps sound the same so lets no go there.:) As I said before I look forward to your impressions and opinions .

Richard
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#405056 - 06/04/14 03:47 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Socketman]
Crimson Wrath Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 86
Loc: NC
Let's not forget that Axiom amps are class D. The brains at Axiom obviously think that class D is sufficient smile
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#405057 - 06/04/14 03:54 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Crimson Wrath]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Originally Posted By: Crimson Wrath
Let's not forget that Axiom amps are class D. The brains at Axiom obviously think that class D is sufficient smile


With a HUGE power supply. I think Richard was coming from the perspective of a Class D amp with a wimpy power supply. Axiom uses one of the largest power supplies for the rated power that i've seen; which is one of the most important parts of the overall performance of the unit.

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#405063 - 06/04/14 05:12 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Thanks Alex , you echoed my thought exactly. Looking inside the crown xls reveals a lot of barren land LOL. It weighs 10lbs the Axiom is 58, so I think they serve 2 entirely different markets. Still the fact remains that for most listening we seldom exceed even a few watts.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#405064 - 06/04/14 05:35 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
BobKay Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 3141
Loc: Massachusetts Badlands
Originally Posted By: iloveturbo
Originally Posted By: Socketman
As an example crown does not list voltage gain , though that may be because it as gain controls and a pro would set them with proper equipment (speculation).

Richard


As for the gain calculation, I quote Avi from Crown

An amp with a voltage gain of X40 will output 40 times it's input sensitivity spec to reach full power on the output, on the XLS series the input sensitivity is 1.4V.
That means that if we put 1.4V on the amps input we get at 8 ohm for the XLS 1000 215W per channel. So we'll calculate the maximum output voltage:
V out max = SQR(P max X R) = SQR(215 X 8) = SQR(1720) = 41.473V
The amps voltage gain is the ratio between the input sensitivity and the amps maximum output voltage. So we take the two figures (Voltage sensitivity=1.4V and Maximum output voltage=41.473V) and find the ratio between them, that's:
R = V1 / V2 = 41.473 / 1.4 = 29.625

Let's redo it for 4 ohm load:
V out max = SQR(P max X R)=SQR(350 X 4) = SQR(1400) = 37.417V
R = V1 / V2 = 37.417 / 1.4 = 26.726"

http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4459&#entry16750

I will be testing the XLS series soon and will give you guys an honest feedback on what I think of it.

Cheers

Howard


Howard, dude, I thought you said you weren't going to bore
us! I was just beginning to trust you. This sets us back.
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#405065 - 06/04/14 05:57 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Socketman]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: Socketman
Thanks for chiming in. Sadly ( or maybe not) most people aren't EE's and that what I was pointing out. I am not an EE but but I have a decent handle how these things work. Something to pontificate: If class D was all that, why don't the big makers like Denon et al go that route. Imagine the saving on shipping Millions of receivers across the pond if you could cut their weight by half. This could lead us down a dark road on the subject of all amps sound the same so lets no go there.:) As I said before I look forward to your impressions and opinions .

Richard


Richard, No doubt the power supplies are on the light side. It's designed in a way so if my wife found out I spend more money on audio equipments she is able to pick it up and throw at me eek

Seriously though, pro audio gears are designed to be on the go hence they often try to be as light as possible. Maybe that's why XLS series carry 0.5% or <0.5% THD. It's a compromise that the designer is willing to take. Again, that's my guess. If one ask me if XLS is the best thing since slice bread, that would be a no. I still own big heavy monoblocks and I don't think they are leaving my house soon. But it's pretty impressive to see that much power being pack into 1U height that weights 11lbs with frequency response of 20 Hz to 20 kHz): +0 dB, 1 dB @1W yet has 103dB SNR. I think they couldn't done it at this price point without going the IC approach. It retail so little five sets cost me lesser than one of my used Parasound A21 smile I admit, it feels good to be cheap sometimes lol.

-Howard

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#405066 - 06/04/14 06:02 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: BobKay]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: BobKay

Howard, dude, I thought you said you weren't going to bore
us! I was just beginning to trust you. This sets us back.


Guilty as charged. It is pretty boring blush blush

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#405069 - 06/04/14 07:16 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Crimson Wrath Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 86
Loc: NC
turbo, have you listened to the Parasound JC 1 monoblocks to compare them to the A21s you were using? Lots of people say the sound is even better.
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#405072 - 06/04/14 07:55 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Crimson Wrath]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: Crimson Wrath
turbo, have you listened to the Parasound JC 1 monoblocks to compare them to the A21s you were using? Lots of people say the sound is even better.


Yes as matter in fact a really good friend of mine owns a pair and they are wonderful amps to listen to and I do believe they better than A21. But again, different room, different speakers.

This is what I am currently run with my B&W 804 Diamond. Accuphase A-200 x 2 (pure class A mono amp & 132dB SNR)

http://www.accuphase.com/model/a-200.html

and yes they cost me an arm and leg plus a kidney.

I also plan to sell my B&W 804D and move to a B&W 800D instead.

Cheers

Howard


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#405073 - 06/04/14 08:17 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
@Turbo

Honestly I wasn't trying to put down the XLS, I just made an off hand comment that was taken the wrong way, sometimes the inside words come outside. I am just a regular guy and I have limited funds and also just want my equipment to get along without too much grief. Also I think I got this conversation mixed in with one that Oakvillemat was having and got some facts cross threaded. From what I read , it is like you said, class D has come a long way but im not sure the audiophools are ready to get on board. smile Honestly I am at a disadvantage since my hearing is pretty much crap now and the XLS would probably work just fine but being old school I want what I pay for to be big and heavy LOL.

Richard
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DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#405077 - 06/04/14 10:43 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Socketman]
Crimson Wrath Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 86
Loc: NC
If you don't pull your back while trying to bring your amp into your listening room, then the amp isn't worth using grin


Edited by Crimson Wrath (06/04/14 10:43 PM)
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#405078 - 06/04/14 10:54 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
I was looking at a XPR5 and it comes on a pallet. I would have to bring our forklift home LOL
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#405080 - 06/05/14 12:51 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Socketman]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: Socketman
Honestly I wasn't trying to put down the XLS,


Don't worry it's not like I own Crown stock or anything.

But I got an idea for fun, I am going to disguise my XLR2500 by placing it in a heavy aluminum chassis and see if my audiophile friends will like them better... Pure experiment! :P

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#405081 - 06/05/14 12:52 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: Crimson Wrath
If you don't pull your back while trying to bring your amp into your listening room, then the amp isn't worth using grin


Amen to that.

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#405088 - 06/05/14 10:32 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...


I am going to put XLS2500 in one of these(40lbs) with custom laser engraved logo so that my friends won't suspect anything. They look pretty substantial and should impress a lot of people.

This enclosure should be fairly good for passive cooling too. We will see...

-Howard

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#405089 - 06/05/14 12:11 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
J. B. Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1269
Loc: Quebec, Canada
Iloveturbo quote: "http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4459&#entry16750

this link gives me this kind of info:
kwF0:gC&2;),Ɏf}{,9yrrx@CVU_hMřYqL}㿝>s6N'ѓcEx;n3zx>[z< R < 0z^}4Lɇ(aZ~Իs/, Ga0O`̽p$a<vʞ$yϛStod4̼4D64¨.Ώ:C{6d"e!fy0:.c!-0?n|W5N`zd>\b$>UO'^}#TMegpR͂r|Hn<%ӳ_W,,1EL6`%

can you translate so we can all benefit?
_________________________
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#405091 - 06/05/14 12:32 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Turbo's English is pretty damn good, why cant you read tiwaneese LOL
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#405093 - 06/05/14 12:58 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: J. B.]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: J. B.

can you translate so we can all benefit?


wow.... how the hell did that happen? haha... Here, lets try this again.

http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4459

I give up if this still doesn't work smile

-Howard

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#405100 - 06/05/14 03:10 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Originally Posted By: iloveturbo
Originally Posted By: Socketman
Honestly I wasn't trying to put down the XLS,


Don't worry it's not like I own Crown stock or anything.

But I got an idea for fun, I am going to disguise my XLR2500 by placing it in a heavy aluminum chassis and see if my audiophile friends will like them better... Pure experiment! :P



This should be funny I am sure. I hope you follow through it will be a great prank on your friends . Something I have toyed with in my mind was having the ability to switch out someone's amp without their knowledge and see if they actually notice a difference. This would be the ultimate blind test in my opinion.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#405112 - 06/05/14 08:38 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1017
That would be mean
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#405115 - 06/05/14 10:26 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: brwsaw]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Originally Posted By: brwsaw
That would be mean


Potentially embarrassing depending on your stance of whether all amps sound the same.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#405117 - 06/05/14 11:12 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Socketman]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Update:

After some research, I settled on a Yamaha CX-A5000 as my pre. Since this is going to be a 50/50 HT and music. ESS SABRE32 is too good to pass up. I also like the fact yamaha runs cool. This is also important as my Onkyo runs hot. The only weakness is that sub doesn't have XLR output like AV8801 does. Not a big deal, but it would have been nice to have that as I do not plan to . The room correction software that comes with yamaha also is somewhat controversial. For fine tuning I plan to use REW with MiniDSP UMIK-1 anyway.

-Howard

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#405118 - 06/05/14 11:30 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
The Yamaha is a nice preamp and a really good price and it is on my short list as well. The AV8801 is at the top but so is its price. I would really like to see how the emotive xmc-1 works out should it actually ever see the light of day. I just received a Antimode 8033s II and will try it this weekend and make my first attempt at using the room correction portion of REW . If I find there is an improvement I will move up to a mini dsp eventually. If I can take the sub eq out of the equation that will change which pre I choose. I am sure it will be great, I read some great magazine reviews about it.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#405119 - 06/05/14 11:31 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Socketman]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: Socketman
Originally Posted By: brwsaw
That would be mean


Potentially embarrassing depending on your stance of whether all amps sound the same.


Not all the amps will sound the same regardless of topology/class IMO. There are always the good , the bad, and the ugly ones. My guess is that if money is no object then everyone's choice would be vastly different. When reality factors in, the diminish return on investment is always going to be different for everyone. I have tons of friends who think I am crazy to even consider using pro amp in my setup. But again I am these are most likely same people probably laugh at me for spending that much money on audio brand they never heard before called Axiom smile I based the purchase on solid spec, price per watt, not brand or assumption. If Crown XLS doesn't work out or they don't live up to my expectation, I will sell them, as simple as that smile

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#405138 - 06/06/14 01:23 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Howard, I appreciate your posts and enjoy following your journey.

Cheers!
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#405165 - 06/07/14 12:39 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: brwsaw]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1017
Originally Posted By: brwsaw
That would be mean



I'm just thinking how pissed I'd be to find out someone had messed with my system.

I don't even tell people where the remotes are kept or how to use them.
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#405619 - 06/18/14 12:07 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Update:

Spoke to Brent and was told my speakers are in the chamber testing and should be on the way to me soon. In the meantime, I received the Crown XLS units. Few quick camera shots...







what, no banana plugs?


I don't think so :-) Time to break out my favorite tool.


Mission accomplished.

Tomorrow I will open this sucker and see what the fuss is all about. I ran a quick test (iphone to RCA) to confirm everything is in working order. Yes, this thing sounded wonderfully with M80 paired in dual mono setup. 2400W X 2! I think this is a little overkill.

-Howard

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#405620 - 06/18/14 12:19 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
J. B. Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1269
Loc: Quebec, Canada
it's not overkill, but spare power which you never know how much of it you will need next time.
short to very short peaks in the signal can easily be 10-20 dB higher than the average value.
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or: Axiom Gallery

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#405630 - 06/18/14 06:09 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: J. B.]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: J. B.
it's not overkill, but spare power which you never know how much of it you will need next time.
short to very short peaks in the signal can easily be 10-20 dB higher than the average value.


True. Maybe that's why XLS sounded so wonderful as I have done more listening in the past 6 hours. I hooked the OPPO 105D directly to the amp via XLR and I must say I was really enjoying the sound that came out of the 11lbs package!

-Howard

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#405662 - 06/19/14 01:16 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Howard, I think I saw pictures of your new speakers on the Axiom FB page yesterday. Eggshell? They're gorgeous.
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#405680 - 06/20/14 03:07 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: tomtuttle]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Howard, I think I saw pictures of your new speakers on the Axiom FB page yesterday. Eggshell? They're gorgeous.


Tom, thx for the heads up. I just saw it on facebook too. Yes, it's eggshell white and I like it (I always liked clean look). Maybe I will refinish it to pearl white paint, dunno yet but we will see! The only downside to lighter color is that they reflect too much light back to my projection screen. But I made a special cover for it so when I am watching movie it's pitch dark smile

-Howard

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#405681 - 06/20/14 05:43 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
oakvillematt Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 182
Loc: Oakville, Canada
They do look gorgeous, but after seeing ONN's, I am a bit spoiled for liking having the black dust cap if you are having the speakers without the cover. I understand that the other speakers aren't that way so it's a bit harder to switch mid field.

But stunning all the same.
_________________________
Matt

People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

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#405689 - 06/21/14 01:35 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: oakvillematt]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: oakvillematt
They do look gorgeous, but after seeing ONN's, I am a bit spoiled for liking having the black dust cap if you are having the speakers without the cover. I understand that the other speakers aren't that way so it's a bit harder to switch mid field.

But stunning all the same.


Yeah Onn's black cap is very nice too.

-Howard

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#405690 - 06/21/14 01:55 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Update:

I finally had more time to play around with Crown Amp. I decided to CNC a new faceplate that will replace the original Crown one which will make it "look" nicer!

Overall shot


Everything lines up nicely. I like how they arrange the heatsink. Clever engineering.


Heart of the amp. Crown/TI drivecore chip


Power switch
http://www.solteam.com.tw/solteam/pdf/10/05_PS-5.pdf

That's where the first mod is going to take place. We are going to implement a different type of power button and as well as a handy remote 12V trigger :-)


I am going to monitor the max temp the heatsink will go to without the aid of fan and evaluate how to make this into passive cooling.

Also, The blue LED can be annoying so I am going to find out a way to disable that.


More to come...

-Howard




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#405733 - 06/24/14 07:27 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6802
Loc: PEI, Canada
Disable a blue LED ???
Blasphemy!!!

Sorry, I'm a sucker for blue LEDs. I won't even turn off the one in my car stereo and I'm sure it is actually reducing my nighttime vision.
_________________________
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#405736 - 06/24/14 10:27 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1017
Dimmer is better
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#405756 - 06/24/14 05:01 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Murph]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: Murph
Disable a blue LED ???
Blasphemy!!!

Sorry, I'm a sucker for blue LEDs. I won't even turn off the one in my car stereo and I'm sure it is actually reducing my nighttime vision.


Blue display is nice when you are doing the adjustment, but say if you are watching a movie via then it may not be so nice. Solution? Maybe using something simple to code like arduino to control the backlight. Say if you hit any button on the front panel it lid up the blue backlight for x secs. I think that would work the best in this situation.

-Howard

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#405757 - 06/24/14 08:16 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Originally Posted By: iloveturbo
Originally Posted By: Murph
Disable a blue LED ???
Blasphemy!!!

Sorry, I'm a sucker for blue LEDs. I won't even turn off the one in my car stereo and I'm sure it is actually reducing my nighttime vision.


Blue display is nice when you are doing the adjustment, but say if you are watching a movie via then it may not be so nice. Solution? Maybe using something simple to code like arduino to control the backlight. Say if you hit any button on the front panel it lid up the blue backlight for x secs. I think that would work the best in this situation.

-Howard


Um, electrical tape?

Just saying.... Makes LED's disappear instantaneously...

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#405758 - 06/24/14 09:16 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: dakkon]
oakvillematt Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 182
Loc: Oakville, Canada
Originally Posted By: dakkon

Um, electrical tape?

Just saying.... Makes LED's disappear instantaneously...


Reminds me of an older Saturday Night sketch. It was about middle age man. The line I remember is the difference between middle ages man and old aged man is that middle aged man knows how to stop that 12:00 flashing on the VHS. Duct Tape. layers of Duct Tape.
_________________________
Matt

People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

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#405765 - 06/25/14 02:42 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
I suppose electrical tape will do the trick. But it's a bit... hmm.. ghetto? smile

Since I am going to add 12V triggering into this unit anyway, make sense to incorporate auto dim backlight since it's easy to program that in since the Arduino board have those input/output built-in. I am most likely going to end up uing 8Mhz ATMEGA 328P as it consumes about 65mW which is perfect for my application.

-Howard

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#405777 - 06/25/14 01:28 PM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
oakvillematt Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 182
Loc: Oakville, Canada
As you are adding in a 12V trigger.. I an wondering if you can give me some info about that implementation.

Is the 12V DC present all the time that the amp needs to be powered on, an when the 12V cuts, the amp powers down to it's standby state?

I am wondering as cooling is a big problem for my receiver. I was thinking as a 80mm computer fan doens't really pull that much power. Would you be able to run the 12v fan off one of those triggers? If it was getting the 12v constant when the receiver is powered on, then you could easily use it to add in a small fan to the case to cool down the unit.

Just thinking out loud for myself.
_________________________
Matt

People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

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#405791 - 06/26/14 03:10 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: oakvillematt]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: oakvillematt
As you are adding in a 12V trigger.. I an wondering if you can give me some info about that implementation.

Is the 12V DC present all the time that the amp needs to be powered on, an when the 12V cuts, the amp powers down to it's standby state?

I am wondering as cooling is a big problem for my receiver. I was thinking as a 80mm computer fan doens't really pull that much power. Would you be able to run the 12v fan off one of those triggers? If it was getting the 12v constant when the receiver is powered on, then you could easily use it to add in a small fan to the case to cool down the unit.

Just thinking out loud for myself.


Hi Matt,

There are several ways we can achieve this.

a) constant 12V feeding to power on the amp and when the 12V is no longer presented, it shuts off the amp.

b) attached a mic and set a voice command to turn on the amp. I know it's a bit cheesy but heck it's hand free operation and for that I approve!!

See sample video
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SThR-jyoplk#t=203

As for the 12V, think of it like you are using a 120V to 12V adaptor inside of the amp. (I am using RS-15-12 http://www.meanwell.com/search/RS-15/RS-15-spec.pdf) You are free to select the proper size adaptor (1A,2A...etc) to power off your fan or whatever you need that require 12V to operate.

Hopefully this answers your question.

-Howard

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#405826 - 06/27/14 08:19 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6802
Loc: PEI, Canada
Originally Posted By: iloveturbo
Originally Posted By: Murph
Disable a blue LED ???
Blasphemy!!!

Sorry, I'm a sucker for blue LEDs. I won't even turn off the one in my car stereo and I'm sure it is actually reducing my nighttime vision.


Blue display is nice when you are doing the adjustment, but say if you are watching a movie via then it may not be so nice. Solution? Maybe using something simple to code like arduino to control the backlight. Say if you hit any button on the front panel it lid up the blue backlight for x secs. I think that would work the best in this situation.

-Howard


Unless it's a movie about
Giant, Blue LED, Killer Robots from Space!!!!!!!
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#405827 - 06/27/14 08:52 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: Murph]
iloveturbo Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Taiwan (yes, that's in Asia :)...
Originally Posted By: Murph
Originally Posted By: iloveturbo
Originally Posted By: Murph
Disable a blue LED ???
Blasphemy!!!

Sorry, I'm a sucker for blue LEDs. I won't even turn off the one in my car stereo and I'm sure it is actually reducing my nighttime vision.


Blue display is nice when you are doing the adjustment, but say if you are watching a movie via then it may not be so nice. Solution? Maybe using something simple to code like arduino to control the backlight. Say if you hit any button on the front panel it lid up the blue backlight for x secs. I think that would work the best in this situation.

-Howard


Unless it's a movie about
Giant, Blue LED, Killer Robots from Space!!!!!!!


LOL... alright you win smile

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#405829 - 06/27/14 09:29 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6802
Loc: PEI, Canada
heheheh. I'm starting two weeks vacation at days end so I'm in a silly mood.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#405962 - 07/05/14 01:59 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
MichaelTrottar Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/10/13
Posts: 84
It is 10lbs the Adage is 58, so I think they serve 2 entirely different marketplaces. Still in reality that for most hearing we rarely surpass even a few.
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#406407 - 08/01/14 03:51 AM Re: M100 or LFR1100 [Re: iloveturbo]
klarakos Offline
newbie

Registered: 08/01/14
Posts: 3
They customize the DSP for the center that it will be used with. In other words, if you ordered one for your LFRs and your VP180, the DSP would be built for the LFRs and the VP180. If someone ordered one for their M80s and a VP160, it would be built for those.
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